Look to Ryzom for how player content should be

It's a sandbox MMO that was built from the beginning to support player scripted content. That's right, actual control over scripting, environment layout, everything that the actual devs use to create stuff save for uploading new assets.

Do they care if people use them to farm? Why would they? It's not the kind of game that was designed to string people along with grinds and endless pursuit of special loot, and neither has CoH been that kind of game. You don't need to artificially string people along with grinds when there's actual content to experience.

You might be at the point of writing off CoH's custom content as a failure because 90% of it involves farming, but you must recognize why it has come to farming, and the reasons are not a strike against the expansion of custom content or against the idea itself.

1. We don't have enough freedom to craft a unique experience. Since really the only thing we can do is get creative with text and enemy costumes, our ability to tell an interesting interactive story is almost nill. Without event scripting, mob placement, object placement, etc, there is not much we can do to make out custom content competitive with simple grind maps.

2. The problem of CoH's level system. The level system was flawed in it's original design because player's don't start to have interesting characters until halfway through, and don't really feel complete until they get near 50. THe gameplay might be fun, but the actual leveling is a lot more painful than it justifies. Which leads people to find any way they can to farm (and there was plenty of farming prior to CC).

3. After hitting 50, we now have to farm for cash to IO out. So this prevents us from just enjoying the content once we hit 50.

Personally I wouldn't mind if everyone had a short farming journey to 50, but then spent all their time playing through well crafted custom content while building their character up with IOs, eventually using it in PvP.
But supergroup based PvP still hasn't be done right, and unless we get better custom content scripting it's going to be difficult for it to be appealing enough to the point where people say "I think I'd rather sacrifice some XP/Inf per hour in order to do something interesting".

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I can't speak for anyne else because I am not anyone else. I do not like farming or PL'n, I have three 50's and it took me 4 years to them to 50.

I also do not go for uber hidden special loot, I do fine with the regular IO's...Set IO's are for show and PvP and in a game where PvP is dead ,there is no need for me to farm or PL.

On the contrary, I actually like to level a toon from 1-50; I find it the mos t fun.

I feel that if the devs set limits to how much an item can go on the markets, then yea it can quelch the farming for salvage/recipies and the such. The only real reason people farm or PL' is to use those coveted items.

If the devs would just regular the auction house and BM then we have some way to control farming infirectly.

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http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/

[ QUOTE ]
I feel that if the devs set limits to how much an item can go on the markets, then yea it can quelch the farming for salvage/recipies and the such.

[/ QUOTE ]Setting a maximum price would mean supplies would simply go quicker, meaning you'd have to farm (/grind more/etc) to have a chance to get the items you wanted.

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The only real reason people farm or PL' is to use those coveted items.

[/ QUOTE ]No it's not. People farmed and PL'd before those items even existed, so that theory is obviously complete and total bunk. I even know people that'd PL their character but still wouldn't bother with anything more than common IOs.

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Quick Reply:

Right, well, the first problem here is, guess what? This is not Ryzom! Holy crap! Can you believe it?

What that means is that we can't go ahead and assume that doing things Ryzom's way will work here.

I'd like to see some hard data on the claim that 90% of AE is farming. I'm in the Architect pretty much every day, and I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a farm mission in the list. I've seen some badly-written missions, but no farms. The claim that we can't "craft a unique experience" is false. The Dev's Choice and Hall of Fame arcs all seem to be unique. No one's even going to look at the farm missions I never seem to run into unless they're farmers, and farmers don't give a care about storylines, so a mission with an actual script doesn't have to compete for players against farm runs. Different target audiences, you see?

Lastly, no one has to use IOs. No, no you don't. If you want them, plan ahead. That's what I do. My Brute has almost all the IOs she'll need at 50 stashed in a storage bin in my SG base, and she's not even high enough in level to slot them yet. Most of the Infamy that funded them came from normal game-play, the rest from selling rare drops on the Black Market. Not a single Infamy, XP Point, or drop farmed.

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BackAlleyBrawler: I can't facepalm this post hard enough.
ShoNuff: If sophisticated = bro-mantically emo-tastic, then I'm going to keep to my Shonen loving simplicity dammit.

Your problem is that you make the assumption that just because it's a different MMO that there is nothing to be learned from it. You're wrong.

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Except that ... we're not playing Ryzom. That game and this one are, to my knowledge, remarkably different from start to finish.

You said it yourself: it was built from the ground up to support something that THIS game has only had for less than a quarter of a year. That alone should clue you in: this game can't necessarily pick up any useful bits from that one - they are completely different monsters. Move along.

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

Except that... Mindlessly dismissing whatever lessons their system has to offer only on the basis that they are different games, without doing any research on the subject for yourself to determine whether or not that is the case, is counterproductive to a discussion on this topic.

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First of all you are making up statistics. Where did you get 90% from? Second, points 1 and 2 are purely subjective and I happen to disagree with you. Third, point three is just plain incorrect. You can disagree all you want, but it is a fact that you do not have to farm to IO out a character.

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[ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for anyne else because I am not anyone else.

[/ QUOTE ] Oh really?

Then what is this:
[ QUOTE ]
The only real reason people farm or PL' is to use those coveted items.

[/ QUOTE ] Sure looks like you're trying to speak for other people when you tell us their reasons for doing something.

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2. The problem of CoH's level system. The level system was flawed in it's original design because player's don't start to have interesting characters until halfway through, and don't really feel complete until they get near 50. THe gameplay might be fun, but the actual leveling is a lot more painful than it justifies. Which leads people to find any way they can to farm (and there was plenty of farming prior to CC).

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That's a load of nonsense. Remove the levelling system and this game becomes pointless. Half the fun to be had from playing this game, or indeed any game with a level progression, is watching a character grow and mature, going, yes, from absolute weakling to really, really strong. You're under some false impression that the only reason people play this game is to find interesting stories and encounters, completely forgetting the fact that it is, after all, a game first and foremost.

There is this myth going around that D&D or whatever first introduced levels and now all game designers are blindly following without giving a thought to improving this unnecessary, outmoded mechanic... But that's all it ever was - a myth. Levelling is a powerful mechanic that gives games a very clear sense of progression, and believe it or not, that's what some people actually like. There's something to be said about games that start you off with all abilities you're ever going to have, but even THEY present you with a progression of difficulty that requires you to develop better and smarter ways to use these abilities.

Frankly, if your characters aren't interesting to you until mid way-through, then you're doing it wrong, and if they don't feel complete until level 50, then your expectations are out of proportion with the actual game. My characters are interesting from level 1 to level 50, and they're complete as soon as they are made. They get better, of course, but at no point have I ever felt like my character was missing something he really, really should have. Not after figuring out how to play said character, anyway.

And, frankly, a well-made game isn't one that makes you choose between "XP/hour" and "something fun." It's a game where both are the same thing.

You feel there are lessons to be learned from Ryzom. I'm not sure I agree. It's like saying there are lessons to be learned Quake 3 Arena that can be applied to City of Heroes, or that lessons can be learned from Masters of Orion 2 that can be used here. Maybe there are, but it's pretty safe to dismiss them, because even IF there are, they're not specific to that game, but rather general ideas after the heavy conversion between design bases.

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Psst, Antimatter is Temporal. You won't win your argument with him.

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OTOH, it's pretty hard to lose an argument with him, aside from just getting fed up and quitting.

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

I think you are completely wrong.

My favorite time with a character is in the developing stages. That's level 1-30. During this time you are discovering the characters powers, learning tactics and generally shaping the character into what you want them to be.

PLing is for the ignorant!

AE farms are also for the ignorant!

The reason these draw more people than regular mission teams is clear to me. There is little to no actual work involved. You don't have to travel anywhere and sometimes you don't even have to fight. You just get to pick up power after power and see the kool pretty colors when you use them not really knowing what they do. That's pretty tempting to new players from games with the "End Content is the real game" ideals who don't realize that the real game here is between 1 and 50. There's no one in Atlas Park or Cap Au Diable screaming in broadcast that the game is about the journey, not the destination constantly, so obviously not everyone knows.

1. You can tell a fun interactive story very easily if you create your own enemies and stop using pre-built enemies to assure auto-SK. I do agree we should have some control over the spawning areas and it would be wonderful to be able to design our own maps, but that doesn't limit you to only being able to create farms. People create farms because they're unimaginative and ignorant, not because they are trying to be creative. There are a number of very good stories in the AE that people would have never heard of. They are not farms and they are not designed to force the auto-SK. They are not Developers Choice and they don't get a lot of stars. These are the real stories created in the AE, and despite their lack of play many of them are actually quite well written. But you wouldn't really care about those because they aren't speeding your way along to 50.

2. As mentioned above there is no flaw in the design of the leveling system. The flaw is in the mentality of the player, in their impatience and their misconception that they should feel like Superman right out of the box. You have to work your way up that ladder. Taking the elevator doesn't really help you understand your powers or any of the rest of the game any faster. In fact quite the opposite.

3. It's not really necessary to IO your character out the moment you reach 50. You can easily get along and play just fine with SOs or generic IOs. You are misreading something that is optional as necessary. It is not so.

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Was it unintentional that your ladder/elevator / superman analogy made me think:

Top of building. Two heroes, bantering.

One says "I'll see you in Eden then!" and flies off.

The other says "where's eden?" And falls, subsequently saying, "what's that stupid button do? I don't know how to flyyyyy!"

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

[ QUOTE ]
Was it unintentional that your ladder/elevator / superman analogy made me think:

Top of building. Two heroes, bantering.

One says "I'll see you in Eden then!" and flies off.

The other says "where's eden?" And falls, subsequently saying, "what's that stupid button do? I don't know how to flyyyyy!"

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

No, it was intentionally added for just that kind of mental image.

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Success, then.

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

It's simple math. By level 20 you have about 10 powers, five of which are probably devoted just to basic functionality like stamina and travel.
It's not until level 30 that you start to feel combat complete, and it's not until 40ish that you've probably got all the powers you need to have the most fun with your character.
Given the limited number of actual powers, and the way you only get one every two or three levels, CoH is a game that has very little sense of reward for leveling compared with every other MMO, where abilities are plentiful, characters start to be solid and interesting around 10, or 20 in higher cap systems, and there is alternative advancement as you go along.

Regardless of whatever your opinion may be on that, the fact is that most people don't enjoy the leveling process and just want to realize their character concept or start having fun with their character's full range of powers as soon as possible. Thus, the farm.

You're also losing sight of the whole reason this was even brought up: Which is that AE is not to blame for farming, the game design itself is responsible for pushing people to farm as fast as possible to the top without much regard for the content. That much is undeniable, as farming and power leveling has been a huge part of CoH since day one, in various forms.

Given that, there is ultimately no harm in allowing greater control over mission scripting, even if it does make for better farms, because farming is something that has been and always will be with us regardless of how effective it is - The best thing you can do for the game is to simply make it fun by providing players with the tools to script interesting missions that are worth experiencing for the sake of it (although you could cap exp per minute or something if you really wanted to).

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I have fun with my first two or three powers, don't know why it takes so long for some folks to feel "complete".

"Most people" DO enjoy leveling. Most people DO NOT powerlevel. Most people don't even have A fifty, you realize that, right? And not everyone relies upon farming to get levels. Pretty much "most" of the people who've been playing the game, all the ones I associate with and have for years now, do NOT farm or powerlevel, and almost all of them have produced insanely good quality arcs in the MA designed to impress us, not level us.

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Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed

[ QUOTE ]
Your problem is that you make the assumption that just because it's a different MMO that there is nothing to be learned from it. You're wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]and you make the similar mistake in assuming that because soemthing did work(and arguable point given ryzom's being pretty much nonexistant on the mmo stage) it will be generalizeable to other mmos. you yourself started by stating that ryzom was designed from the ground up to accomidate world building, since coh was not, can we really start drawing valid comparisons between them?

next, that nutty 90% farming statistic, care to back it up with something other than complaint threads? farming happens, no question there, it has since issue 1 and will continue to do so in this and other games, but assuming that 90% of ae content run is farming is a slap in the face of people who have worked hard within the limits of the system to make interesting content and dont make farms. there have been people who are willing to put in the effort and learn the system to the point that they make good stories, and to lump their effort with the farming trash is downright insulting.

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It's not until level 30 that you start to feel combat complete, and it's not until 40ish that you've probably got all the powers you need to have the most fun with your character.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself. By which I mean, don't try to speak for me and don't try to speak for a majority you don't represent. Try to use "I" instead of "you." It works wonders.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the limited number of actual powers, and the way you only get one every two or three levels, CoH is a game that has very little sense of reward for leveling compared with every other MMO, where abilities are plentiful, characters start to be solid and interesting around 10, or 20 in higher cap systems, and there is alternative advancement as you go along.

[/ QUOTE ]

False on its face. Firstly, it is ignorant to believe that only powers mark progress. Slots mark progress just as much, in fact a LOT more so than powers. The reason the 30s feel so much better isn't because of the powers you have and get. Hell, you start getting a power every three levels as opposed to every two. The reason is that you get a LOT of slots in the 30s, slots you simply didn't have anywhere near enough of in the 20s. Oftentimes people have suggested that they be allowed to trade a power pick for more slots. I suspect there's a reason behind this. Performance is a function of power picks and slotting. It's short-sighted to hold one above the other when both are functionally critical. I'm as happy as a lark every time I grab a new power, sure. I'm a lot more happy when I stop pretending I don't have it and get to actually USE it and have it DO something after I slot it.

As for the groundless statement about "other games" that are so much fun and complete from the start when everyone's complaint is how MMOs aren't fun until the level cap, I'd appreciate some actual examples and explanation. Without this, that statement is empty and meaningless.

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whatever your opinion may be on that, the fact is that most people don't enjoy the leveling process and just want to realize their character concept or start having fun with their character's full range of powers as soon as possible. Thus, the farm.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Most people don't enjoy the levelling process" is a statement that straddles the line between a bold-faced lie and a staggering absurdity. Unless you have actual evidence, making outlandishly unjustified claims serves no real purpose. That a lot of people farm - and you have no means of telling HOW MANY either in number or as a proportion - is in no means evidence of either everybody, or even a correlation between not liking the levelling process and farming. Coexistence does not prove correlation. It doesn't even imply it. In fact, from my experience most people farm not because they don't like the levelling process, but because they've been here for five years.

It's also interesting how you claim my opinion doesn't matter because your opinion is fact.

[ QUOTE ]
You're also losing sight of the whole reason this was even brought up: Which is that AE is not to blame for farming, the game design itself is responsible for pushing people to farm as fast as possible to the top without much regard for the content. That much is undeniable, as farming and power leveling has been a huge part of CoH since day one, in various forms.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. Give people a shortcut to the end and they WILL take it regardless of good or bad the game may actually be. It's a factor of human thinking. If there's something to be "gained," people will ignore the actual game and gain it. To think that you can prevent that by making the game abstractly better is simply incorrect.

Things fall down. You can hold them up, but that doesn't stop gravity from pulling them down. People look for the most efficient way to gain all rewards and get to the end. You can try and distract them with gameplay, but that will not stop them from rushing to the end. To believe otherwise is little more than wishful thinking. Such a utopia of a game where people have no desire to game the system and shortcut to the end is all well and good as an abstract goal, but as any utopia, it simply isn't real and cannot be real. No amount of changing the game will stop people powerlevelling. The only thing that will stop it is changing people, and that isn't an option.

[ QUOTE ]
Given that, there is ultimately no harm in allowing greater control over mission scripting, even if it does make for better farms, because farming is something that has been and always will be with us regardless of how effective it is - The best thing you can do for the game is to simply make it fun by providing players with the tools to script interesting missions that are worth experiencing for the sake of it (although you could cap exp per minute or something if you really wanted to).

[/ QUOTE ]

I was never against better scripting tools, but for the fact that the more complicated you make it, the fewer the people who are going to use it. It's a simple fact of game design - while there ARE people who revel in an overcomplicated, intricate system, the only way to sell a game mechanic to the general masses is to make it easy and simple, yet powerful in effect. I'll tell you right now - if mission design ever became a mix of making your own maps with a base-editor-lookalike and placing your spawns minion by minion, I'm never going to even consider touching the thing ever again. I'm simply not interested in game-modding.

Look at the base editor and how it was advertised to be the next step of customization after the costume editor. And while a few base builders have made AMAZING things with it, cost, complexity and limitations simply made it difficult to use for what it was intended to provide - more free-range customization. Not everyone enjoys a sandbox game.

Still, I can't object to more customization options for the Architect. More customization is always good, and if you'd stuck to suggesting that on its own merits without inventing intelligence-insulting "evidence" you would probably have been received a LOT better. Pretty much everybody will agree with more customization.

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I confess my first 50 was Powered Leveled. He was a Dark Dark scrapper the powers I enjoyed but once I hit that last ding I had no real connection with the character.

Basically he was just a tool I didn't put the time, effort, and creativity into him to keep him interesting. After he was done I focused on a new character and avoided Farms. The only time I farmed was when I out leveled a contact and still had a few to go before the next in the story.

When my second 50 dinged I deleted the fist. I still play that second 50 even changed the name here on the boards to his. Rotten Luck I bonded with because I took the time to play him all the way.

Now with the AE Farming is even easier. But let wait for a time and relax like every issue from Issue 1 to 15 there was a rush to play the NEW TOYS. I still remember the countless ITFs that were running. Before that it was the Rikti War zone.

Basically lets relax already the thrill of AE is burning off. Hopefully the people who use it to Power level and farm will figure out there mistake like I did.

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...people farmed before these IO's, they farmed HO's and they PL to get to the level to use HO's. they also farmed and PL for SO's.

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http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/

W/e! In the end this game is already dead so I am really learning to care less about the problems of this game

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http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/

General reply to the thread...

There are a couple things that I'm going to take from this discussion:

1) Not everyone plays this game the same way. A portion of the player base is only interested in having the ultimate shiny at the end to play with, either as a competitive measure, a trophy, or a means to another end (including some role-players). ANY tool that can be used to get them to an end-game character sooner or with more shiny is precisely what they want, and that is what makes them happy. Whether you agree with that or not is your opinion -- it is A way to enjoy this game. And this game has many ways to allow them to gain their most enjoyment, whether or not it's the way the Devs would have intended it, even if it's at odds with how other portions of the player base (majority, minority, or otherwise) would do things.

2) AE, as a tool, is capable of telling stories to a given level of complexity. Not everyone is going to take advantage of the entire toolbox to get what they want out of AE, or even need to (see #1 above). Not everyone is going to be satisfied with the complexity available within AE, from the standpoint of it not being detailed enough. Others are probably intimidated by how complex it is right now, and might refuse to take part in it because. If you somehow were able to increase AE's level of detail and refinement, the first group still wouldn't do more with it (unless it made it easier to get their shiny), the second group might likely still not be satisfied, and you might drive more people into the third group. This will happen nearly regardless of how simple or complex you make the system. There will always be a given number of people who will be perfectly satisfied with where the system is at any given moment, and then everybody else won't be -- that's just how it is.

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@NC Thunderbird, @Last Kid Picked
HELP! I can't stop making Alts! Up to 175 now, including: Lutadora, Tess LaCoille, Not Of This World, Lies Behind Stars, Redshift Monk.
Campaigning for title of official "Thread Killer" of the Suggestions & Ideas forum.

[ QUOTE ]
W/e! In the end this game is already dead so I am really learning to care less about the problems of this game

[/ QUOTE ]

Can

I

Have

Your

Stuff?

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