End game content, compared to other MMO's (WoW) ??
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-06-27 22:45 in Player Questions
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What I was advocating was the notion of adding SOME new content that moves out of the "you can do everything with SOs" model. If they did this and you didn't care for it, you'd simply skip it.
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If the game has 6 things to do, all of which can be done with SOs, and the devs add 4 more things to do, 2 of which can be done with SOs and 2 of which cannot, any given player can say
A) "Hey, I could do 6 things before. Now I can do 8. That's a 33% increase. Cool!", or
B) "Hey, I used to be able to access 100% of CoX's content. Now I can only access 80%. Not cool!"
They're both right. One of them unsubscribes.
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this is a theme im seeing by alot of you CoH players. Do you guys not realize that its extremely fun to kill huge powerful bosses? Instead of your heals healing for 2000 at 80, they heal for 8000 becaues you put in the time, and are now capable of destroying the meanest and baddest bosses blizz can throw at you. Not only do i get a sense of "team" when i raid with my guild, but i also get a a lot of self accomplishment when destroying a boss we have worked on for so long. And the fact is, Blizz makes so much content, an average to hardcore raider will see 30 to 50 new boss fights a year, that dominates what there is to offer in CoH. Dont get me wrong though, i love flying around, using my super powers, and following stories in CoH, i just wish there was some raiding involved, i like what rogue sounds like.
If you look at raiding like raid/gear/raid/gear then you fail to see the point. You can look at anything that way if you desire. farm/alt/farm/alt/farm etc
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I think I can sum up a lot of points of view on this one.
COH is different to WOW. It is a rather different game, and by being different it attracts people who don't like some of WOW's features.
A big problem with some of the new MMO's coming out is they try to be too much like WOW. Why go try a new game that is a reskinned WOW when you can play WOW?
It is COH's differences to WOW that make it a viable game and have contributed to it sticking around so long.
Personally, I did not enjoy WOW. I did not enjoy the need to have a guild to enjoy the good content. I did not enjoy the idea of having to start from scratch every time the level cap went up. I didn't like doing a 3 hour mission and getting nothing for it.
Most of all, I hated how retarded my toons looked with their big dumb glowy and clashing outfits. Style gets you killed in WOW.
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Personally, I did not enjoy WOW. I did not enjoy the need to have a guild to enjoy the good content. I did not enjoy the idea of having to start from scratch every time the level cap went up. I didn't like doing a 3 hour mission and getting nothing for it.
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I dont know about you, but solo play is 100x more boring in mmo's. Half the reason they are so succesful is the fact its a massively multiplayer game. Playing with friends and your guild/supergroup is half the fun. again imo, maybe if your anti social and a lone wolf you'll enjoy playing with yourself...
everytime the levelcap went up? lol oh my every year or so, new content for me to adventure and quest, i dont see the logic in not enjoying to lvl your main character again every year for a couple weeks.
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Most of all, I hated how retarded my toons looked with their big dumb glowy and clashing outfits. Style gets you killed in WOW.
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I wish WoW had the graphics of Lineage 2, that game is beautiful. But its grown on me and the game mechanics/balance of gameplay makes up for it.
And if you think there isnt a balance in wow, consider how overpowered you can make a CoH group with the right tank/controller, you can basically make the group invincible.
I like soloing a lot thanks, I don't do it all the time but i like the option to. Some days I just want to blob out and kill people without having to worry about guild commitments. That's how I have fun. You can't really do that in WOW without missing most of the good content.
As for the level cap. I would probably quit this game if the level cap went up. I have sunk a lot of time into fully equipping my main with purple IO's. If those became redundant over night I would be furious.
More levels =/= more content.
More content = more content.
Who said anything about balance? I was talking about fashion and how stupid toons in WOW look with mismatched items. And don't tell me items don't matter, several times i witnessed people being excluding from raids because they "didn't have the right gear". It's pretty rare for a toon to be excluded from a team here because they don't have a full kit of purple IO's. I've never seen it in person. (Although i have seen a petless mastermind booted from a team)
I think good sir, that if you want to play WOW, you should go play it. This game is not WOW, nor shall it ever be. If that's the game play experience your after, then that's the game you should be playing.
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And if you think there isnt a balance in wow, consider how overpowered you can make a CoH group with the right tank/controller, you can basically make the group invincible.
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Wait, what? Controller i can see, since they bring debuffs and buffs, but tank...?
Oh, right, invincible group not unstoppable juggernaut of destruction group.
For an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction you mostly want a solid core of AT's like Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, VEATs and Masterminds; then add other AT's to taste.
Invincible is a bit simpler. Tanker, Controller or Defender and whatever else you want.
With practiced players almost any team mix can be nigh-invincible, but the above mix is best for less coordinated teams.
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Personally, I did not enjoy WOW. I did not enjoy the need to have a guild to enjoy the good content. I did not enjoy the idea of having to start from scratch every time the level cap went up. I didn't like doing a 3 hour mission and getting nothing for it.
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I dont know about you, but solo play is 100x more boring in mmo's. Half the reason they are so succesful is the fact its a massively multiplayer game. Playing with friends and your guild/supergroup is half the fun. again imo, maybe if your anti social and a lone wolf you'll enjoy playing with yourself...
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For many people "playing with other people" doesn't require actually teaming with them. There is far more player interaction than that in MMOs. I enjoy soloing most of the time because I've had so many experiences with bad teams that it's just not worthwhile for me to risk PUGing very often.
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I think one of the biggest differences between this game's end-game "goals" and that of other games out there would be the fact that you don't VISUALLY see the advancement of your character past hitting 50.
In games like WoW (using it for an example only), you can SEE who's taken the time to trick out a particular character. Upgraded armor is nice and flashy, and people recognize how much time you've invested based purely on your "look".
Now, in CoH, it's slightly different. The character creator is absolutely amazing, and allows a wide range of options. Yes, there are ways for a higher-level character to distinguish themselves, such as capes, auras, titles/badges, and unlockable weapons and armors. But your character could also look the same from level 1 all the way through to 50 and beyond.
Under the hood, however, is a different story. A character using standard enhancements may be somewhat effective, but that same character with a tricked-out IO setup could very well be a scary sight to behold. Only at THAT point will observant players say to themselves, "Holy crow, look at that kid!" and view your info. THEN, when they see the list of set bonuses a mile long, will they fully recognize how much time you've spent on your character.
So, to answer your question, items (in this case Enhancements) are not for vanity at all, as a player cannot look at, say, your helm or pauldrons and see "Oh, Tier 4, nice." However, I feel they do MORE for for vanity, as they enable you to push your character that much further. A Scrapper with standard enhancements might do okay in a team environment, but a tricked-out Scrapper with purples out the wazoo will be off destroying entire spawns by himself while the team just stands in awe. That's the true beauty of the "end-game" enhancements.
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Of course in City of [x] if you're a member of the same faction you can view a list of the character's set bonuses, which can give you an idea of how much has been invested in "equipping" the character. On some characters 3/4 or more of the info window is a solid block of set bonuses.
...If i ever play WoW i hope i can use "the Colorblind" in my character's name in anticipation of using high end gear. 
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I think one of the biggest differences between this game's end-game "goals" and that of other games out there would be the fact that you don't VISUALLY see the advancement of your character past hitting 50.
In games like WoW (using it for an example only), you can SEE who's taken the time to trick out a particular character. Upgraded armor is nice and flashy, and people recognize how much time you've invested based purely on your "look".
Now, in CoH, it's slightly different. The character creator is absolutely amazing, and allows a wide range of options. Yes, there are ways for a higher-level character to distinguish themselves, such as capes, auras, titles/badges, and unlockable weapons and armors. But your character could also look the same from level 1 all the way through to 50 and beyond.
Under the hood, however, is a different story. A character using standard enhancements may be somewhat effective, but that same character with a tricked-out IO setup could very well be a scary sight to behold. Only at THAT point will observant players say to themselves, "Holy crow, look at that kid!" and view your info. THEN, when they see the list of set bonuses a mile long, will they fully recognize how much time you've spent on your character.
So, to answer your question, items (in this case Enhancements) are not for vanity at all, as a player cannot look at, say, your helm or pauldrons and see "Oh, Tier 4, nice." However, I feel they do MORE for for vanity, as they enable you to push your character that much further. A Scrapper with standard enhancements might do okay in a team environment, but a tricked-out Scrapper with purples out the wazoo will be off destroying entire spawns by himself while the team just stands in awe. That's the true beauty of the "end-game" enhancements.
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Of course in City of [x] if you're a member of the same faction you can view a list of the character's set bonuses, which can give you an idea of how much has been invested in "equipping" the character. On some characters 3/4 or more of the info window is a solid block of set bonuses.
...If i ever play WoW i hope i can use "the Colorblind" in my character's name in anticipation of using high end gear.
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To be fair, Blizzard has done more than a few things to limit the amount of "clown clothes" seen at higher levels regarding visible gear selections. Nearly every armor item in Lich King has the same general pattern on it and darker colorization so that even a red and yellow put next to each other isn't immediately obvious. Of course, this applies to pieces of the same armor type (leather, plate, etc) and it starts to fall a tad short if you mix and match (it's not uncommon for Shamans and Hunters to mix leather in with their mail pieces, or in the Shaman's case, sometimes even cloth). Shoulder armors can also vary wildly but none of them really "go with" the general design of any piece. But even with this change, many of the players in WoW are complaining about how they have "no visible indicator of their power" or something... you can't please everyone. Though I personally feel these are the people who care more about standing in town for hours decked out in Tier 8.5 than actually using it.
Then you have the complete PvP/Tier sets that are designed as a whole so that having the entire set looks cohesive. The only time you ever look like an amalgamation of parts is when you're leveling. More frequently (and it's my complaint as well) are the complaints that once you get high enough, you look exactly like everyone else of your class. The individual is lost in favor of the group. Unfortunately, in a gear-based game, this is nearly unavoidable unless you design ahead of time the ability to alter your items' appearances in small, but obvious, ways. WoW was never designed to do that.
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If you look at raiding like raid/gear/raid/gear then you fail to see the point. You can look at anything that way if you desire. farm/alt/farm/alt/farm etc
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Thanks, InfamousNrez. You'll probably get your share of dismissive replies because there seem to be a fair number of forumites here that don't like to admit that WoW might actually be fun to play, but as CoH is the only MMO I play I appreciate hearing what people like about the WoW endgame model.
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I played WoW for 4 years, Everquest for 3 before that. Its only fun on the surface, once you realize you can't get any further without doing raids/pvp its pretty pointless to continue playing. Warhammer Online adopted an even more rigorous pvp philosophy. You can't get any of the high end sets through anything other than pvp. These games all have a set path to glory and anyone who doesn't wish to follow that path is just doomed.
I really hope that COH doesn't adopt this content philosophy.
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this is a theme im seeing by alot of you CoH players. Do you guys not realize that its extremely fun to kill huge powerful bosses?
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Yes it IS fun to kill huge powerful bosses.
Difference being, it doesn't require 40 people to kill the majority of the GMs in CoH. My wife and I can kill most of them with just the two of us. I have a character that, when he is done and slotted up, will be capable of doing it alone.
That's the difference for me between the games right there in a nutshell.
In WoW you're just another grunt in an army. The big challenges require large groups to complete. If your RL schedule doesn't mesh with a raid that's happening you have to wait until someone wants to organize another one.
In CoH you are an individual superhero. You don't need an entire army backing you up to achieve something. Being able to tackle tough challenges by myself makes me feel like I'm a real hero. It is also a lot easier to put together a Task Force on the spur of the moment than it is to organize a raid. If your RL schedule doesn't mesh with an event, just start your own when you can log on.
Playstyle differences are a factor too. In WoW, any boss fight pretty much requires the holy trinity of tank/healer/DPS. Many things cannot be beaten at all if you are missing one of the three.
In CoH you can meet 95% of the challenges in the game with any combination of characters and succeed.
In WoW you are expected to pretty much focus your attention on one character. You pick a job, you stick with it. Once you're a tank, you're a tank.
In CoH you are encouraged to create many characters. I have enough characters at high levels that I can bring just about anything that will help a team do something easier.
I just don't really like the time-sink factor of WoW. I can log on to CoH for 20 minutes, run a mission, and log out. From what I've heard about WoW, logging on for 20 minutes s basically a waste of time because you won't accomplish anything.
You're approaching this the wrong way. You're saying that if CoH were more like WoW it would be more fun.
What you're not taking into account that the fact that CoH is NOT like WoW is the reason most of the players here find it to be fun.
MMOs are not all the same, nor should they be. If CoH were like WoW I would not play it. In a similar vein, if WoW were like CoH, a lot of the players there would not play it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Indeed, I never really saw the appeal of Hamidon raids. They seem difficult, boring and like herding cats.
Mothership raids on the other hand, have you as a part of a rampaging horde of heroes all kicking epic amounts of alien tail in their own style. It's like being in a comic book or cartoon where there's a mass battle with dozens of individual characters getting a moment of being awesome, except you get that moment for the whole time.
If it wouldn't lag so badly, I'd love to see more events where you take on an army, rather than a single ugly monster. One of the reasons I love most of the ITF.
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Personally I don't like the playstyle found in WoW where you raid so you can get the gear you need to raid so you can get the gear you need to raid so you can get the gear you need to raid so you can get the gear you need to.....see where I'm going with this?
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this is a theme im seeing by alot of you CoH players. Do you guys not realize that its extremely fun to kill huge powerful bosses?
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That's a matter of opinion.
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Indeed, I never really saw the appeal of Hamidon raids. They seem difficult, boring and like herding cats.
Mothership raids on the other hand, have you as a part of a rampaging horde of heroes all kicking epic amounts of alien tail in their own style. It's like being in a comic book or cartoon where there's a mass battle with dozens of individual characters getting a moment of being awesome, except you get that moment for the whole time.
If it wouldn't lag so badly, I'd love to see more events where you take on an army, rather than a single ugly monster. One of the reasons I love most of the ITF.
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I ran Hami once, and it would have been far more awesome besides the fact that my computer is a terrible machine and lagged the whole time
the challenge there was timing tbh and the adrenaline rush of trying not to mess up, but ymmv and all that
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Indeed, I never really saw the appeal of Hamidon raids. They seem difficult, boring and like herding cats.
Mothership raids on the other hand, have you as a part of a rampaging horde of heroes all kicking epic amounts of alien tail in their own style.
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Hami raids aren't my cup of tea. Mothership raids are fun but generally lag-fests. I'd love to see a new type of encounter designed for (let's say) 10-16 players and instanced. Ideally you'd have some type of team invite mechanism, unlike the Hive. Obviously this wouldn't appeal to everyone but it'd open the door to encounters that are more epic than are possible with 8 players yet potentially require more teamwork, and would hopefully not have the lag problems of mothership raids.
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I played WoW for 4 years, Everquest for 3 before that. Its only fun on the surface, once you realize you can't get any further without doing raids/pvp its pretty pointless to continue playing. Warhammer Online adopted an even more rigorous pvp philosophy. You can't get any of the high end sets through anything other than pvp. These games all have a set path to glory and anyone who doesn't wish to follow that path is just doomed.
I really hope that COH doesn't adopt this content philosophy.
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CoH *can't* adopt that philosophy. You can't replace your Fulcrum Shift with Fulcrum Shift +2. You can't replace Inferno with Uber Inferno. We're not gear based.
But that point aside, this notion of "it's only fun on the surface" applies to pretty much any PvE MMO, doesn't it? In our game you fight baddies so you can fight tougher baddies. Having your character get more powerful is a fun feeling. In WoW you raid so you can do tougher raids. People get their kicks from making their characters more powerful, and it probably all looks pretty silly and pointless to a non-MMO playing observer. 
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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But that point aside, this notion of "it's only fun on the surface" applies to pretty much any PvE MMO, doesn't it? In our game you fight baddies so you can fight tougher baddies. Having your character get more powerful is a fun feeling. In WoW you raid so you can do tougher raids. People get their kicks from making their characters more powerful, and it probably all looks pretty silly and pointless to a non-MMO playing observer.
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I guess it would depend. In the standard MMO advancement path there isn't much variation to success. In COH there are multiple paths and I think there is more depth in the COH model than I think the other MMOs have. However, depth can me measured on different levels with different standards for the content depth is being applied to.
I think Everquest had hands down the most in depth lore and stories behind quests. COH has an amazing story as well, I'm not knocking that. I'm just saying that depth can be measured with different subject matter.
Superficial fun, fun on the surface that begins to fade as you realize what the real game is about, was primarily what i was referring to. COH doesn't have that pitfall, to me at least. As has been stated in previous replies though, the people who don't like the coh model wouldn't very well like that applied to WoW and the same can be said for COH conversely. It all depends on what people find fun.
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Threads discussing other MMO's are not allowed outside the Comic Hero/Villain forum and we do not allow direct comparisons as per the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines.
That being said in CoH the focus is not on the "end game" content, but rather the game as a whole. There is a fair amount of content designed for high level characters, but it is not the focus of the game.
Similarly the advanced "loot" such as IO's or Hami-O's are not necessary for playing the game but do make a dramatic difference if you choose to use them. Our content is balanced around the purchasable enhancements and any content should be completable with those enhancements only.
As for super groups yes, there is a huge number of great groups and many use other applications for voice communication (teamspeak, vent, skype, etc.) as a supplement to the in game chat. I won't recommend any specifically but a great way to get to know people is to use your server forum. Ask around there about different groups and you will probably be surprised at the amount of positive feedback you receive.
As for PvP I can't offer too much advice, as I am not a huge PvP'er personally. If you are interested in seeing it in action and trying it out, I'd suggest you attend a couple events held on your server by the PvPEC. They support a wide level of skill ranges and have events designed for the newer players as well as veterans.
Hope that is helpful!
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It depends. The Mothership Raid, for example, doesn't have a super-tough endboss (U'Kon'Grai goes down in seconds), instead you have a ton of players fighting a literal army of enemies, which is fun and rewarding... but very very laggy.
Hm, maybe a WoW-style raid might not be so bad after all.