[ QUOTE ]
If Tankers are "holding back" for fear of hurting people, they wouldn't be unleashing it on masses of lesser enemies in AoE attacks. Guys who specialize in fighting guys weaker than them are bullies by my definition. Be it Giant Man or Colossus or the Thing, the lesser enemies swarming them are the ones they are going to use extra care on. The big bad is the one they cut loose against.
You say you understand this conceptually, but you don't act like it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's because I understand this is a game, and the best designs are kept as simple as possible. The "holding back on minions, unleash on bosses" seems like an unnecessary level of complexity, plus it doesn't always make sense (such as versus robots.)
The game is already pretty easy for Tankers, adding more damage just makes it easier. I realize some would like that, but I think some challenge is needed to keep the game interesting. Saying "the game is even easier for Scrappers!" isn't a good argument either, because again, you're just asking for a less interesting game.
But with powerset and archetype proliferation, I do believe Tankers/Scrappers/Brutes could use some tweaking to keep them a unique experience. Making Tankers more Scrapper-like makes them less unique.
[ QUOTE ]
I would say the HULK doesn't give a rat's [censored] about who or what he's hitting when he gets pissed.
[/ QUOTE ]
The same Hulk who shields a puppy from a falling robot, shares Hostess Fruit Pies with random groups of children and tolerates Rick Jones, one of the most annoying sidekicks in history?
.
[ QUOTE ]
The game is already pretty easy for Tankers, adding more damage just makes it easier.
[/ QUOTE ]
And adding better AoE just makes them better tractors for farming. That's something the game and Tankers don't need.
[ QUOTE ]
But with powerset and archetype proliferation, I do believe Tankers/Scrappers/Brutes could use some tweaking to keep them a unique experience. Making Tankers more Scrapper-like makes them less unique.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then they can get a unique mechanic that's not Criticals or Fury that allows them to be heavy hitters and closer to their comic book and CoH lore counterparts.
Great_Briton said originally and Starsman agreed:
[ QUOTE ]
What seems obvious to me is that the Tankers - if we follow established Comic Book mythos - are designed for heavy damage one-on-one. The "Slug It And See" fighters. They're not particularly well-designed for fighting the masses. The X-Men send in Colossus to take out the single larger foe, for example.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm firmly behind that to the extent that I think Tankers need to be better at taking out the single big bad by laying down the massive hits and they do not need to be better at slaughtering masses of lesser foes.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5...avyhitters.jpg
.
This is not a superhero simulator, it is an MMO.
Stop comparing this game to comic behavior.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
[ QUOTE ]
Great_Briton said originally and Starsman agreed:
[ QUOTE ]
What seems obvious to me is that the Tankers - if we follow established Comic Book mythos - are designed for heavy damage one-on-one. The "Slug It And See" fighters. They're not particularly well-designed for fighting the masses. The X-Men send in Colossus to take out the single larger foe, for example.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm firmly behind that to the extent that I think Tankers need to be better at taking out the single big bad by laying down the massive hits and they do not need to be better at slaughtering masses of lesser foes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I understand that complaint, it's been repeated many times over the years. But Scrappers have been "boss killers" for five years and Tankers have been at home in mobs of enemies for five years. This isn't going to change.
Tankers are the team powerhouse like Colossus, the Thing, etc. but they are filtered into a game, where all the characters must be balanced. That means the "tough guy" can't also be the "high damage" guy, but it doesn't make them any less powerful. It just means there's more to power than high damage numbers.
My Blaster does crazy damage and he still doesn't feel as powerful as my Tank.
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers are the team powerhouse like Colossus, the Thing, etc. but they are filtered into a game, where all the characters must be balanced. That means the "tough guy" can't also be the "high damage" guy, but it doesn't make them any less powerful. It just means there's more to power than high damage numbers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed! I say that an Intimidation bar be added to all mobs that is numerically equal to their health points. This bar would only be affected by controls, debuffs and taunt effects and would be a factor in defeating a mob.
For example, you have a mob with a health/intimidation value of 1000 points. You can defeat this mob by doing 1000 points of damage or scoring 1000 intimidation points or any combination of the two that totals 1000 points.
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that complaint, it's been repeated many times over the years.
[/ QUOTE ]
That should be an indicator of something.
[ QUOTE ]
But Scrappers have been "boss killers" for five years and Tankers have been at home in mobs of enemies for five years. This isn't going to change.
[/ QUOTE ]
Scrappers having a slightly better chance to Crit against a Boss and up is the only thing anyone can point to as being evidence that Scrappers are supposed to be "boss killers". If you're going to dig up four year old quotes as proof of this, I'm going to dig up four year old quotes as proof that Tankers are supposed to be "devastating hand to hand combatants" and are supposed to have earth crushing damage like the Hulk.
Scrappers are all around killers. They excel at damaging everything currently.
But the point you seem to miss, is improving Tanker single target damage, to any con, Boss or otherwise, doesn't take anything away from Scrappers. Scrappers would be just as good at killing Bosses as they ever were.
And Scrapprs are going to have to share the damage dealing limelight with Brutes and Stalkers (the latter being much better Boss Killers with their true ST specialzation), so the idea of "stepping on the toes" of the generalst of melee damage dealing at this point with Tankers having improved ST damage is ludicrous.
[ QUOTE ]
Tankers are the team powerhouse like Colossus, the Thing, etc. but they are filtered into a game, where all the characters must be balanced.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's correct. The devs just need to create the right balanced mechanic to allow them to play and perform like the heavy hitting power houses you agree they're supposed to be.
Instead of giving them all out better general damage to every enemy con in the game like a Scrapper, which would clearly be unbalanced considering their survivability, how about giving them less obtrusive single target damage to some of the rarer cons, like Bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs?
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that complaint, it's been repeated many times over the years.
[/ QUOTE ]
That should be an indicator of something.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is, they are called pipe dreams.
[ QUOTE ]
Instead of giving them all out better general damage to every enemy con in the game like a Scrapper, which would clearly be unbalanced considering their survivability, how about giving them less obtrusive single target damage to some of the rarer cons, like Bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs?
[/ QUOTE ]
How does this help make tankers more effective when they are running solo?
How does it address their endurance woes?
How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
Yeah yeah yeah
That quote is four years WRONG too. Quit digging it up and using it for your private crusade.
You complain more about that one sentence than everyone else on these boards complains about the Cathedral of Pain trial
AND THAT WAS PRINTED ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CoV BOX
.
a point YOU missed
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand that complaint, it's been repeated many times over the years.
[/ QUOTE ]
That should be an indicator of something.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whatever it indicates doesn't matter. They're not going to massively overhaul Scrappers and Tankers at this point.
[ QUOTE ]
The devs just need to create the right balanced mechanic to allow them to play and perform like the heavy hitting power houses you agree they're supposed to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've been playing a heavy-hitting powerhouse Superman homage for years. Good times.
[ QUOTE ]
How does this help make tankers more effective when they are running solo
[/ QUOTE ]
It allows them more damage, which is the area Tankers suffer from the most solo.
[ QUOTE ]
or address their endurance woes?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fewer attacks to defeat foes means more efficient endurance use.
[ QUOTE ]
How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Brutes get very high ST damage and very high AoE damage, but it's all back loaded DPS.
Scrappers get high ST damage and AoE damage, it's evenly loaded DPS with punctuated bursts.
Stalkers get very high ST front loaded burst damage as well as high evenly loaded DPS punctuated with bursts.
Tankers would get high ST damage, medium AoE damage, evenly loaded.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Noted.
I still don't believe anything like this is necessary.
[/ QUOTE ]
then can you explain why invul is ok to buff to s/l cap with tough and fire is not?
cause im STILL trying to figure out how you justify that one
[/ QUOTE ]
Individual Balancing issue.
FA is Scrankery and has a Consistent Spammable Heal. Invuln does not retain such an ability.
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever it indicates doesn't matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
To these devs, likely not.
[ QUOTE ]
They're not going to massively overhaul Scrappers and Tankers at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't have to touch Scrappers as far as this issue goes.
The only massive overhaul required is the devs' current mindset that Tankers should be decoys. For Tankers, the only thing called for is the right inherent power to be added to them.
I'd back the one in the OP for that with the right changes and some more work put into it.
[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing a heavy-hitting powerhouse Superman homage for years.
[/ QUOTE ]
Correction.
You've been pretending to play a heavy hitting powerhouse while in actuality he hits weaker than Daredevil.
Affleck's Daredevil.
[ QUOTE ]
Good times.
[/ QUOTE ]
No standards?
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Instead of giving them all out better general damage to every enemy con in the game like a Scrapper, which would clearly be unbalanced considering their survivability, how about giving them less obtrusive single target damage to some of the rarer cons, like Bosses, EBs, AVs and GMs?
[/ QUOTE ]
How does this help make tankers more effective when they are running solo
[/ QUOTE ]
It allows them more damage, which is the area Tankers suffer from the most solo.
[ QUOTE ]
or address their endurance woes?
[/ QUOTE ]
Fewer attacks to defeat foes means more efficient endurance use.
[ QUOTE ]
How does it make them stand out from brutes and scrappers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Brutes get very high ST damage and very high AoE damage, but it's all back loaded DPS.
Scrappers get high ST damage and AoE damage, it's evenly loaded DPS with punctuated bursts.
Stalkers get very high ST front loaded burst damage as well as high evenly loaded DPS punctuated with bursts.
Tankers would get high ST damage, medium AoE damage, evenly loaded.
.
[/ QUOTE ]
But only against bosses and above....
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
[ QUOTE ]
You've been pretending to play a heavy hitting powerhouse while in actuality he hits weaker than Daredevil.
Affleck's Daredevil.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a role-playing game, we're all "pretending".
For some reason, while most of us are playing superheroes, you're playing weak rodeo clowns.
There are three melee ATs you can go toe toe on four if you include stalkers.
All of em smack stuff.
Only tanks can take the brunt of an AVs fury with only SOs and no external teamate support.
Only tanks can reliably mitigate damage for an entire team through an inherent and two power picks(taunt/aggro toggle).
Call me what you will I agree with _Castle_ tanks are fine mechanically as an AT.
How well they hold up conceptually is dependent on the imagination of the player, not the devs.
For those with argumentative ADD. CONCEPT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MECHANICS.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
What astounds me is that every time Johnny rears his head, everyone falls into his trap and destroys the thread for him. When will the world learn that he's probably just another Twixt building up "research" for a paper or something at our expense.
Starsman - I support your idea as I support many Tank-improving concepts. While I agree it requires polish, I am afraid I don't really have anything I can add that hasn't already been mentioned once or twice here already. 
Edit: My post count is over NINE-HUNDRED!!!
Only eight-thousand and one-hundred posts left to go.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
The pulling off the kid gloves and going all out argument is useless. All of these example tankers such as Superman, Hulk, and The Thing who are displaying this are super strength. Super Strength already has it built into its set, its called rage. If you want that ability either Make a Super Strength tank and dont use rage all the time or make a brute.
If you want a more offensive hard hitting tank, roll Shield or Fire. Fire for sustained damage, Shield for burst damage.
The options are available to do what you wish. Sometimes the correct answer to 'I believe this should be an option' is 'Then take the option.'
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, look at the game's lore. The Tankers in the CoH lore aren't low damage decoys like player Tankers are.
Statesman? 'Nuff said.
The Back Alley Brawler?
Hero 1? Same deal.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is why you won't get the majority of the tanker forums behind you. And why when Starsman says it, people at least engage in civil discussion. You want to compare tanker balance to AVs. This seems rational to you, and that's why more people don't take you seriously.
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
Being the 'inspiration' for this idea (
) I just wanted to chime in.
I think Starsman's proposal is a good one. It's useful on Teams, and useful Solo. It makes the Taunt mechanic useful to Tankers while not taking anything away from the Brute/Scrapper variants.
An idea *I* had - which I won't create a new thread for - is somehow having a scale increase depending on the target's rank- the rationale is that the higher the rank, the harder the Tanker hero will hit, because the threat to the team is greater. This should - rightly - consider the NPC's level, too, adjusting the damage downwards where the NPC level is higher compared to the Tanker (or Team Average?).
This mechanic could be intergrated into Starsman's OP: the 'crit' depending on the rank. The balance(?) would be that as a target's rank increases, the greater the bonus, BUT offset by the target's relative level. An even-level, white con, Minion doesn't give the Tanker any bonus at all, while an AV gives the highest possible.
In essence, some kind of formula similar to: TargetRank - TargetCon + TauntFlag = D%
Unfortunately, I'm always full of ideas, but often I don't take into consideration how this would play out if it were Live. LOL
Referring back to the OP however, I would just like to add my /support.
[ QUOTE ]
What astounds me is that every time Johnny rears his head, everyone falls into his trap and destroys the thread for him. When will the world learn that he's probably just another Twixt building up "research" for a paper or something at our expense.
[/ QUOTE ]
When they realize the Government can't efficiently run health care?
[ QUOTE ]
Now, what does Gauntlet stands for? The name of our inherent was based off the classic dueling term Throw down the gauntlet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps someone has said this already, I've missed about three pages of the conversation but I thought the name of the power "gauntlet" referred to "running the gauntlet", namely having enemies on all side pummeling you.
This, as opposed to the glove.
[ QUOTE ]
Noted.
I still don't believe anything like this is necessary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ice Melee... single target damage is abysmal. Raise the damage on Frozen Touch.
Ice Ember