End game content, compared to other MMO's (WoW) ??


Acyl

 

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Uhhh...no...HOs, set enhancements, and purples are the epic gear of WoW. They are not vanity items. They are required if you want to do crazy epic stuff (not regular content). SOs are the basic green stuff of WoW (good for regular content). DOs are white ("okay"). And TOs are gray (trash).

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I have no clue what your comparisons to WoW mean exactly as I know nothing about that game. However, I did use the phrase "ingame necessity." There is no "necessity" to do, as you say, "crazy epic" things. Do some people enjoy soloing Pylons, and other things that the game was not initially designed for? Of course. Do they need "CoH loot" to do them? You bet they do... but they are not required by anyone but themselves to do it.

So, gathering things you don't "need" to do things you don't really "need" to do, to me, is a form of vanity. Why do them unless you plan to brag about how good you are at this game? And don't tell me it's for the challenge. Saying that implies that they are so good that doing the game in a more normal fashion is below their level of expertise which is in and of itself, bragging.
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Having a set bonus as long as your arm makes your stats better than the SO'd person who has the same amount of percentages in their powers as you. Your HP, your end, your regen, your recovery, your accuracy, your recharge, your resistances (damage and status), your positional/damagetype defenses, ... heck you can even have debt protection that the SO'd guy can't. (Not that debt protection is worth much. But still. A dude with SOs can't get that out of their enhancements.)

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Of course it does those things. But people can play the game withot them, in fact they can get to 50 without them, complete every game objective without them, and help on every raid without them too.
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All that being said, I think you totally misread what I wrote and need to read it again.

1. Enhancements are items. We have loot in City.
2. Most enhancements are not vanity items. Most enhancements change your character for the better, either increasing the power they are in, or increasing your characters global stats like regen, etc.
3. Vanity items do not change a character's stats, or if they do, it's extremely minimal. CoX doesn't have much of that. I can't think of any unless you're slotting old level 50 TOs or something.
4. The biggest and best enhancements are HOs and set enhancements, with purples being the biggest and best of the set enhancements.

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1. I don't disagree.
2. Vanity does not preclude improvements. Improvements can be the source of vanity, in fact.
3. I disagree, see 2.
4. Indeed they are... all of which are unnecessary.



 

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You are using "vanity" as a descriptor of items in a way different than the OP (and myself). You are meaning "vanity" as in "to show off" (stroke the ego). The OP (and myself) means "vanity" as in "has no use other than to look pretty".

A WoW equivalent are the holiday dresses/tuxedos/etc. They have no stats, no buffs, etc, but they look darn good. (And yes, I did read that you don't play WoW. I don't care (and I don't mean that in a hostile way, it's just the truth), and will continue to use it because it's the easiest to draw examples from.)

This is, by the way, the typical game usage of the term "vanity items". Not ego-stroking, but items that do not alter a character's performance (or do so only by a very small amount).

Please re-read all my previous posts with this in mind.


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You are using "vanity" as a descriptor of items in a way different than the OP (and myself). You are meaning "vanity" as in "to show off" (stroke the ego). The OP (and myself) means "vanity" as in "has no use other than to look pretty".

A WoW equivalent are the holiday dresses/tuxedos/etc. They have no stats, no buffs, etc, but they look darn good. (And yes, I did read that you don't play WoW. I don't care (and I don't mean that in a hostile way, it's just the truth), and will continue to use it because it's the easiest to draw examples from.)

This is, by the way, the typical game usage of the term "vanity items". Not ego-stroking, but items that do not alter a character's performance (or do so only by a very small amount).

Please re-read all my previous posts with this in mind.

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I had absolutely no idea that the phrase "vanity items" had any sort of game-related definition outside of defining the words "vanity" and "item" and gluing them together. I have never heard anyone use the term vanity to describe things in the way you are. I am not at all saying you are wrong, but just that it is new information for me (CoH/V is the only MMO I have ever played).

I still argue that it is all unnecessary, but definately not vanity by your definition of the term.



 

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ya that term comes from WoW Thiry_seven, such as vanity pets, or vanity cloths like aggelakis mentioned, the holiday items.

In wow, when you reach the lvl cap, you have to start with 5man groups, then 5man heroics, then a 10man raid, then a 25man heroic raid, then they release a new 10/25 man raid that you have to be geared from the prevois 10/25man raid in order to be worth anything in it.

CoH seems to lack that from what you guys are telling me. Imo that makes for a huge gap in stuff to do at end game, considering 70% of my time on wow now is working on the new raids, gearing myself out to beat the last boss in the raid (raids average from 4 to 14 or so bosses), then working on getting the best items from that raid before the next one is released (typically 2-5 months later)

The other 30% of my time is spent in battlegrounds or arenas playing farely well balanced pvp compared to CoH, but someone already stated PvP was an addon thats what it doesnt mesh well which makes sense.
WoW does go through phases of unbalanced classes but for the most part its decent.

I also spend a small amount of time doing dailies, fishing, farming for gold etc to buy potions/flasks that i need for raids.

At the core of it, CoH is a simple blow stuff up with your super cool powers game, not much indepth.
Still fun though, thats why i reactivated my account, but its just not a game that will ever hold my intrested as long as WoW has.


 

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Wow. You have just described a game that I would never want to play. I guess our perspectives are completely opposite one another. Heh.



 

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one thing I would like to see is some form of tf for lvl 50's that yeilds purps as rewards.

just a thought, nothing more...


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Another thing you can do at 45-50 are the wide variety of story driven AE missions. We have a group that does this, utilizing the AE bldg in Founders Falls.

Also, if you don't already have all of the badges, its a good time to go GM hunting. I have one level 50 who is only lacking the badge for taking down U'Kon Gr'ai 10 times.


 

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Just some alternate perspective from someone else who's played WoW....

If you *don't* want to join a frat house (Guild) for raiding at end-game, and aren't a big PvP fan (arenas, which according to many aren't well balanced at all), there's still some stuff to do at the level cap, but it's a small % of what they release. You can run a bunch of 5 man dungeons, you can try to max out your rep with different groups to earn some lesser rewards (Merit reward stuff vs. the HO-level things you can get raiding). Or, you can go the CoX route, and make more alts.

Me, I've got lots of alts on my WoW account. (I play a few months at each expansion, then drop the account til the next one, I'm currently on break again.)

That said..... it's a good game, and I enjoyed it. It has good and bad facets, just like any game. There's really no need to have any arguement between WoWers and CoXers.


 

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Do items ever come into play or is it all for show a vanity?

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I find this vanity question a bit odd (as it seems to be about enhancements and insps) as vanity usually refers to visible things. When you look at a character, you can't "see" their enhancements or insps.

Crafted costume parts are definitely "visual" items and they are definitely about vanity. Crafted costume parts do not effect powers, though some costume parts have effects based on powers and/or actions.

Being able to wear a full cape because you have completed a mission at level 20 is definitely about vanity. The cape does not effect any of your powers.

The whole costume creator is about vanity. No costume parts effect your powers.


 

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While the game is more about the journey than the destination, there's pretty cool stuff to do at 50, too.

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This pretty much sums it up.

If your goal is just to be Uber and Uber with Uber-iness, then I don't think CoX is for game for you.

If you want to be super and fight crime (*sigh* or a villain and cause trouble), then come join the fun.


 

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3. Forbin, gotta disagree with you on that one. Enhancements are our items, and most of them are definitely more than "for show and vanity". HOs, set enhancements, purples especially...definitely not vanity loot.

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I understand why people might share that point of view, but I don't consider enhancements items because unless we use a respec they are effectively permanent attachments, and they don't affect our characters appearance in any way.


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They don't have to affect character appearance to be "items". Aside from the appearance part, they serve the same role gear does in other games. Sorry, but you're just plain wrong here. And it is not a matter of opinion.

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Okay, I actually agree with DT here.


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Of course, Diablo 2 had the capacity to create private games due to both the game naming and passwords, so if you were killed by someone, it was usually your own fault.

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Sorry, but I completely disagree with this logic. It's like saying that the victim of a mugging is the only one to blame because he walked down a dark alley. The attacker is to blame as well.

Frankly, the attitude that people should have to hide away in private games to avoid PK scumbags was what made Diablo2 on Battle.net so miserable....

I'm hoping Blizzard is smart enough to put a "no PvP" flag that game creators can set in Diablo 3.

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Way to not read the rest of it, or have no capacity to understand what I was talking about.

EDIT TO ADD: I was talking about Hardcore mode, a mode in which you either took on solo, or only with trusted friends who understood how to build a character that could survive. If you wanted to bring along some random shmuck into your private HC game, and he goes hostile (and you manage to miss the message of his hostility, manage to not open a TP, or manage to not just quit the game right there), it's your fault.

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No, I understood it. You're taking a "blame the victim of the griefer" attitude, and I completely disagree with that logic. What mode it's in is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to hide away in PW locked games in multiplayer mode just to avoid PK dirtbags.




Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

 

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I had absolutely no idea that the phrase "vanity items" had any sort of game-related definition outside of defining the words "vanity" and "item" and gluing them together. I have never heard anyone use the term vanity to describe things in the way you are. I am not at all saying you are wrong, but just that it is new information for me (CoH/V is the only MMO I have ever played).

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The term is used that way even on CoH to describe the first vet reward pets...




Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

 

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In wow, when you reach the lvl cap, you have to start with 5man groups, then 5man heroics, then a 10man raid, then a 25man heroic raid, then they release a new 10/25 man raid that you have to be geared from the prevois 10/25man raid in order to be worth anything in it.

CoH seems to lack that from what you guys are telling me. Imo that makes for a huge gap in stuff to do at end game, considering 70% of my time on wow now is working on the new raids, gearing myself out to beat the last boss in the raid (raids average from 4 to 14 or so bosses), then working on getting the best items from that raid before the next one is released (typically 2-5 months later)

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Yeah, you understand correctly. We do have rare enhancements and stuff in CoH, and a character with an expensive build will usually outclass someone with a normal build. The difference can be huge. And the devs do add new enhancements to the game all the time.

BUT - that kind of expensive build isn't required to play the game. You can do all the content in CoH with a totally normal build. If you join teams with a regular build, nobody will complain that you suck. There isn't really any pressure to get the latest and best 'gear' in CoH. You can get by with your basic stuff.

Now... as for endgame content in CoH... there are a lot of story arcs in the 45-50 range. However the closest thing to WoW raids are Task/Strike Forces, for the most part. There are a bunch of cool endgame TF/SFs that can be very difficult and need good teams to complete. But I don't think there are as many as WoW.

We have two big raids in CoH, ones that need around 30-50 people - the Mothership Raid in the RWZ and the Hamidon Raid. But there's no real pressure to do this, you don't HAVE to do 'em to succeed in the game. Many players haven't, since the raids can easily lag the hell out of an lower-end computer.

Ultimately, World of Warcraft is a game which requires a great deal of time investment from the player. You need to constantly upgrade your gear, if you want to see everything the game offers. CoH isn't like that.

I play CoH because it's a lot friendlier to casual players. This should be pretty obvious - Issue 15 and 16 are introducing a ton of new visual customisation options. That's pure vanity stuff, no game effects at all. But this game's about looking cool.

WoW is a different animal. I played it a long time ago, and I thought it was a great game - just not my sort of game.


@Acyl

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Now we do have recipes that change character appearance and give characters powers but those items can't be swapped between characters once attached.

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Oh you mean like getting a pair of PURPLE daggers on your Rogue then equiping them, then bein gable to pass them off to another player or toon? yeah... that doesnt happen in WoW... however in CoH you can do a respec, remove enhancements and then pass those along to other players or toons you have.

WoW and CoH players for the most part seem to be a different breed, at least IMO. I have played WoW but the single most thing i hated about that game were the players. The lack of a real community. Since I joined this game in Dec '05/Jan '06.... I have made some great friends. I have had some great mentors that helped learn this game.

I have had been pwnd over and over in pvp until this villain stopped and talked to me about my build and what i could do to perform better.

Even the pvp 'JERKS' have become casual friends in game and always say "hi, how you doing Green?", after ganking me, heart warming, i know right...

End game content on this game can be in the eye of the beholder. I love running stuff on my 50, low level TFs, whatever... There is more and more being added. The game has some really cool content.

I just hope AE gets fixed so its easier to find teams to run that content again.

Issue 15 reveals a dude that has been long waited for in game... its a small issue, i was disappointed in the costume options... But i really think the devs will hear the complaint about all the recent cool costume items being a 'pay for add on' i have bought 'em but i agree with some that say its time to give us something cool in one of the free issues...

All in all my costumer approval status is high, i am happy with the game, i like whats coming. i16 and Going Rogue have me more excited than I have been since RV was released in the game...

WoW, i felt like a player of a game.
CoH, i feel like a member of a family.


No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."

 

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ya that term comes from WoW Thiry_seven, such as vanity pets, or vanity cloths like aggelakis mentioned, the holiday items.

In wow, when you reach the lvl cap, you have to start with 5man groups, then 5man heroics, then a 10man raid, then a 25man heroic raid, then they release a new 10/25 man raid that you have to be geared from the prevois 10/25man raid in order to be worth anything in it.

CoH seems to lack that from what you guys are telling me. Imo that makes for a huge gap in stuff to do at end game, considering 70% of my time on wow now is working on the new raids, gearing myself out to beat the last boss in the raid (raids average from 4 to 14 or so bosses), then working on getting the best items from that raid before the next one is released (typically 2-5 months later)

The other 30% of my time is spent in battlegrounds or arenas playing farely well balanced pvp compared to CoH, but someone already stated PvP was an addon thats what it doesnt mesh well which makes sense.
WoW does go through phases of unbalanced classes but for the most part its decent.

I also spend a small amount of time doing dailies, fishing, farming for gold etc to buy potions/flasks that i need for raids.

At the core of it, CoH is a simple blow stuff up with your super cool powers game, not much indepth.
Still fun though, thats why i reactivated my account, but its just not a game that will ever hold my intrested as long as WoW has.

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COH is definitely the "lite" version of MMORPs. The vast majority of missions just fall into a very few categories, and almost always involve beating mobs. Being the "lite" version isn't bad or good, it's just different. It allows it to be more casual, which makes it easy for players to log on and engage in content quickly.

If you break down what you describe and what CoX is like, they're not that dissimilar. WoW releases new raids a couple times a year. You work your way through that raid and then wait for the next one to be released. CoX releases new content and task forces a couple times a year also. The difference is that you don't need to get gear from the current one to tweak yourself out to be ready for the next one.

The best way to look at end-game content in CoX is that the entire game is end-game content. Everything that is available on the journey to 50 is still available after you get there. The flashback system (Oroborous) lets you go back and play anything that you liked or may have missed. It's very effective, lowering you to the proper level so that the content can still be challenging. Last night I logged on my 50 dark defender and saw they were looking forming the 1st respec task force, so I joined up and was kept busy for an hour. Afterwards I saw an Imperius Task Force forming, so I joined that one. Then I saw someone was working through the Midnighter arc and was level 33 and looking for teammates. I sent him a tell, he exemped me down to level 33, and we ran through that.

There's few fundamental differences between the various levels, if any at all. Playing a level 30 mission isn't much different than playing a level 50 mission. I believe that's true for all the games out there. You may have less powers, but since the content is geared for those levels, difficulty will be similar, so there's no reason to limit yourself to just the 50 content.


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I think one of the biggest differences between this game's end-game "goals" and that of other games out there would be the fact that you don't VISUALLY see the advancement of your character past hitting 50.

In games like WoW (using it for an example only), you can SEE who's taken the time to trick out a particular character. Upgraded armor is nice and flashy, and people recognize how much time you've invested based purely on your "look".

Now, in CoH, it's slightly different. The character creator is absolutely amazing, and allows a wide range of options. Yes, there are ways for a higher-level character to distinguish themselves, such as capes, auras, titles/badges, and unlockable weapons and armors. But your character could also look the same from level 1 all the way through to 50 and beyond.

Under the hood, however, is a different story. A character using standard enhancements may be somewhat effective, but that same character with a tricked-out IO setup could very well be a scary sight to behold. Only at THAT point will observant players say to themselves, "Holy crow, look at that kid!" and view your info. THEN, when they see the list of set bonuses a mile long, will they fully recognize how much time you've spent on your character.

So, to answer your question, items (in this case Enhancements) are not for vanity at all, as a player cannot look at, say, your helm or pauldrons and see "Oh, Tier 4, nice." However, I feel they do MORE for for vanity, as they enable you to push your character that much further. A Scrapper with standard enhancements might do okay in a team environment, but a tricked-out Scrapper with purples out the wazoo will be off destroying entire spawns by himself while the team just stands in awe. That's the true beauty of the "end-game" enhancements.


In terms of your other questions:

By "raiding" I assume you mean something like Molten Core (or whatever the new stuff in WoW is, I strayed off that path a long time ago), where a bunch of characters take down an instanced dungeon. In that sense, there are a couple "raiding"-type situations in CoH. On the Virtue server, we go after Hamidon once or twice a week, and we also go on Rikti raids a couple times a week as well. Players go after Hamidon for enhancements, and Rikti for Vanguard Merits to upgrade the look of their character. In both instances, they're very fun, and a great way to meet new people.

In addition, random events such as zombie uprisings and Rikti invasions pull players together in the zones themselves to fight for safety. Giant Monsters also spawn in some locations, which players will often band together to take down for badges. Task Forces bring players together as well, and are most like the "instances" that you're probably used to in WoW.


 

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Are there actual good supergroups than use VEntrilo and do things together?

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Yes,there is.


 

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one thing I would like to see is some form of tf for lvl 50's that yeilds purps as rewards.

just a thought, nothing more...

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The devs has stated that will NEVER happen. Purple will never be available as earnable rewards like that.


 

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Of course, Diablo 2 had the capacity to create private games due to both the game naming and passwords, so if you were killed by someone, it was usually your own fault.

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Sorry, but I completely disagree with this logic. It's like saying that the victim of a mugging is the only one to blame because he walked down a dark alley. The attacker is to blame as well.

Frankly, the attitude that people should have to hide away in private games to avoid PK scumbags was what made Diablo2 on Battle.net so miserable....

I'm hoping Blizzard is smart enough to put a "no PvP" flag that game creators can set in Diablo 3.

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Way to not read the rest of it, or have no capacity to understand what I was talking about.

EDIT TO ADD: I was talking about Hardcore mode, a mode in which you either took on solo, or only with trusted friends who understood how to build a character that could survive. If you wanted to bring along some random shmuck into your private HC game, and he goes hostile (and you manage to miss the message of his hostility, manage to not open a TP, or manage to not just quit the game right there), it's your fault.

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No, I understood it. You're taking a "blame the victim of the griefer" attitude, and I completely disagree with that logic. What mode it's in is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to hide away in PW locked games in multiplayer mode just to avoid PK dirtbags.

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No, apparently you don't understand and I'm not going to bother explaining it to you because you're unlikely ever to understand.

Good day.


Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

 

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Of course, Diablo 2 had the capacity to create private games due to both the game naming and passwords, so if you were killed by someone, it was usually your own fault.

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Sorry, but I completely disagree with this logic. It's like saying that the victim of a mugging is the only one to blame because he walked down a dark alley. The attacker is to blame as well.

Frankly, the attitude that people should have to hide away in private games to avoid PK scumbags was what made Diablo2 on Battle.net so miserable....

I'm hoping Blizzard is smart enough to put a "no PvP" flag that game creators can set in Diablo 3.

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Way to not read the rest of it, or have no capacity to understand what I was talking about.

EDIT TO ADD: I was talking about Hardcore mode, a mode in which you either took on solo, or only with trusted friends who understood how to build a character that could survive. If you wanted to bring along some random shmuck into your private HC game, and he goes hostile (and you manage to miss the message of his hostility, manage to not open a TP, or manage to not just quit the game right there), it's your fault.

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No, I understood it. You're taking a "blame the victim of the griefer" attitude, and I completely disagree with that logic. What mode it's in is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to hide away in PW locked games in multiplayer mode just to avoid PK dirtbags.

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No, apparently you don't understand and I'm not going to bother explaining it to you because you're unlikely ever to understand.

Good day.

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But it's exactly what you said. If a person plays in an unlocked game and gets griefed, it's their own fault. No blame being placed on the griefer there. If that's not what you mean, you need to learn to express yourself better, because that's what you're saying.




Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

 

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Of course, Diablo 2 had the capacity to create private games due to both the game naming and passwords, so if you were killed by someone, it was usually your own fault.

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Sorry, but I completely disagree with this logic. It's like saying that the victim of a mugging is the only one to blame because he walked down a dark alley. The attacker is to blame as well.

Frankly, the attitude that people should have to hide away in private games to avoid PK scumbags was what made Diablo2 on Battle.net so miserable....

I'm hoping Blizzard is smart enough to put a "no PvP" flag that game creators can set in Diablo 3.

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Way to not read the rest of it, or have no capacity to understand what I was talking about.

EDIT TO ADD: I was talking about Hardcore mode, a mode in which you either took on solo, or only with trusted friends who understood how to build a character that could survive. If you wanted to bring along some random shmuck into your private HC game, and he goes hostile (and you manage to miss the message of his hostility, manage to not open a TP, or manage to not just quit the game right there), it's your fault.

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No, I understood it. You're taking a "blame the victim of the griefer" attitude, and I completely disagree with that logic. What mode it's in is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to hide away in PW locked games in multiplayer mode just to avoid PK dirtbags.

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No, apparently you don't understand and I'm not going to bother explaining it to you because you're unlikely ever to understand.

Good day.

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But it's exactly what you said. If a person plays in an unlocked game and gets griefed, it's their own fault. No blame being placed on the griefer there. If that's not what you mean, you need to learn to express yourself better, because that's what you're saying.

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I specifically said Private Game. Actually, I said "if you want to bring some random shmuck into your private HC game...", but you go ahead and read what you want to see.

Even in a public game (and I have no idea why you play in a public HC game to begin with, as that's just asking for trouble), all the same methods to escape a PK death apply. Your mindless hatred over the PKers is not justified. Note: I am not a PKer.


Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage

 

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I specifically said Private Game. Actually, I said "if you want to bring some random shmuck into your private HC game...", but you go ahead and read what you want to see.

Even in a public game (and I have no idea why you play in a public HC game to begin with, as that's just asking for trouble), all the same methods to escape a PK death apply. Your mindless hatred over the PKers is not justified. Note: I am not a PKer.

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Yes, you said private game...as the method to avoid PKers.

And, yes, there are methods to avoid PKers, but they aren't always effective, PLUS there are tons of hacks to circumvent them.

Forcing PvP onto another player without their consent is griefing. Period. End of story. They get off on ruining other people's fun. That's the only reason to want to PvP without requiring the target's consent. My hatred is very justified. People whose idea of fun is to ruin the fun of others are flat-out pathetic and deserve nothing but contempt.




Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint

 

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You're wrong,DK. I am sorry. There are'nt tons of hacks on closed D2. Promise. Open is anothe story and a whole different method of play. But closed D2 is pretty heavily policed even though the game is not a pay to play.
I think you all should agree to disagree because DK is talking about many games and Laxx just D2.

To everyone else posting a " vanity " item is common terminology for a power or item thats simply just that. An item a character has for " vanity". Doesn't do much but pretty cool to have, whether a costume piece or silly power used to show off.

Yes, Coh has those. You pay for them . IE:Costume packs and fun,useless powers. there are also some temp powers that drop as recipes that fall in the vanity category.IE:Costume recipes and temp powers.
Yes, Coh has loot. Coh's loot are Io's and the set bonuses they provide, purple sets, pvp sets and ho's. All the loot listed in this paragraph adds to the performance of your character .

Editing to answer the rest.

Yup, there are endgame raids and content. Yup, many sg/vg's use ventrilo regularly.I don't really know how to answer the pvp question.There used to be alot of fun pvp and a thriving test league. Both of those seem to have gone by the wayside since the advent of issue13. Many unwelcome changes were made in order to make pvp more appealing for the casual player. All that happenned was the people that enjoyed pvp before left the game or quit pvp'ing and the casual can't grasp why their character doesnt work the same in pvp as pve. In a nutshell the changes hasn't enticed enough new players to replace the oldschool that left or stopped. Some one in the thread stated that pvp was an addon and wasnt expected to succeed in this game. Maybe they are right. I have no answer for the pvp question. It would take about a dissertation to explain. Sorry.