Should this character stay?


Constant_Motion

 

Posted

I rolled up a Fire/Kin last week and today got him to 25. Mostly because I thought of an amusing name.

Solo, the character is incredibly weak. It seems that everything in the primary does minor damage. Very minor. I ended up eating a veteran respec to move from Super Speed to Flight so I would have another attack, even if it is a melee attack on a squishy. Apart from Char, the next best thing is ... my taunt aura. I didn't know squishies had a taunt aura.

Fortunately, teamed, my primary may as well not exist. I exist to provide Kin buffs to players who are constantly blocked or out of range. I feel like the mother bird with a nest full of cuckoo chicks.

Will this character ever become enjoyable to play?

FWIW, the build looks something like this now:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

Laird of Kinfyre: Level 25 Mutation Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Char -- Acc(A), Acc(3), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), Dmg(11), RechRdx(13)
Level 1: Transfusion -- Acc(A), Acc(5), RechRdx(15), Heal(23)
Level 2: Siphon Power -- Acc(A), Acc(7), RechRdx(15)
Level 4: Fire Cages -- Acc(A), EndRdx(7)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- Acc(A), Acc(9), Dmg(9), Dmg(25)
Level 8: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- Acc(A), Acc(11), RechRdx(23)
Level 12: Flashfire -- Acc(A), Acc(13), Dmg(25)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(17), Heal(17)
Level 18: Hot Feet -- Acc(A), EndRdx(19), Dmg(19)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Speed Boost -- EndMod(A)
Level 24: Increase Density -- EndRdx(A)
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Why I always take and slot up my single target immobilize on controllers that have one. It is usually one of your key damage powers as a pre-pet controller. I don't know how people skip doing that unless they are always teamed or are power leveled. I still have and use ring of fire on my lvl 50 fire/rad.

If you are that annoyed by kinetics though, I'd say probably not the character for you. I have a hard time sticking with my kinetics for the same reason.


 

Posted

Fire/kins are late bloomers. 32 is the first big jump with imps, 35 for tranference so you're not gasping for breath all the time, and FS at 38 makes fire/kins one of the most powerful AT's in the game. Personally, it's one of my favorite characters, but you'll be very busy.


 

Posted

&lt;QR&gt;

"Taunt aura"? Hot Feet is supposed to be your primary damage source (that and Imps, once you get them). It's a damage aura. Your other powers are controls, so of course they're not going to be churning out the damage. They're busy churning out the control. Drop Fire Cages just often enough to keep up Containment, and rock those Hot Feet. That's your AoE damage output. At 32 you get Imps to add some single-target damage, and 38 Fulcrum Shift to turn mediocre controller damage into insane capped damage.

I'm not sure what you were really expecting from the only hero archetype that doesn't have a powerset based on damage.


I team with the Repeat Offenders.

 

Posted

I suppose that if I am going to enjoy a controller, I need to choose a secondary whose chief purpose is not team buffs. I have a level 50 controller I levelled a couple years ago, but she is Illusion/Empathy and does not play well with strangers either.

My rad/archery defender is enjoyable to play, but I'm not terribly interested in playing a set I have in a primary as a secondary on another character. Defenders also get endurance help; I suspect endurance on a rad controller would be a larger problem.

What are the other non-buffing controller secondaries? Storm? Trick Arrow? Storm is not particularly team friendly as far as I can see. Trick Arrow has never impressed either.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Storm can be very team friendly. It takes one of two things -- skill, or Fire Cages (or any of the other frequent, area -KB powers). A Fire/Storm is a damage monster, good solo, good teamed. Same for Plant/Storm as I understand it (my Fire/Storm is 33, my Plant/Storm only 9 or so).

Meanwhile, Kinetics does not have to be played as a buff-heavy set. Speed Boost does not take that long to apply, and only the most petulant teammates should be whining as long as you keep it up most of the time. There's no need to worry about the occasional lapse, in my opinion. Other than that and ID, you have Transfusion (which can heal you), Siphon Power (which debuffs the enemies, and buffs you), Siphon Speed (buff, and again buff you), IR (free travel power), Transference (free Stamina substitute), and Fulcrum Shift (HUGE buff for you and your pets). So there's plenty of selfish powers here.

I have never played TA very far, but its area debuffs should be quite useful both solo and teamed. Not sure why -def, -res, -dmg, -speed, -rech, sleep, hold, knockdown, and damage wouldn't be worthwhile.

I'm not really sure what your expectations on a controller are. You're going to have lots of control. If you're aiming for something else, why are you choosing this archetype? If you are aiming for control, pick something with lots of control (Earth or Mind primaries are good for this; Storm, TA, and Rad secondaries also good for it) and go to town. Until the high levels with optimized builds ({Fire,Plant}/{Kin,Rad,Storm}), controllers are not high-damage soloists; most never get to that point. It's not a blaster or a tanker. If you want a blaster or a tanker, go play one. (Edit: The "or a tanker" is probably confusing here... I didn't mean that tankers have high damage, but rather to add in the point that controllers do not have safety in the same way that tankers do. Ignore that point if it is unclear, I seem to have been babbling.)

That's not meant as a "get out of our AT" comment. I just want to clarify -- I'm trying to provide a reality check, as you seem unfamiliar with controllers and expecting them to play a certain way that they are not. If I've misread, please disregard the relevant parts of my post.


I team with the Repeat Offenders.

 

Posted

My ill/emp goes through periods of feeling fairly powerful (mostly when PA is up) and hiding (when down). With that character, it's mostly a lack of recharge. PA has 3 recharges in it: not enough. Almost all of the Empathy buffs are 3 slotted for recharge: not enough. She has Hasten: not enough.

I suppose I could mess around with IO sets, but other characters have much higher priority. To the extent that she even has IOs, they're all generic, or the ones that she gets because no other character is able to slot them. Last time I respecced the character I saw that more than half of her enhancements were for recharge.

I noted the apparent ubiquity of fire/kins and just thought that this was apparently a recommended combination. So far at least the character doesn't have the recharge issues of my ill/emp, I'll say that much. But I guess I am learning that I do not enjoy the role of a buff-bot.

I like to have a range of characters on different levels on my home server, which is slowly filling with 50s. I didn't want to make another tanker or scrapper; the few primaries there are ones I know I didn't want (i.e. Dark Armor or Invuln as a scrapper). I suppose I wanted to try something different, and just understood that fire/kin was supposed to be a strong combination. At level 25 I am not seeing it.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

Couple of things, F/K really gets powerful at 38. I kinda had fun until then but after 38 it was a BLAST! SB sucks... I hate giving it but love getting it so I go along to get along. Points of note, swap swift for hurdle, AS for haste, fly for SS. Put Hot Feet off until after Transferance.


 

Posted

I found the similar problem with my Fire/Thermal Controller, in that, with a team, I spend a LOT of time just tending to the others and not getting to use my Fire/ powers much. I agree with the above person who said that taking Ring of Fire makes good sense. It does respectable damage for a Controller.

I have a Plant/TA that plays well, with the /TA powers useful both on teams and solo. /Storm is likewise very good in both situations without taking up 100% of your time on teams. Give these two secondaries a try and see if they mesh with your playstyle a little better.


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Posted

While I have controllers what are primarily team buffers (one being an ill/emp), my plant/storm was immediately easy to team or solo with.

Also, you can play kin without it being a constant buffer. My husband plays a mind/kin who doesn't even have speed boost, siphon speed, or density increase.


 

Posted

A kin w/o speed boost? He must team with some very tolerant, easy going, and understanding people


Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom

 

Posted

As popular as Fire/Kin is, there is a good reason so many power-level them -- the low levels are hard to get through. If you don't want to PL (I didn't), then you earn the right to those great upper level powers by slogging through the lower levels. Once you get Fire Imps at 32, Transference at 35 and Fulcrum Shift at 38, you can do huge amounts of damage. Personally, however, I like my Fire/Rad more -- I find him to be more fun.

A couple of quick things about your build:

As others have said, Ring of Fire slotted as a damage power helps a lot if you want to solo. Still, solo controllers in lower levels are generally fairly slow.

Fire Cages needs 2 Accuracy first, then EndRdx. It has a 20% accuracy penalty (0.8 base accuracy) like most AoE controls.

Flashfire: Don't put Damage in there -- it needs 2 Acc, 2 Rech, 2 Stun, or maybe 2 Acc, 3 Rech, 1 Stun. This plus Fire Cages is your key control combo.

Get Hot Feet slotted up with more EndRdx as soon as you can. You generally want to slot max EndRdx, then some Accuracy and as much damage as you can fit in. Once you get Transference, you can back down some on the EndRdx. IO set slotting and "frankenslotting" can really help here.

With Transfusion, you shouldn't need three heals in Health unless you want those slots for some procs.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

I do intend to pick up Ring of Fire if the character lasts another level. Ran a Moonfire yesterday with the character, and I was told that I was expected to have Increase Density, so that's what I got at level 24. The guides I looked at told me to take Char instead at level 1.

I'd probably just as soon have only Increase Density and skip Speed Boost. ID at least seems useful. I dislike SB on my non-Stone tankers, brutes, and scrappers (and don't play my stone tanker much). These characters typically slot hard for endurance recovery, so the benefits of more recharge tend to be much offset by the loss of movement predictability, and therefore of control over where you are going to put down your Foot Stomps and other AoEs.

Then again, asking that you be skipped for Speed Boost doesn't work either. It's not fun being the tanker on a team where every other character is three times as fast on the ground as you are. I guess I just have to turn on Fly whenever I get hit with it. But Foot Stomp won't work with Fly.

So part of the reason why I made this character and am trying to learn how to play him is to learn what things look like from the other side. I promise I won't complain again.

Edit: The mother of a cuckoo chick.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

it is my opinion, that all Fire/kins should be shot.

But that is only because I like when I see controllers controlling, not doing damage.

Thus, earth and ice are my favorite trollers...and they are usually paired with Sonic or TA...


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
it is my opinion, that all Fire/kins should be shot.

But that is only because I like when I see controllers controlling, not doing damage.


[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. How DARE someone play an AT in a way OTHER than what you think is proper?!? THE ARROGANCE.

*sigh*


 

Posted

haha, like I said *opinion*

In no way is my way better.

Edit: But I do always appreciate attacks


 

Posted

Here is where Jack McCoy would explain that your opinion crossed the line and became an action when you exhorted your fellow players to brutally gun down Fire/Kins. Of course, this is approximately 30-40 minutes (plus ads) after Lennie Briscoe finds the corpse, tentatively identified as one "Leeroy Fire/Kin", and makes an inappropriate pun about him being "fired" or notifying his next of "kin".

*DUN DUN*


I team with the Repeat Offenders.

 

Posted

Oh...no...so what am I looking at here? 5-10 years?


 

Posted

Depends on whether you can afford a recurring-character lawyer or not. They get to appear on screen twice, and thus you can hold out for the second plea deal. If all you get is an extra, you'd better take the first offer.


I team with the Repeat Offenders.

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
it is my opinion, that all Fire/kins should be shot.

But that is only because I like when I see controllers controlling, not doing damage.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fallacy #1 (with sub-fallacies). If you have a Fire/Kin you are a) a bad player b) PL'd c) only interested in damage and refuse to buff teammates

Fallacy #2. Fire/Kins and Fire/X have no/little control



I could go into detail, but I'll just leave it at that.


Gross generalizations are gross.


@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

 

Posted

&lt;Quick Reply&gt;
I think, if you want to keep the character and enjoy it, you should use your second build to create a more solo-focused toon, a 'real Controller' instead of a Kinetics-bot. Play that for a bit and then use that experience to decide how much to tell those Buff-bot wanting teammates to go jump in the Hollows.

A Controller should be about their Primary, not a gimped version of a Defender. And you should play a character so that You are having fun, rather than being a slave to the desires of your teammates.

Be Well!
Fireheart


 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
&lt;Quick Reply&gt;
I think, if you want to keep the character and enjoy it, you should use your second build to create a more solo-focused toon, a 'real Controller' instead of a Kinetics-bot. Play that for a bit and then use that experience to decide how much to tell those Buff-bot wanting teammates to go jump in the Hollows.

A Controller should be about their Primary, not a gimped version of a Defender. And you should play a character so that You are having fun, rather than being a slave to the desires of your teammates.

Be Well!
Fireheart

[/ QUOTE ]

So with that logic a defender should skip most of its secondary and not take attacks? Thats a pure healer argument, and I think we all know how that ends. The truth is a controller (or any AT for that matter) isn't at its peak performance until it utilizes both its primary and secondary. And I would argue that a controller doesn't show its true potential until teamed and using both its control and its buff/debuffs. That old "primary only" argument is just an excuse for someone not to do their job; and controllers whether people want to admit it or not are support builds. If you want to control and not support, play a dominator. Until then, SB plz.


@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff

 

Posted

I took the character out for a Citadel this evening. Those Council maps are full of reasons why I don't like Speed Boost all that much on my melee characters.

I did not try to keep everyone SBed, and tried to use it mostly on anyone I saw panting. Mostly, the other controller. I made ID more of a priority buff; it's about all that Kin has to help melees, and it helps squishies even more. And after the tanks had gathered some together, I tried to make more use of my AoE holds and immobilizes.

Still not sure if I am going to be doing this to everyone's satisfaction, but at least there wasn't any complaining.



<《 New Colchis / Guides / Mission Architect 》>
"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

 

Posted

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it is my opinion, that all Fire/kins should be shot.

But that is only because I like when I see controllers controlling, not doing damage.



[/ QUOTE ]

Fallacy #1 (with sub-fallacies). If you have a Fire/Kin you are a) a bad player b) PL'd c) only interested in damage and refuse to buff teammates

Fallacy #2. Fire/Kins and Fire/X have no/little control



I could go into detail, but I'll just leave it at that.


Gross generalizations are gross.

[/ QUOTE ]


I never said they are bad players, they are not a style that I subscribe to. Said and done.

As far as saying fire lacks control, I would say it lacks control compared to earth and ice, which the rest of my post essentially said. Since *I* like to do lots of really really intense controlling, fire is not for me.


 

Posted

See sig. *I'm* pretty fond of control myself *and* I do not subscribe to the "damage first" trend that is being pushed around here lately. *I'm* just saying that fire controls just fine and it's a fallacy when people say it doesn't. Anyone who is around here knows that earth is far and away my favorite primary and yes it does "more" control, but that doesn't make fire inadequate.

And I'm not too sure why "all fire/kins should be shot" just because of "their" playstyle. *And* there are fire/kin builds that are centered around support and teaming by the way. And there are plenty of *us* out there. So put the gun down.


@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff