They don't ignore IOs. The balance with SOs when finding the baseline power level. They still use IOs to keep the upper bound of power in check.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Besides, isn't there a difference between a personal soft cap and the absolute hard cap obtainable with external buffs? IOs won't allow one to reach the hard cap, only the personal soft cap.
Even if one doesn't need buffs, they're still nice to have 
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If thier intent with IOs is allow people to reach softcap type numbers, they really need to throw alot more +res IOs out there. If not, then unfort. they need to take a look at taking out alot of the +def.
Just my observations...
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If you thought ED and GDN were bad, the amount of /RAGEQUIT people would unleash after a IO nerf like that would be equally catastrophic.
I'm sure they will add some sets in the future that address the need for more +res.
This is the only option really.
Between the choice of respeccing multiple toons 8 times each to remove all the +def IO sets or leaving the game due to the prospect of having to buy/do all those respecs, im sure many people would just take the latter option.
Wholesale nerfs like that just dont sit with most people who put that much work into their characters.
The thing is, Defense is much easier to get around than Resistance is. Defense is very sexy, I'll grant you that. But Resistance has a reliability that goes far beyond Defense.
Defense is negated by high Accuracy and ToHit. It is also completely bypassed on occasion by the Streak Breaker. Use some Yellows, Defense is essentially gone for a minute at a time. None of this is true with Resistance. There is no Inspiration you can use to bypass Resistance 100%. Resistance doesn't care about the Streak Breaker. It doesn't care about Accuracy or ToHit. Reds effectively reduce it slightly, but never really bypass it completely, not like Yellows and Defense.
Also, every mob and their mother has -Defense in this game. -Resist is much more rare.
So you see, high Defense is much more balanced out than high Resistance. This is most likely why Resistance is so much harder to come by than Defense in set bonuses.
P.S. Defense does have it's perks, of course. It's sexy. When you are missed you negate 100% of the damage from that attack. It acts as a second layer of ghetto mez/debuff protection (if the mez/debuff doesn't hit you, it can't affect you). Also, it's sexy. 
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Believe me, I'm not calling for nerf of +def IO sets, thats why I said unfortunaly they would need to look at taking some out. I would much rather see alot more +res IO sets. But...if you follow that to its logical conclusion, all of a sudden, def and resistance sets are back to the "old" days of not needing buffs to really increase thier survivability.
I mean, it could be argued right now that it "almost" completely useless to put a FF bubble on a softcapped defense toon, or many other "help you survive" type buffs.
On the other hand, ask a Electric brute (or any resistance set really) if he wants some extra S/L res buffs on him, and then watch him drool.
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I agree.
The IO set bonuses are heavily skewed in favour of Defence over Resistance, especially since the typed/positional defence double-bonus tweak recently.
Trying to gather any meaningful Resistance is an exercise in futility right now. It would not be gamebreaking to double most of the Resistance IO set bonuses, either by doubling the values (eg make Positrons Blast give +3.125% vs Fire and Cold in slot 3) or by doubling up on types of damage (Kinetic Crash slot 3 becomes +2.5% vs Smashing AND Lethal)
Its true that defence is susceptible to the streak breaker and defence debuffs, but it also caps at 90%+ mitigation for all ATs and ignores debuffs.
<QR>
If you think the softcap by itself is enough to not need anyone else, you need to fight harder stuff. Using the softcap as a scapegoat for the "def > res in IOs" argument is a bad idea.
For the record, I completely agree that there's a skewed balance between def and res in IO sets, but you're hurting your point if you use poor (and arguably wrong) examples to support it.
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On the other hand, ask a Electric brute (or any resistance set really) if he wants some extra S/L res buffs on him, and then watch him drool.
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That same ELA brute can obtain ~30% melee defense with the use of a few powers and set bonuses. So 30% melee defense on top of their resistances is purdy tough.
But I do agree, that def bonuses far out number resistance bonuses.
I think the lesson they learned is, "If a character is capped on res and def, they are impossibly tough compared to a "normal" character."
Capping DEF makes a character 10x tougher. Capping DEF and getting RES to 75% makes a character 40x tougher. In the case of capping DEF and RES on a tank or brute, they become 100x tougher than characters with 0 Def and 0 Res.
THAT is the case where the other characters can't keep up- or in the "good old days" of I4, you had characters 200 or 300 times tougher than the squishies.
I think the design decision with the IO system was, "either give Def, or give Res, but don't give both." And they didn't.
Incidental factoid: DEF-capped characters still have about a 6% chance of getting doubletapped and killed, when fighting very tough opponents. (Once you get hit once, you have a 5-10% chance that the next hit will land. For sufficiently tough enemies, two hits will kill you.) RES-based characters don't have Sudden Death Syndrome like that.
I can't read the Devs' minds, I have no inside information, but that's my theory about why they made IO's and Defense work the way they did.
10x is a lot tougher, but 40x or 200x was crazy. I was playing an INV scrapper in I4 while my wife was playing a blaster and it was ... there was considerable imbalance, protectionwise.
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What's the prob with capping res? I mean no you can't hit AT limits on res without a bit of fiddling, but I know you can make a cheapish IO build for INV tanks that softcap you for smashing/lethal and keeps your other resists kind of ok.
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What's the prob with capping res? I mean no you can't hit AT limits on res without a bit of fiddling, but I know you can make a cheapish IO build for INV tanks that softcap you for smashing/lethal and keeps your other resists kind of ok.
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But again, when you play Invul, you kinda have to cherry-pick your enemies. Sure you can achieve a very high defense with Invincibility running, CJ, Weave and lot of IO bonuses and you can add over that capped Smash/Lethal resistances with Tough/Temp Invul/Unyielding/RPD...
But! If you are fighting mostly Smash/Lethal enemies, you end not getting much use for high defense since 90% Resist + your health recovery is often enough to do the job.
And! If you are fighting enemies that are more into exotic damage like psionic/energy/fire/cold then your resistances are getting alot less useful at soaking damage so while great defense will definetely make you tougher to kill, a few bad hits, defense debuffs and what not will start melting an Invul very fast ( especially if damage is psionic or toxic ).
Yeah, Invul is overall great and looking good but there are still quite a few enemies that can cripple him very quick and that even with IO set bonuses to defense.
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Mr. Sword: I think you misunderstood my point.
The problem isn't "capped RES" or "capped DEF" - either of those makes a character very tough to kill. The problem is both capped RES and capped DEF, on the same character at the same time, without help.
Ten times tougher is near the top of "Balanced". Forty times tougher is ridiculous.
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I have yet to see a toon cap both to all damage types. maybe I am just missing something...
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I have yet to see a toon cap both to all damage types. maybe I am just missing something...
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That's sort of the point. The argument is the devs don't want people doing that.
That's not to say the devs couldn't improve on the +RES bonuses in some ways without making capping both viable, but the fear of people capping both is one of the most sensible positions explaining why the devs would choose only one mitigation type to make readily available.
There's certainly an argument to be made that they may not have chosen the "right" one, depending on one's perspective on balance, but there are some pretty obvious issues with letting people hit both. If DR bonuses were easy to come by alongside current defense bonuses, some ATs and builds would find it pretty straightforward to cap both.
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Its true that defence is susceptible to the streak breaker and defence debuffs, but it also caps at 90%+ mitigation for all ATs and ignores debuffs.
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I don't understand that last comment. Defense ignores debuffs? Take a run through the ITF and let me know how that goes for you. Stand in the middle of a bunch of angry Cimeroran Traitors and all their shiny swords and then tell me that defense ignores debuffs. I believe there are some power sets with very high def debuff resists like Ice tankers, but for the average character that gets large defense numbers through set bonuses and pool powers, it's easy to get debuffed to hell very quickly once one or two lucky shots get in.
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Its true that defence is susceptible to the streak breaker and defence debuffs, but it also caps at 90%+ mitigation for all ATs and ignores debuffs.
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I don't understand that last comment. Defense ignores debuffs? Take a run through the ITF and let me know how that goes for you. Stand in the middle of a bunch of angry Cimeroran Traitors and all their shiny swords and then tell me that defense ignores debuffs. I believe there are some power sets with very high def debuff resists like Ice tankers, but for the average character that gets large defense numbers through set bonuses and pool powers, it's easy to get debuffed to hell very quickly once one or two lucky shots get in.
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What he means is Defense in general avoids the secondary effects of powers as well as the damage they would deal on a miss. A Sapper or Carnie Mask is far more likely to hit and do very ugly things to a Resistance or Regeneration based character (even at the Resistance, Recharge, or Regeneration hardcap) than for it to land on a softcapped Defense-based character.
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was just getting ready to open up a similar thread when I happened to open up this one. not even sure why as the subject doesn't give any clue what it's about.
but subject wording aside, I could not agree more with the original poster. finally getting the funds to start improving several of my characters with IOs
SR scrapper - goes from good to almost godly with the abundance of easily available defense buffs from IOs. from having to work to get above 30 def to all positions, it's a snap to get at least 40 - 45 or more def.
blaster - goes from very squishy with little defense, mezz protection or resistance to many times more durable as I can get at least 30 % def with little effort.
shield tank - durability with soft-capped def even more noticable than my SR scrapper.
and then there's my fire tank -- whose resistances were apparently designed to help him survive like the defenses do for my defense based characters.
so if they can increase their defense by upwards of 50% and survivability more like 4X, then I should be able to do the same with my fire tank and IOs, right? I will just go out and get all those nice set bonuses that raise my resistance from 60 or 70 % to the cap, for tanks, of 90%.
let's see, that would be a set of the ..... hmm no, guess it would be over in ...... hmm guess not there either. in fact, with very few exceptions like toxic resists for the 6th piece of purple sets, there is almost nothing you can slot to provide passive bonuses to your resists.
some resist buff IOs really need to be added to help balance things out a bit. yes, I can make my fire tank tougher to take down by slotting for def but that's not his thing. he's big, he's slow, no he can't dodge 90% of what you throw at him. but he doesn't care because all you can do is tickle him as you beat on him.
I like having the options to play different ways and I think there are many other people out there with the same opinion. how can it be bad for the game to have more than 1 way to feel like your hero is actually, you know, heroic
Your Fire Tank can pick up some pretty good Defence though, just like anyone else, andf end up with a highly survivable Defence/Resistance/Healing multi-layered approach.
I'm looking into the same for my Dark Tanker and building up some Energy Defence to cover that hole in her defences. Its working quite well so far.
Aegis or Reactive Armour both offer good bonuses, Aegis providing 4.65% Cold Defence for 5 slots - very handy for Fire Tanks. Reactive Armour spreads it around a bit more with 1.25% vs almost everything for 5 slots.
In light of what Fulmens says above, about not wanting people to max out Defence and resistance, this decision by the devs now makes sense to me.
Your Blaster didn't get "many times more durable as I can get at least 30 % def with little effort. " Your Blaster got about 2.5 times more durable.
So what can I do to make a Firetank 2.5 times more durable? Hmm... let's see. I could give them 30% defense! Apparently that's "little effort."
(Note: the Aegis set mentioned by Dr. Mike also gives 4.65% AOE defense, and I believe you have places to put at least 4 of those. Seems to me that it would be even EASIER to get high Defense on a firetank.)
Or you could go with the high-Recharge option. I notice you didn't mention that Firetanks can heal something like half their hit points every 30 seconds. If you spend a lot of money on getting high Recharge, that could be half their hit points every 20 seconds... so you'd be another 50% tougher.
Really, I think that the IO system makes firetanks TOO tough. But, hey, I'm willing to hear arguments from the other side.
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@Boltcutter in game.
as I stated in my previous post, I know that I can add defense to my fire tank as easily as you can now add defense to just about any build. my point, and I believe the point of the OP, is that I think we should be given alternatives.
I would like the option to build a tank that doesn't rely on defense but resistance. one that doesn't care if it gets hit because it will shrug off 80 - 90 % of the damage.
if I have a def based character, I can easily build upon it's core mitigation tools. but if I have a resistance based character, I cannot. the only good way to increase his survivability is by adding defense, not more resistance.
not saying adding defense doesn't make him harder to defeat, but looking for other ways to get there
Sorry for starting this thread and not responding in awhile....
My orginal point was that we are inching ever so closer back to the old days where toons where very self sufficient, and the devs took the bat to everything to even things back out again. IO's are to blame here....I'm not saying we are there, but if not monitored, we will be.
My second point was there is a big problem with the amount of +res IOs compared to +def IOs. As anyone knows, anyone can pick up +def IOs and make thier toon "harder". But, for resistance based toons, many of them do not have any kind of debuff resistance in defense, so while on paper, they can achieve 30+% on defense, it will quickly evaporate under game coniditions. However, defence based toons have debuff resistance built into thier sets, so adding more defense really improves thier survivability. This point and the fact that there is such a small number of +res IOs out there make for a very uneven comparision. Defense toons are much more survivable than resistance toons. Once again though, IOs are to blame. Taking just SOs into consideration, I would say that the two sets are very much comparable. But with the amount of +def IO sets out there and the severe lack of +res....there is no contest in my opinion.
Solution?
1. (not recommended) Nerf the amount of +def IO set out there.....
2. (recommended) Increase the amout of +res sets out there....
It is as simple as that. IMO
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Kendo: I gave you two alternatives.
1) Build up your Defense.
2) Build up your Recharge.
... or are you trying to pretend your Firetank doesn't get a good chunk of its mitigation from Healing Flames?
txpoodoo: You aren't actually understanding MY point. Someone once said "Every complex problem has a simple, easily understood answer... that is wrong." Your simple, easily understood answer, is wrong. People would make characters that were both Defense monsters and Resistance monsters, at the same time.
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I am not asking for alternatives on how to make the fire tank stronger. I have acknowledged, multiple times, that I know I can add defense to him.
I was using a fire tank as a comparison to something like a SR scrapper. basically the same point that txpoodoo is making. that the game, in my opinion, is becoming too skewed towards one solution for everyone - defense. and that solution is not equally beneficial to all characters due to some of the factors that txpoodoo noted, like SR getting large amounts of protection from defense debuffs.
and I would disagree with the contention that adding + res IOs to the game would be too powerful. you only have a limited number of powers and slots, so you would have to choose between res or def; could go mostly def or mostly res or try for a middle ground.
for example, I can now put Touch of Death in a melee power and increase my melee defense by 3.75%. so give us a melee power IO that increases some of my resistances by a comparable amount. believe the usual ratio thrown around is 2:1, so 7.5%
if you make these either / or you shouldn't be able to make a character that is capped out in both resist and defense. if need be, maybe you reduce the amount of the defense and resistance buffs provided by IOs just a little. say 3 and 6% or even 2.5 and 5%.
with something like this, you would then have more options to tune your character the way you would like. go all out defense, go all out resists or go for more of a middle ground.
I find it funny that awhile back, the devs took the bat to resistance and defense secondaries and made it to where you needed help from other arch types to reach your caps. Because they said that buff type ATs were not feeling needed. So....lets fast foward.
Now we have IO's...now because of the massive amount of +def in IO sets, a toon can "easily" reach softcap defenses by themselves, but on the other hand resistance secondaries still need help to reach theirs. Now we have a situation that defense based secondaries are perferred over resistance because once again they don't need anyone else.
Somewhere I read that the devs don't balance the game taking into consideration of IO's. That they base things off of SOs. And only taking SOs into consideration, the defense sets and resistance sets are "balanced".
Well, I hate to break it to the devs, by ignoring a huge part of thier game, they have created an inbalance again. Not only an inbalance between resistance and defense sets, but also creating a ATs that don't need anyone else....
If thier intent with IOs is allow people to reach softcap type numbers, they really need to throw alot more +res IOs out there. If not, then unfort. they need to take a look at taking out alot of the +def.
Just my observations...
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