Why is Rage made so much better than Build Up Etc
By
Ahmon,
Posted on: 2009-07-20 20:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
[ QUOTE ]
RAGE
* ToHit +20% for 120s
* DMG(All Types) +80% for 120s [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* DMG(All Types) -9990% for 10s (after 120 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
* Defense -0.2 for 10s (after 120 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
Effect does not stack from same caster
* Endurance -0.25 (after 120 second delay) [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, I find the sheer annoyance of the -9990% damage(all) unbearable. I honestly don't know why it's so popular with such an annoying debuff.
Two minutes of build-up for ten seconds of debuff? Yes please.
I'd always thought that the SS attacks did less damage than equivalent recharge attacks in sets like Axe and War Mace, and that this balanced against Rage. Looking at red Tomax I see that I was wrong.
SS does have smaller faster attacks than these two weapon sets, and so less burst damage (until we get to KO Blow *cough*) so maybe that was the original idea?
Axe (for example) is burst damage, SS is DPS?
[ QUOTE ]
I'd always thought that the SS attacks did less damage than equivalent recharge attacks in sets like Axe and War Mace, and that this balanced against Rage. Looking at red Tomax I see that I was wrong.
SS does have smaller faster attacks than these two weapon sets, and so less burst damage (until we get to KO Blow *cough*) so maybe that was the original idea?
Axe (for example) is burst damage, SS is DPS?
[/ QUOTE ]
SS is all smashing damage which is why Rage is ok. Keep in mind War Mace and War Axe were still being ignored the last time they touched Rage.
It's broken. It was grandfathered in. The last time a harsher crash was tested, the b!$%^ing on the forum was deafening.
People like overpowered skills? Duh. The current crash is an utter joke, having a lesser per second cost than buildup-- particularly considering that the -defense is ignored when rage is stacked, which is incredibly easy to do.
[ QUOTE ]
Two minutes of build-up for ten seconds of debuff? Yes please.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I would rather have a -1000% recovery and -160% damage debuff for 10 seconds. Feels like a cop out to do such an extreme damage debuff value.
Someone told me that the defense debuff failing to appear when rage is stacked was fixed. Can anyone verify?
Be well, people of CoH.
If true, that'd be disastrous to many, many characters. I doubt that's something Castle is going to do without a major overhaul to the power.
Why would it be disastrous for the power to work as designed?
Be well, people of CoH.
Wait, are you talking about the defence debuff taking effect or the visual indicators failing to show up? The effect itself is debilitating to defence-based defensive sets if it can't be countered. The latter...I've never noticed, actually.
I like it being a little overpowered. You look at the comics and you see the toughest most powerful charcters are almost always the super strength characters. While other powers can be just as powerful when used with skill, someone with super strength can be a complete idiot and still smash you with a car or put thier fist thru your head.
My first 50 was a super strength/Invuln brute, and it was a great choice for my first because it was easy and aloud for a learning curve. I'm sure folks that don't like other people to farm, folks who PvP don't like it....but it doesn't bother me at all. Super Strength should be the strongest and easiest set in the game.
I meant the actual debuff. It's supposed to be part of the balance of rage. But when stacked, it fails to apply.
Agreed that this screws defense based sets far more than dam-res based sets, but Castle was supposed to deal with that at some point.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd always thought that the SS attacks did less damage than equivalent recharge attacks in sets like Axe and War Mace, and that this balanced against Rage. Looking at red Tomax I see that I was wrong.
SS does have smaller faster attacks than these two weapon sets, and so less burst damage (until we get to KO Blow *cough*) so maybe that was the original idea?
Axe (for example) is burst damage, SS is DPS?
[/ QUOTE ]
SS is all smashing damage which is why Rage is ok. Keep in mind War Mace and War Axe were still being ignored the last time they touched Rage.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, you're both wrong. Damage type has absolutely nothing to do with the way the various powers are balanced, except as a basic heuristic. If this were true, powers like Electrical Blast and Fire Blast, which have the least resisted damage types, would follow a different power formula than lethal and smashing damage sets. The powers in Super Strength follow the power formula (which determines recharge and endurance based on damage or vice verse, depending on which value they're starting with), so Rage isn't factored in there either.
Where Rage is nominally factored in is in the actual powers themselves from an actual play standpoint. Rage is incredibly powerful, as is KO Blow, but, if you begin looking at the DPA of the remaining attacks in the set, they're noticeably sub par. All of the powers still stay true to the power formula insofar as none of their recharges or endurance costs are higher than they're supposed to be, but they all have longer than usual animations which severely diminishes the actual DPS of the set. Haymaker is halfway decent, but Jab and Punch are utter rubbish.
This is important because, thanks to KO Blow's huge base damage, it's recharge is substantially longer, which means that the remaining attacks are going to have a greater effect upon DPS than KO Blow would otherwise (such as if the damage were less but the animation were faster giving the attack the same DPA but better recharge and endurance).
There isn't really a hard and fast formulaic point as to how Rage is factored in. This is one place where the devs' old habit of balancing a set based upon heuristics rather than formulas (especially when the formulas don't account for all variables) worked out quite well. Super Strength isn't too horribly powerful because, while it's got a couple gems, the rest of the set is pretty close to garbage when compared to what everyone else gets to play around with.
[ QUOTE ]
I meant the actual debuff. It's supposed to be part of the balance of rage. But when stacked, it fails to apply.
Agreed that this screws defense based sets far more than dam-res based sets, but Castle was supposed to deal with that at some point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I said he'd probably not fix that part of it without a complete overhaul of the entire power.
Or basically: that particular penalty is very unbalanced, and should be replaced with a different penalty. What, exactly, is the question. Probably why it's still the way it is for now.
If it alone is fixed, I'd actually be very pissed at Castle. Even while Dom PSW was blatantly broken, he left it until he had a chance to overhaul the entire power (well, the entire set...the entire AT...). Not a perfect example to set up precedence, but I hope you get the gist: fixing one part of a power that breaks many combinations of powers just to make it "WAI" is very, very bad.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two minutes of build-up for ten seconds of debuff? Yes please.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I would rather have a -1000% recovery and -160% damage debuff for 10 seconds. Feels like a cop out to do such an extreme damage debuff value.
[/ QUOTE ]
*cough*Sands of Mu vet power unenhanceable damage*cough*
Understood and agreed. I was more looking for verification that it remained as it was since I hadn't noticed the expected uproar such a change would likely create.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
I like it being a little overpowered. You look at the comics and you see the toughest most powerful charcters are almost always the super strength characters. While other powers can be just as powerful when used with skill, someone with super strength can be a complete idiot and still smash you with a car or put thier fist thru your head.
My first 50 was a super strength/Invuln brute, and it was a great choice for my first because it was easy and aloud for a learning curve. I'm sure folks that don't like other people to farm, folks who PvP don't like it....but it doesn't bother me at all. Super Strength should be the strongest and easiest set in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem I have with that is that Superstrength characters are naturally very accurate in this game due to the constant +to Hit from Rage. (Add in Invincibility if you're invulnerable and its even worse)
Which comic character can I see most easily swiping at a Rikti drone and missing as it zips around him? The Thing! An SS/Inv Tanker.
Now I think about it, taking the To hit out of Rage would be a very nice balance. You're strong and get a perma damage buff, but no To Hit debuffs, unlike the skilled weapon wielders who have Build Up.
And you can't really make one power better than all the others in a game, no matter what the logic. Thats just bad design , especially for a multiplayer game.
[ QUOTE ]
Why would it be disastrous for the power to work as designed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Make the -20% defense debuff resistable by the toon's defense debuff resistance
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it being a little overpowered. You look at the comics and you see the toughest most powerful charcters are almost always the super strength characters. While other powers can be just as powerful when used with skill, someone with super strength can be a complete idiot and still smash you with a car or put thier fist thru your head.
My first 50 was a super strength/Invuln brute, and it was a great choice for my first because it was easy and aloud for a learning curve. I'm sure folks that don't like other people to farm, folks who PvP don't like it....but it doesn't bother me at all. Super Strength should be the strongest and easiest set in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem I have with that is that Superstrength characters are naturally very accurate in this game due to the constant +to Hit from Rage. (Add in Invincibility if you're invulnerable and its even worse)
Which comic character can I see most easily swiping at a Rikti drone and missing as it zips around him? The Thing! An SS/Inv Tanker.
Now I think about it, taking the To hit out of Rage would be a very nice balance. You're strong and get a perma damage buff, but no To Hit debuffs, unlike the skilled weapon wielders who have Build Up.
And you can't really make one power better than all the others in a game, no matter what the logic. Thats just bad design , especially for a multiplayer game.
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah but it's not really overpowered, it's just easy. A skilled player can take any set and make it just as good as SS. I outplay SS brutes on most teams I join with a DB brute. I also kill alot of SS brutes/tanks in PvP. If it was really overpowered, I couldn't do that. I think the set just takes very little thought to be effective and is great for farming even without an IO'd build. That's why so many folks are drawn to it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would it be disastrous for the power to work as designed?
[/ QUOTE ]
Make the -20% defense debuff resistable by the toon's defense debuff resistance
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not a bad idea.
Be well, people of CoH.
if you are going to do that, just remove the debuff, oh wait, that's stupid.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it being a little overpowered. You look at the comics and you see the toughest most powerful charcters are almost always the super strength characters. While other powers can be just as powerful when used with skill, someone with super strength can be a complete idiot and still smash you with a car or put thier fist thru your head.
My first 50 was a super strength/Invuln brute, and it was a great choice for my first because it was easy and aloud for a learning curve. I'm sure folks that don't like other people to farm, folks who PvP don't like it....but it doesn't bother me at all. Super Strength should be the strongest and easiest set in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
One problem I have with that is that Superstrength characters are naturally very accurate in this game due to the constant +to Hit from Rage. (Add in Invincibility if you're invulnerable and its even worse)
Which comic character can I see most easily swiping at a Rikti drone and missing as it zips around him? The Thing! An SS/Inv Tanker.
Now I think about it, taking the To hit out of Rage would be a very nice balance. You're strong and get a perma damage buff, but no To Hit debuffs, unlike the skilled weapon wielders who have Build Up.
And you can't really make one power better than all the others in a game, no matter what the logic. Thats just bad design , especially for a multiplayer game.
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah but it's not really overpowered, it's just easy. A skilled player can take any set and make it just as good as SS. I outplay SS brutes on most teams I join with a DB brute. I also kill alot of SS brutes/tanks in PvP. If it was really overpowered, I couldn't do that. I think the set just takes very little thought to be effective and is great for farming even without an IO'd build. That's why so many folks are drawn to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I get what you're saying. I'd agree with that.
[ QUOTE ]
I meant the actual debuff. It's supposed to be part of the balance of rage. But when stacked, it fails to apply.
Agreed that this screws defense based sets far more than dam-res based sets, but Castle was supposed to deal with that at some point.
[/ QUOTE ]
The def debuff fails to apply if another Rage has been activated, except if you zone. If you activate Rage, zone somewhere, then reactivate Rage before the 1st runs out, the def debuff gets applied no matter what.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two minutes of build-up for ten seconds of debuff? Yes please.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally I would rather have a -1000% recovery and -160% damage debuff for 10 seconds. Feels like a cop out to do such an extreme damage debuff value.
[/ QUOTE ]
*cough*Sands of Mu vet power unenhanceable damage*cough*
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, vet powers are uneffected by the -damage, and if you happen to be FA you can use Burn during the rage crash and once it is over the Burn damage will jump back up on its own.
Edit: Its the endurance part that gets me.
I'm curious what balances out Super Strength with other Primaries and Secondaries that it gets a better than build up that can be double and triple stacked and fairly easily made perma. For most builds the crash is livable. I'm not trying to nerf rage, just ask why everything else pales in comparison. I also wonder why Build Up was repeated so often instead of spreading out Rage, Sould Drain, etc to other powers