Going to have to side with kendo on this one. Defense across the board is far more favored than Resistance or Recharge, especially in regard to IOs and inspirations. I do not recall there being an inspiration for +Recharge, and a small +Defense inspiration has a much greater effectiveness than a small +Resistance unless you are already pushing toward the cap on a Resistance type, and then you are only getting that effectiveness against one type of damage.
Not only are +Defense bonuses higher in magnitude and more prevalent, but are usually much cheaper to come by. Not to mention differing enough to where you will rarely run into the rule of 5. It is surprisingly easy to knock into the +5% Recharge bonus because many of the Uncommon sets have it and anything other than that requires taking some powers that are purely used to hold a set. I am not saying building for +Defense or +Resistance may not require similar sacrifices, but nowhere near the order you have to do so to slot +Recharge bonuses (I ran into this problem when trying to find places that would hold +6.25% and +7.5% bonuses on my DM/Regen/Dark... fortunately I found them, but not in powers that will be all that useful). The amount of Recharge needed to improve ones survivability comparable to a decent amount of Defense means you have to pay out the yin-yang for LotGs and purple sets. Not everyone is going to try and manipulate the market to make up the difference.
I think everyone here gets what you are trying to say, Fulmens, in that the Devs probably do not want anyone to be capable of driving Resistance and Defense to an AT's effective cap using IOs, but that does not mean a player should not have the option of making their character sturdier with a path they choose because the Devs chose to play favorites when distributing bonuses among the sets.
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
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a player should not have the option of making their character sturdier with a path they choose because the Devs chose to play favorites when distributing bonuses among the sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except it has to.
The devs have three choices.
1) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with one method
2) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with both methods
3) No one gets to buff themselves with either method
We know the devs probably don't want to allow number 2, since that will let characters who can reach both caps be something like 2-5x tougher to kill than they are today.
Do we want to play tit-for-tat and say "if I can't use my preferred method, no one gets to play"?
The devs happened to choose the method that allows almost anyone to get pretty darn good average mitigation to some combination of 3 positions (and some people to reach 90% average mitigation). The alternative, DR, would always be damage typed, which would require us to choose from among, at best, 5 types even if paired (L/S, E/N, F/C, Psi, Toxic) and one would never have any resistance (Toxic). Moreover, most ATs would be at a 75% DR cap instead of the common 90% average mitigation "soft cap" Defense has.
Assuming the devs don't want to give us option 2, and that we don't want option 3, that leaves us with option 1. And given option 1, I think we got the better of the two things they could have given us.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
ummm...I dont use IO Set bonuses...I feel they set IO's are aimed towards pvp...that's my solution to the "inbalance"
If I am playing an /SR I personally dont need or want anymore defense past my limited 3 IO's for...If I am in PvP then I can see how I want to Set IO myself out so I can out perform other AT's... but in PvE... I dont care bout having 10% extra this or that...it doesnt effect me...
http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/n...stumes%202011/
[ QUOTE ]
The devs have three choices.
1) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with one method
2) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with both methods
3) No one gets to buff themselves with either method
We know the devs probably don't want to allow number 2, since that will let characters who can reach both caps be something like 2-5x tougher to kill than they are today.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nicely summarised.
To add to this, the reason defence gets favoured (I think) is that it can be countered. Add in some +To Hit or Def debuff and it vanishes rapidly.
I've run into this with Silver Mantis as an EB villain side - four luck pills, 4 damage, run in, dead!! Because the defence bonus I stacked up as part of my EB routine was blown through be her Aim.
Quartz resonantors from the Devouring Earth do the same. So do Earth Thorn Casters.
You can use set bonuses, purple pills etc to drop your incoming damage to 10% of what it was with defence, but an enemy with the right power can make you take 10 times as much damage again very easily.
These powers will at worse make an undefended player take only double damage though, so they levels the playing between the high defence and low defence characters.
Resistance as it is set up in the game has no such magic bullet, because Resistance resists Resistance debuffs. If an enemy packs a hefty resistance debuff it affects everyone equally and makes them take X times more damage. You can't design anenemy who does normal levels of smashing damage to an Invulnerable tank without them also doing 10 times base damage to a Blaster, which is crazily overpowered.
So these decisions all make sense to me now.
The one bad side effect to all this is that characters with Defence debuff resistance get favoured, they can build up defence bonuses without them getting trashed by def debuffs, as txpoodoo pointed out. At least they can still get their defence neutralised by To Hit buffs.
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ummm...I dont use IO Set bonuses...I feel they set IO's are aimed towards pvp...that's my solution to the "inbalance"
If I am playing an /SR I personally dont need or want anymore defense past my limited 3 IO's for...If I am in PvP then I can see how I want to Set IO myself out so I can out perform other AT's... but in PvE... I dont care bout having 10% extra this or that...it doesnt effect me...
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As it happens, building up some extra def on a SR scrapper will cut down your incoming damage by 3 or 4 times in PVE and do pretty much jack squat in PVP. Other players get To Hit buffs from Aim, Build Up, yellow pills and Tactics, most PvE enemies dont have these.
You're right though - you dont need IOs to play the PVE game and can choose to ignore the system.
DrMike said
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You can't design anenemy who does normal levels of smashing damage to an Invulnerable tank without them also doing 10 times base damage to a Blaster, which is crazily overpowered.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think at one point high level Longbow Nullifiers had unresistable -resist grenades. I think they've been changed.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
While the disparity between +def and +res bonuses is huge and you raise a very good point for why this is the case Fulmens, it seems a little restrictive.
It would be cool if you could get +def -or- +res from set bonuses, so defense based characters could get more defense and resist based characters could shore up their resists. I'm not sure how this could be elegantly implemented though. The problem is I suppose heavily IOd builds could also get a decent amount of both which as you've said is overpowered.
Support Guides for all Corruptor secondaries and Fortunatas
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
The Melee Teaming Guide for Melee Mans
I do not think anyone here is disagreeing with anything Fulmens or Uberguy have said here. I know I was not even if my last post was interpreted wrongly.
UG's summary is probably the closest we are going to get to the Dev's thought process on this, but does that mean the +Resistance and +Recharge bonuses have to absolutely pale in comparison to the +Defense bonuses? You could go through every set right now, double or triple the resistance bonuses, combine every "type" (Smashing/Lethal, Fire/Cold, Energy/Negative and Psionic/Toxic) and +Defense would still be the preferred (and probably better) method of making a character tougher. At least then those who would want to make a character hardier versus a specific type of damage at least have a viable option, rather than just looking and thinking, "did I make a mistake rolling a Resistance-based character if I wanted to improve what it was already good at with IOs?"
11 months of all-nighters, messy feeding sessions, bath fighting and realizing just how good my son's lungs work, and I am still convinced he is the crowning accomplishment in my life. What in the blue HFIL is wrong with me?
you can easily lose 20% or more def in a single shot from a spawn (depending on numbers and who did it)
Ios have no debuff resistance so while def is really easy to get, cascade failure is also just as easy
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Mr. Sword: I think you misunderstood my point.
The problem isn't "capped RES" or "capped DEF" - either of those makes a character very tough to kill. The problem is both capped RES and capped DEF, on the same character at the same time, without help.
Ten times tougher is near the top of "Balanced". Forty times tougher is ridiculous.
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Yes but:
A granite tank can relatively easily cap defence to all but psi (and have capped psi defence out of granite) combined with capped S/L resists and 80%+ to the rest except psi, but pays the price with the penalties.
If you want to add 30%+ to defence of a given type with IOs to a build, that uses most of your IO slots, so while you could take your fire tank up to nearly 40% def, that would leave you not very many slots to up your resists.
Unless you start with very decent amounts of both defence and resist, you're not going to be anywhere near capping both, particularly if most sets give def OR res rather than both.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
We only need ONE flavor of the month to break the game; how many Firetanks were there in issue 4?
My guess would be either Dark Armor tanks with Tough and Weave (starting at 60%+ Res to four types and 19% Defense, with a Steadfast), Kat/Dark Armor scrappers (48%+ res, 15% Defense and capped melee/lethal def), or Invuln tanks (near-cap S/L res, 32% "other" res, with Tough Hide, Weave and a Steadfast...around 35% Def to all but psi.)
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
The devs have three choices.
1) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with one method
2) Everyone gets to buff themselves heavily with both methods
3) No one gets to buff themselves with either method
We know the devs probably don't want to allow number 2, since that will let characters who can reach both caps be something like 2-5x tougher to kill than they are today.
[/ QUOTE ]
except why is everyone assuming that you would be able to buff yourself heavily with both?
for most characters, you have to make a very large investment in slots to get to, or close to, soft capped defense. that isn't going to leave enough slots to also get my resists up to the 70% + range.
on the other hand, along the same lines, if there were IO sets available that gave me more resist bonuses, I would expect to pay the price in slots used also. so I wouldn't have the slots left to heavily slot for defense bonuses.
as far as the argument that we have way more +def options because there are more -def powers used by mobs. well, players have several powers that have a -resist attribute, would think it very possible to add -resist to some of the mob's powers. they already have a good assortment of -def, -recharge, -to hit; could make things more interesting if a few had -resist.
[ QUOTE ]
except why is everyone assuming that you would be able to buff yourself heavily with both?
for most characters, you have to make a very large investment in slots to get to, or close to, soft capped defense. that isn't going to leave enough slots to also get my resists up to the 70% + range.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because all of us saying this are aware of builds where you could.
You have to view it in terms of the characters that can. The ones who happen to not be able to aren't the problem. You can't just look at how nice it would be for the builds who would end up with middle-of-the-road benefits when there are other builds who would converge on the extremes.
[ QUOTE ]
on the other hand, along the same lines, if there were IO sets available that gave me more resist bonuses, I would expect to pay the price in slots used also. so I wouldn't have the slots left to heavily slot for defense bonuses.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this is true for some builds and not for others.
[ QUOTE ]
as far as the argument that we have way more +def options because there are more -def powers used by mobs. well, players have several powers that have a -resist attribute, would think it very possible to add -resist to some of the mob's powers. they already have a good assortment of -def, -recharge, -to hit; could make things more interesting if a few had -resist.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mechanically, -resist is completely different from -defense. Defense penetrators subtract directly from your defense, after you resist them (if you can). DR "penetrators" are, effectively, scale factors on your damage because all DR resists all DR debuffs. The end result would not be the same.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Because all of us saying this are aware of builds where you could.
You have to view it in terms of the characters that can. The ones who happen to not be able to aren't the problem. You can't just look at how nice it would be for the builds who would end up with middle-of-the-road benefits when there are other builds who would converge on the extremes.
[/ QUOTE ]
and you all know this how? as it isn't currently implemented, I don't see how any of you know with certainty what builds, if any, would be able to take it to the extremes for both def and resist. I, for one, give the developers some credit and think they would take that into account when creating new sets and, possibly, modifying old ones.
[ QUOTE ]
on the other hand, along the same lines, if there were IO sets available that gave me more resist bonuses, I would expect to pay the price in slots used also. so I wouldn't have the slots left to heavily slot for defense bonuses.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, this is true for some builds and not for others.
[/ QUOTE ]
again, we don't know that for a fact at all. I could just as easily see a system where the expense, in slots needed, to max out one side of the equation, defense or resist, doesn't leave you enough room to come any where close to maxing out the other side.
[ QUOTE ]
as far as the argument that we have way more +def options because there are more -def powers used by mobs. well, players have several powers that have a -resist attribute, would think it very possible to add -resist to some of the mob's powers. they already have a good assortment of -def, -recharge, -to hit; could make things more interesting if a few had -resist.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mechanically, -resist is completely different from -defense. Defense penetrators subtract directly from your defense, after you resist them (if you can). DR "penetrators" are, effectively, scale factors on your damage because all DR resists all DR debuffs. The end result would not be the same.
[/ QUOTE ]
and mechanics cannot change? power customization? power proliferation? ED slotting? introduction of IOs themselves? mechanics change all the time.
again, I am not saying they should just willy nilly slap a bunch of +resist IO bonuses out there without taking into consideration the very good points and concerns that you and others have raised. but I still believe that it should be possible to create these in such a way as to give us more options when building a character.
[ QUOTE ]
I still believe that it should be possible to create these in such a way as to give us more options when building a character.
[/ QUOTE ]
Anything is possible for the guy who doesn't have to do it himself.
How long did we have City of Burn Tanks, kendo? It only takes one broken build.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
and you all know this how? as it isn't currently implemented, I don't see how any of you know with certainty what builds, if any, would be able to take it to the extremes for both def and resist. I, for one, give the developers some credit and think they would take that into account when creating new sets and, possibly, modifying old ones.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry you are this poor at basic logic and math.
People are asking for +res bonuses to exist on scales comparable in mitigation to those that already exist for +def. I understand what those values mean, and know what sorts of +res bonuses already exist in the powersets today. I can do basic arithmetic.
If the devs were to actually create the +res bonuses that people are asking for, and the devs do not nerf existing +res powersets (which I am very confident no one would want in exchange for +res sets), then I can see what would be possible.
I'm frankly not sure why you can't.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Mechanically, -resist is completely different from -defense. Defense penetrators subtract directly from your defense, after you resist them (if you can). DR "penetrators" are, effectively, scale factors on your damage because all DR resists all DR debuffs. The end result would not be the same.
[/ QUOTE ]
Technically, that's only true for autohit -def powers, which are significantly less common than the non-autohit variety. For regular -def powers to affect the target they have to hit first - which means existing defense will "resist" it in the sense of making the attack less likely to land in the first place.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
[ QUOTE ]
Technically, that's only true for autohit -def powers, which are significantly less common than the non-autohit variety. For regular -def powers to affect the target they have to hit first - which means existing defense will "resist" it in the sense of making the attack less likely to land in the first place.
[/ QUOTE ]
What what you say is correct, it does not make what I said untrue. When -defense lands, or when the "penetrator" is +toHit, its mathematical interaction is completely different from the -DR mechanic. There is, for example, no such thing as "cascade DR breakdown", while the phenomenon of cascade Defense breakdown is very well understood. While +defense serves to initially limit the impact of non-auto-hit defense-debuffs, after the 1st one hits, all others hit more easily, and so on.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Oddly, search didn't return any Arcanaville discussion of cascading defense failure.
For those just tuning in, that's when you have a lot of minions using a lot of common minion attacks with -DEF (fire axes, machine guns, stuff that shows up in masses if it shows up at all.) So you go from 5% to be hit to 12.5% which VERY RAPIDLY becomes 20%, becomes "no defense at all", becomes dead.
It's not the FIRST hit that kills you... ok, there was Impossible Kung Fu Mission in the AE, final AV, where the first hit killed me. But he was truly a martial arts master.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
Oddly, search didn't return any Arcanaville discussion of cascading defense failure.
For those just tuning in, that's when you have a lot of minions using a lot of common minion attacks with -DEF (fire axes, machine guns, stuff that shows up in masses if it shows up at all.) So you go from 5% to be hit to 12.5% which VERY RAPIDLY becomes 20%, becomes "no defense at all", becomes dead.
It's not the FIRST hit that kills you... ok, there was Impossible Kung Fu Mission in the AE, final AV, where the first hit killed me. But he was truly a martial arts master.
[/ QUOTE ]
*Ahem* Me thinks your search-fu is weak.
Guide to (Tohit and) Defense v1.10beta Found this link in the Guide to Guides thread. ^.^;
*snip*
[ QUOTE ]
Resistance to defense debuffs
As of I6, resistance to defense debuffs have been added to some hero and villain sets. Not all sets with defense have had resistance to defense debuffs added: specifically Super Reflexes, Stone, Ice, and Energy Aura have had it added.
There is some confusion surrounding why resistance to defense debuffs was added in the first place. A common theory is that it was added because resistance resists resistance debuffs, but defense does not resist defense debuffs, so there was a disparity. That's actually not true: resistance resists resistance debuffs, while defense avoids defense debuffs.
The asymmetry comes because resistance to resistance debuffs doesn't go down when resistance itself is debuffed: the ability to resist resistance debuffs is itself not debuffable. It never gets weaker. But the ability to avoid a defense debuff obviously goes down as defense itself is debuffed. Defense is vulnerable to what is referred to as "cascade failure" where a defense debuff will reduce defense, making more defense debuffs land, which lowers defense even more, which allows even more defense debuffs to land.
This cascade failure, which occurs for defense sets but not for resistance sets, is the actual reason for the addition of defense debuff resistance, and it was specifically added to sets that rely on defense for a significant part of their protection. Its not an intrinsic property of defense, but a specific resistance added to specific power sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
Yup, my search-fu was weak. I was searching on "Cascading".
The scariest thing about that chunk of text is, I understood it.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
*Is in the same boat as Fulmens, and puts a hand on shoulder* Scary, ain't it? o.o
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
*reads and understands old [censored] Arcanaville ramblings*
Can I has scariness cheezeburger too?
*Hands scariness cheezeburger to Brawl*
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
Kendo: You ARE asking for alternatives to make the firetank stronger. You're asking for +Res to be added to the game.
You're also saying that "Game balance is easy" when, if there's anything we have learned from the AE farming problem, 100 thousand players will find things that 15 devs miss.
I also like the way that, in the name of game balance, you generously offered to nerf all the DEF-based characters so you can get what you want.
One last point: there is no "middle ground", kendo. When you have a game system that rewards the last 5% of Defense as highly as the first 40%, or the last 10% of Res as highly as the first 80%, the middle ground is no man's land.
What you would see is someone capping either Def or Res, then building up the other as high as possible- -probably only against specific types of attacks.
Katana/Dark scrappers can do this, with appallingly good survivability, but they pay their entire END bar for it.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.