Well, first of all, Tar Patch only does -30% res because it is a dropped psuedo-pet. "Pet" powers often do not have different values depending on the Archetype's modifiers. In some cases they do, so obviously one solution would be to have Masterminds get their own version of Tar Patch that has only a 18% -Res. Acid Arrow for Defenders is -25% Res and -25% Def.
Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "What good is -Def when your enemies are still coming at you." Sure, if you have capped to hit, -Def isn't really all that useful. Still, a -Def of 15% is about the same as a -Res of 30%, using the rule of thumb that 1 Res = 2 Def. Sure, you would like to have a little more damage, but that's what Disruption Arrow is for. (And wouldn't you know it, it doesn't have the Defender level debuff, although it does have the Controller version)
Third, Trick Arrow isn't really a defensive/debuff set like Dark is. It is more of a combination of debuff and controls. You've got fairly good defenses, better accuracy than Dark, an outright hold, and some other soft controls, plus the ability to light Oil Slick.
You can't really compare one effect to another straight out, unfortunately.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, first of all, Tar Patch only does -30% res because it is a dropped psuedo-pet. "Pet" powers often do not have different values depending on the Archetype's modifiers. In some cases they do, so obviously one solution would be to have Masterminds get their own version of Tar Patch that has only a 18% -Res. Acid Arrow for Defenders is -25% Res and -25% Def.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not a solution that's a nerf. Nerfing /dark won't help make /ta any better so that's pointless. Yes I realize that there are different versions of different powers.
[ QUOTE ]
Second, I'm not sure what you mean by "What good is -Def when your enemies are still coming at you." Sure, if you have capped to hit, -Def isn't really all that useful. Still, a -Def of 15% is about the same as a -Res of 30%, using the rule of thumb that 1 Res = 2 Def. Sure, you would like to have a little more damage, but that's what Disruption Arrow is for. (And wouldn't you know it, it doesn't have the Defender level debuff, although it does have the Controller version)
[/ QUOTE ]
What I was saying is that -def isn't as helpful as -res is. So being able to remove softcap helps yes, but being able to down a target faster is better. So if 1 res = 1 def why not just remove the def and give more res? Disruption does help but when it's recharge is merely 30 seconds shorter than tar patch and does half as much. Why not make disruption a pseudo pet considering it's "dropped" just like tar patch and increase it's -res 10%.
[ QUOTE ]
Third, Trick Arrow isn't really a defensive/debuff set like Dark is. It is more of a combination of debuff and controls. You've got fairly good defenses, better accuracy than Dark, an outright hold, and some other soft controls, plus the ability to light Oil Slick.
[/ QUOTE ]
/Dark has an outright hold, just about the same amount of soft control with FS and tarpatch vs glue arrow-oilslick arrow. The ability to light oil slick is nice, but logically this situation shouldn't exist. Considering dark has a heal and wayyyy better t9. Like it's not like /dark slightly competes with /ta in debuffs, it literally outshines it without a second guess.
Fortunately though the devs can fix this, if it involves nerfing tar patch then it'll be clear that they are more focused on easy ways out than they are on actual balance. Which wouldn't suprise me, but I'd be horribly dissapointed. Yes I know this is a bad time to ask for a fix like this, but I just can't wrap my mind around how one set can literally do just as much debuffing in less time and still have a heal.../ta may be a debuff/soft control, but it definately is focused more on the /debuff part. 3 arrows go towards control, entangling is nice to have I won't lie but is it as useful as a heal, no. Ice is another "nice to have" but really truley isn't needed, sure holding 1 target might help but considering you basically are forced into taking every other arrow leaving it out is often the case. I could take 6 powers out of dark and be more effective than taking 8 powers from /ta. Without shadowfall that makes 5...it just doesn't make sense.
Why not give /ta a arrowbot type pet, sort of like gundrone. Except it shoots debuffs like the dark servant. Now that would be an awesome fix as long as it was just as hard to kill. I mean that's kinda shooting for the moon, but any help would be good help in this case. I'm not asking for miracles, just some serious thought and reconsideration into this situation. I personally LOVE /ta and will still play it on all my MM's, /dark is just feels bad to play...I really wish MM's had more secondaries designed for them alone instead of just throwing other AT's at them and hoping for synergy, but that probably won't happen anytime soon. Who knows though if they devs shut me up on that one I'd be more than happy to bow down and say I'm wrong. Even if that did happen though, I still think /ta should be made a better set simply because of the fun level it has that you truely can't realize until playing with.
[ QUOTE ]
You're probably wondering why I didn't take into account oil slick arrow as much, well it's simply because the recharge is 2min. That's up maybe every second group. Emp arrow is practically useless unless you stumble across an AV but even then you risk losing ALL of your other debuffs simply because lack of end.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really much of an issue. Slap 3 recharge enhancements into OSA and it's up plenty often enough. As for TA doing nothing but debuffing... It's got a very healthy mix of debuffs, soft control, and hard control. Poison Gas arrow will frequently sleep half to all of the enemies it hits. Glue arrow nukes the enemy's movement and recharge rate. Things with flamethrowers and shotguns may as well be held if you snag them with entangle arrow since they can't hit you at mid range. You get a single target hold and an aoe hold too. BTW with emp arrow... The period of no end recovery isn't that long. Nor do your debuffs fade just because your low on endurance. They are fire and forget. Once out they have zero additional end cost.
[ QUOTE ]
What I'd really truly love is some risk for reward type attitude for /ta. It simply doesn't compete in real situations compared to dark. Not only am I in the mix of everything and constantly shooting, I have to try and heal each of my pets with aid other? I bet anyone in there right mind would trade flash arrow of uselessness for a heal arrow or something. Now I'm not saying nerf /dark cause that's just stupid and is the easy/obvious way out of the situation. Instead I'm asking to reconsider /ta as a set to buff, or just simply change. If it doesn't get any sort of attention well literally all /ta's should just re-roll as a /dark, not only do you get to heal all of your pets, you get another pet that will help you heal/debuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I have to disagree. First off all TA does very well on it's own. It actually doesn't need a heal. Nor would a healing arrow make any sense. Think about it. If someone told you "I'm going to fire an arrow from my bow at you, and it will heal your wounds upon piercing your flesh" would you believe them?
Against AV's a TA is still useful beyond using one arrow. Flash arrow will debuff the AV's to-hit by the same amount as rad or dark. Why? While the others have higher base debuffs, TA's to-hit debuff is unresistable. All three will debuff the AV's to-hit by about 5%. Maybe 10% at most. While doing that (easy to perma) TA is also likely imobilizing the AV, reducing it's damage, nuking it's power recharge, and reducing it's resistance. In short if your /TA mastermind is relying just on EMP arrow in AV fights, their not contributing all they can.
Come to think of it, my /TA mastermind has to resummon pets less frequently then the MM's I've got who can heal pets. I've also got a TA/A defender who does a dang good job keeping teams on their feet without a heal. Aid Other is handy, but not required.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
What I was saying is that -def isn't as helpful as -res is. So being able to remove softcap helps yes, but being able to down a target faster is better. So if 1 res = 1 def why not just remove the def and give more res? Disruption does help but when it's recharge is merely 30 seconds shorter than tar patch and does half as much. Why not make disruption a pseudo pet considering it's "dropped" just like tar patch and increase it's -res 10%.
[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting fact, acid arrow is not just a defense debuff. It's also a resistance debuff. That means you DO deal more damage, and hit more often too.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Somewhere mid-read in the OP this is all my brain was taking in:
I really like oranges, and since they're also fruit, I want to really, equally like apples. The thing is that apples simply aren't as good as oranges. I mean, look at the two. Oranges and apples both have skins, but orange peals are way thicker. They're both juicy, but oranges are way juicier. I can make a glass of juice with only a few oranges and little effort, but it takes a whole bunch of apples and a lot of processing to make a good glass of apple juice. They both have seeds, but apple seeds are in the core which you totally can't easily eat but you can eat the meat of the orange where the orange seeds are. They're supposed to be roughly equal fruits but oranges are clearly superior in every way. And let's not even get into the fact that some apples are green while others are red, but oranges are just orange. WTG God/Mother Nature/Natural Selection!
I love Dark. I have for a long time, long before most people seemed to even figure out what it could really do. I fondly remember the days of people asking WTH a Dark/ Defender even was. It's been a while since I personally played around seriously with TA at all (Devs, please give us Archery/TA Corruptors!!!), but I really do not recall ever having any complaints about it playing it or with team mates other than it still suffers from the same condition Dark used to suffer from. Most people just don't seem to get what TA is/does.
[ QUOTE ]
Somewhere mid-read in the OP this is all my brain was taking in:
I really like oranges, and since they're also fruit, I want to really, equally like apples. The thing is that apples simply aren't as good as oranges. I mean, look at the two. Oranges and apples both have skins, but orange peals are way thicker. They're both juicy, but oranges are way juicier. I can make a glass of juice with only a few oranges and little effort, but it takes a whole bunch of apples and a lot of processing to make a good glass of apple juice. They both have seeds, but apple seeds are in the core which you totally can't easily eat but you can eat the meat of the orange where the orange seeds are. They're supposed to be roughly equal fruits but oranges are clearly superior in every way. And let's not even get into the fact that some apples are green while others are red, but oranges are just orange. WTG God/Mother Nature/Natural Selection!
I love Dark. I have for a long time, long before most people seemed to even figure out what it could really do. I fondly remember the days of people asking WTH a Dark/ Defender even was. It's been a while since I personally played around seriously with TA at all (Devs, please give us Archery/TA Corruptors!!!), but I really do not recall ever having any complaints about it playing it or with team mates other than it still suffers from the same condition Dark used to suffer from. Most people just don't seem to get what TA is/does.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your telling me. I made my TA/A defender in issue 5 when even the devs admitted they'd accidentally gimped it. At the time I got booted from soo many teams while playing a TA defender due to lacking a heal. Most of the time the teams didn't even give me a chance. And yet when teams did I managed to amaze them with TA's capabilities even WITH the set being gimped at the time.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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That's not a solution that's a nerf. Nerfing /dark won't help make /ta any better so that's pointless. Yes I realize that there are different versions of different powers.
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Yes, that would be a nerf. However, if a Defender were to do exactly the same damage with, say, Nova that a Blaster does, the equivalent of the same 1.125 damage mod, and no other Defender Tier 9 did this, likely both Blaster and Defender players (those who didn't play /Energy) would point out this inconsistency. And if the devs were to change the Defender version of Nova so it has the same 0.65 damage mod that all other Defender attacks do, this would also be a nerf.
Of course, this sort of thing is already constantly happening all the time when it comes to psuedo-pets anyway. For instance, Blizzard.
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Why not make disruption a pseudo pet considering it's "dropped" just like tar patch and increase it's -res 10%.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, Disruption IS a psuedo-pet. It uses the Controller scale. (Controllers don't get Dark Miasma, so that is probably why there is only the one version of Tar Patch. Although note Corruptors get it, too. And it does exactly the same -30% Res it does for a MM)
To make a long thread short, Dark is a mostly defensive set. It excels at keeping you and your allies safe. TA is a well balanced mix of offensive and defensive debuffs and controls. It excels at nothing, but does all things well.
For the other side of the coin, look at Kinetic. Its defensive capability is very low (to the Defender himself, there is only the -Dam from Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift, although Fulcrum Shift's damage reduction can get pretty extreme) but it has extremely powerful +Dam and Endurance/Recharge boosting abilities. This can turn a whole team into damage dealing monsters. 
i'm not seeing a problem here. ta has it's uses.
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I'll start off by saying this, if /TA is supposed to be better at debuffing than /Dark the devs have failed miserably,
[/ QUOTE ]
Where did you read a developer statement indicating that TA was intended to surpass Dark in debuffing capabilities?
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit, but after playing TAs since the set was released, and talking to Castle extensively about TA, I have yet to be told, read or conclude that TA was intended to be "better" than Dark, at anything.
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and considering /ta doesn't do anything but debuff
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you mean, "TA doesn't buff"? Because it does have four controls (two Holds, one Immobilize, one Sleep).
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Then I got to thinking how our secondaries compared...well needless to say /dark overtakes /ta by a landslide. Here's my evidence.
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Lube up.
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Tar patch does -30% res while acid arrow does -15% res and -15% defense. Along with disruption arrow that does another -15% res I'll get the equal amount of -res that tar patch has gotten in less time
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Acid Arrow - 1.83s
Disruption Arrow - 1.17s
Total animation time - 3s
Tar Patch - 3.1s
You were saying something about Tar Patch being faster?
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and with less risk simply because of the slow.
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That Slow has no -Recharge and does absolutely nothing to prevent the enemies from firing back. So no, you're not experiencing a reduction in risk. If anything, your risk is greater with Tar Patch (unless you're casting around a corner) because you're exposed for that extra 0.1s.
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Not to mention that acid arrow needs to be fired off repeatedly just to keep that -res up.
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Once every 20s is "constantly"? Most fights shouldn't take you more than 20-30s to complete, so what's going on that's forcing you to reapply Acid "constantly"?
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It's slightly equal simply because acid arrow being capable of recharging faster than the -res wears off, causing stacking.
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Acid doesn't stack with itself when fired by the same caster.
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BUT disruption arrow wears off before it recharges usually keeping me at -15% res.
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Try using enhancements. The duration is 35s, the animation time is 1.17s, you can have it recharged in ~32s with three Recharge SOs.
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Sure you can say the -15% def is the balance but what's that going to do when you're enemies are already running at you.
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If you can't keep your enemies inside your debuff AoE, change your tactics.
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Even if you do go glue arrow-acid arrow-disruption arrow you still have wasted drastic amounts of time compared to dark with it's ONE power.
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Glue Arrow - 1.17s animation time.
Not drastic. Not even close to drastic.
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That's three powers from /ta just to try and compete with one from dark.
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Okay, now how many powers will the Dark player have to add to match the -Recharge and -Def you added with TA?
Oh, Dark doesn't have any -Def? And its only source of -Recharge is in one power with a 3 minute base recharge time and a 3.17s animation time?
Hm...
Starting to see why your imaginary competition is ridiculous?
[ QUOTE ]
Next comes the -tohit. Flash arrow does -3.75% tohit, it's recharge is relatively low, but the debuff itself is almost usless.
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Do you have Maneuvers on your Merc/TA? Do you have the 5% +Def unique? Are those powers useless?
Flash Arrow is equal to those, when slotted for -ToHit. In fact, it's better, because it has no continuing toggle cost or "Psi hole".
Flash Arrow isn't meant to be an IWIN button. If that's what you want or need, you're playing the wrong powerset. Stop, delete the character and start over with something else.
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Even with the -90% perc, simply because perc isn't what i'm worried about when I'm attacking and the enemy can obviously see me. Compare this to darkest night and it's no contest. DN has -11.3% tohit AND -22.5% dmg debuff, so now not only does DN outshine flash arrow by a drastic amounts, it outshines acid arrow with it's -15% dmg debuff. Once again two of my powers don't even equal one toggle power which may take more end, but when you're an MM end isn't really an issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
How much -ToHit does Darkest Night apply to an AV?
I'll give you a hint: less than Flash Arrow.
How much -ToHit does Flash Arrow apply to an AV?
Here's another hint: more than all of Dark's -ToHit combined.
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All of this doesn't even take into account Fearsome Stare which is another -11.3% tohit taking it to a total -22.6% tohit whenever FS is up, and the enemy in question is feared. Oh yeah lets not forget the good old dark servant as well, which basically doubles all these numbers once again.
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to be focused on one specific way to mitigate damage, to the point of ignoring every other option at your disposal. TA doesn't play that way. TA wasn't designed that way. TA doesn't support your need for it be that way, nor will it ever.
TA gives you multiple methods of mitigation. You use as many or as few as each individual combat situation dictates. You choose your own level of safety with TA. If you choose to sit in a corner, moaning over your "little" -ToHit value and ignoring the rest of your options, or complaining about having to use more than one power in a fight, then that's your own fault.
Either play it, or don't. Don't come here and complain because it's not Dark 2.0.
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Healing is another thing lacking majorly in /ta,
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Bull crap. That statement is so wrong that it's not even worth addressing with anything more polite or reasoned. It's just plain bull crap.
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The total numbers of all the debuffs if you got them stacked in dark WITHOUT the dark servant are: -26.35% tohit, -30% dmg, -30% res. Compared to /ta which is as follows: -3.75% tohit, -30% res, -45% def, -15% dmg.
[/ QUOTE ]
You conveniently left out TA's 40% -Recharge, 200% -RunSpeed, 8.5 -MaxRunSpeed, 100,000% -JumpHeight, 20 -Fly, 200 -KB/KU, 5% chance for Knockdown every 0.2s, 50 -End, 50 Avoid, mag 2 AoE Sleep, two Holds (one AoE) and 90% -Perception, all of which assist in mitigating, alleviating or removing incoming damage.
And you want to complain because your -ToHit or -Damage isn't as "big" as Dark's? Or because you don't have a heal?
Someone shoot me. Please.
[ QUOTE ]
Now yes the -def looks good but it doesn't help as much as -tohit would considering /ta has no heals. Not to mention the fact you're still taking more dmg than the /dark on top of it all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Making enemies easier to hit, thereby defeating them sooner, which in turn leads to fewer chances to be hit overall, isn't as helpful as making enemies hit less frequently?
Think about it.
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You're probably wondering why I didn't take into account oil slick arrow as much
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I thought it was because you don't have it at level 32, so you couldn't make an accurate judgment on how well or poorly it worked for you.
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well it's simply because the recharge is 2min.
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3 minutes base, can be reduced to ~91s with enhancements, lower (as low as 36s at the recharge cap) with +Recharge from additional sources.
But, hey, what would I know about TA. Or how it plays. Or how game mechanics work. *shrug*
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That's up maybe every second group.
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For someone who has to "constantly" reapply Acid, I'd think it should be up twice per spawn.
Yeah, I went there. 
[ QUOTE ]
Emp arrow is practically useless unless you stumble across an AV but even then you risk losing ALL of your other debuffs simply because lack of end.
[/ QUOTE ]
...
EMP Arrow doesn't bottom out your endurance. It applies a -Recovery that prevents you from recovering endurance for 15s. Every TA player I've ever spoken with, every single one, has been capable of continuing to debuff and attack while that -Recovery is on them. I have used EMP Arrow and continued to debuff and attack.
Stop making melodramatic complaints about powers you haven't even used yet.
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What I'd really truly love is some risk for reward type attitude for /ta. It simply doesn't compete in real situations compared to dark.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not a competition. It's not an e-peen measuring contest. If that's what you think, you're playing the wrong way.
[ QUOTE ]
Not only am I in the mix of everything and constantly shooting, I have to try and heal each of my pets with aid other?
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could slot Flash Arrow for -ToHit, pick up Maneuvers or Grant Invis slotted for +Def, possibly toss a 5% +Def unique in the mix, use your TA powers more intelligently and let the Medic heal.
Nah. That might actually work, and we wouldn't want a TA to seem... capable.
Carry on with the cluelessness!
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I bet anyone in there right mind would trade flash arrow of uselessness for a heal arrow or something.
[/ QUOTE ]
You lost that bet.
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I'm asking to reconsider /ta as a set to buff, or just simply change.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you really want to "help" TA, shut up. Arguments like yours are so transparent, so poorly constructed, so lacking in anything even resembling fact, research or intelligently derived conclusions that they assure that TA would be thrust to the bottom of the heap and never be reviewed again if the developers actually paid any attention to them.
[ QUOTE ]
If it doesn't get any sort of attention well literally all /ta's should just re-roll as a /dark,
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You go do that. You go do that right away. That'll solve all of your problems, and ours. The rest of us in the TA community will be busy playing our TAs.
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What might work is taking away some of the -def for some more -res or more -dmg, and get rid of the pointless -tohit for something that might actually help. Emp arrow needs to re-considered simply because without endurance I'm not doing anything else, so why not cut the -regen/-recovery in half and take away the horrible crash. That way it'd be useful without commiting suicide. If you're going to get rid of an arrow make sure it's flash and not ice, ice can actually help offer some tiny amounts of control, flash does literally nothing when it comes down to it.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
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I just think something that's supposed to focus on debuffs should debuff better...
[/ QUOTE ]
TA has the widest variety of debuffs, plus multiple control options. It mitigates damage, it increases combat speed, it works very well at almost everything it was designed to do and be. If you can't play it, stop trying, and stop trying to get it changed to meet your desires, it's not going to happen.
[ QUOTE ]
How much -ToHit does Darkest Night apply to an AV?
I'll give you a hint: less than Flash Arrow.
How much -ToHit does Flash Arrow apply to an AV?
Here's another hint: more than all of Dark's -ToHit combined.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see the math on that if you have it lying around, because even though an AV's tohit debuff resistance is massive, if you can get the fluffy sitting on an AV and stack fearsome stares, you can get a -lot- of tohit debuff down.
None of which matters anyways because flash arrow is a 3.75% non resistable debuff (for MMs) which is still lowered by enemies being higher level than you, and dark has a 3.75% defense aura (among other things) which does literally the same thing, only enemy level doesn't scale it. So it evens out before dark's other tohit debuffs.
The rest of what you said still stands though.
As a sidenote, I still prefer freezing rain to anything either set does. Enough mitigation for most teams with the knockdown and slow, the -resists are as big as tarpatch, it's got -defense, and it's stackable if the fight lasts long enough. I really couldn't ask for anymore in a power.
....Remind me nevar to forum pvpeee with luminara!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
....Remind me nevar to forum pvpeee with luminara!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, if I could figure out how to record a vid of me playing... I'd boot up my thug/ta (or maybe my TA/A defender) and demonstrate how effective TA can be without healing... And how much of an impact the -recovery has on a fight.
In fact, if I do use EMP arrow, the battle usually is over before the 15 second debuff ends. Come to think of it, my defender at level 35 tends to only need 5 powers, sometimes 6.
Those powers in importance and usage are
Glue Arrow or EMP arrow
acid arrow
disruption arrow
oil slick arrow
magic charm (the origin specific attack) OR blazing arrow
Things which ignore slow may need to be immobilized in the resulting fire.
That will drop 16 minions, and almost kill any LT that's even level or +1. An LT may require an aimed shot or two. Bosses might require a couple more attacks beyond that.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I've got a Ninja/Dark MM and a Merc/TA MM and I can say that the Merc/TA MM is much, much more combat effective than my Nin/Dark.
Maybe TA just doesn't suit your playstyle.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
|
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How much -ToHit does Darkest Night apply to an AV?
I'll give you a hint: less than Flash Arrow.
How much -ToHit does Flash Arrow apply to an AV?
Here's another hint: more than all of Dark's -ToHit combined.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see the math on that if you have it lying around,
[/ QUOTE ]
Flash Arrow: 3.75%
Twilight Grasp - 3.75%
Fearsome Stare - 11.25%
Darkest Night - 11.25%
TG and FS have hit checks, so their final value has to be modified to 95% of the total to account for the 5% enforced miss rate. Additionally, I can't imagine anyone slotting TG for -ToHit instead of Heal, so my calculations don't include slotting TG for -ToHit.
TG + FS: ((3.75 + (11.25 * 1.56)) * 0.15) * 0.95 = 3.03525%
DN: (11.25 * 1.56) * 0.15 = 2.6325%
TG + FS + DN: 3.3345 + 2.6325 = 5.66775%
Flash Arrow: 3.75 * 1.56 = 5.85%
[ QUOTE ]
because even though an AV's tohit debuff resistance is massive, if you can get the fluffy sitting on an AV and stack fearsome stares, you can get a -lot- of tohit debuff down.
[/ QUOTE ]
I did not account for Dark Servant, because I don't have enough experience to know how reliable the pet is in combat, or how well it can survive inside melee range of an AV. Chill of the Night has a 10' radius, and Dark Servant is flagged to stay at range, so you first have to get it into the appropriate range for Chill to be applied (potentially easy, if you summon it at the feet of the AV), then keep it in that range (which means keeping the pet and the AV from moving), then keep it alive in the event that the AV uses PBAoEs or directly attacks the pet. Too many variables to properly account for, so I didn't include it.
Stacking FS, I also didn't include because it would expose variables which would alter the overall calculation, primarily slotting. It needs to be slotted for Accuracy, but beyond that, if you're slotting for -ToHit, then you're sacrificing +Recharge, or if you slot for +Recharge, you sacrifice -ToHit, and in either case, you still haven't slotted it for Endurance Reduction. It's no longer a simple 1+1 equation, the whole thing changes. Frankly, I don't know what the optimal slotting of FS would be, whether the character in question would have Hasten and/or Tactics (which would alleviate the slotting issue, but add the issue of even more rapid endurance consumption, which in and of itself affects the average -ToHit a Dark can apply)... too much recalculating for too many different variations for me to make any kind of accurate estimation of the contribution of double-stacked FS.
[ QUOTE ]
None of which matters anyways because flash arrow is a 3.75% non resistable debuff (for MMs) which is still lowered by enemies being higher level than you, and dark has a 3.75% defense aura (among other things) which does literally the same thing, only enemy level doesn't scale it. So it evens out before dark's other tohit debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
But adds another toggle to the total. In the short term, having a +Def buff toggle may make it appear that Dark has an edge, but in the long term (and AV fights do tend to be long), I expect the blue bar to be the limiting factor on how much -ToHit/+Def a Dark can sustainably apply.
But this was about -ToHit, not the total mitigation that can be cobbled together, so, I kept my response limited to -ToHit.
Beyond being a non-resistable aoe debuff to hit, which puts it above dark. Flash Arrow costs less time and endurance over time to keep that debuff up and you can apply it to several groups at once, further mitigating damage overall for yourself or the team. Dark debuffs also don't allow you to avoid combat. It has another End draining toggle for that.
TA has more debuff options. All of the abilities animate quickly. There are no toggles to eat end and most TA players don't even need stamina. I take it on my Bots/TA so that I can run leadership toggles. Try running all of your dark buffs and debuffs without stamina. It doesn't even have the variety and potential for debuffing and control, but has healing and buffing. This would be balanced but dark has to pay a massive end cost for it's benefits.
So I'm confused. Why isn't your arguement "Fix dark, TA gimps it in every way".
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Beyond being a non-resistable aoe debuff to hit, which puts it above dark. Flash Arrow costs less time and endurance over time to keep that debuff up and you can apply it to several groups at once, further mitigating damage overall for yourself or the team. Dark debuffs also don't allow you to avoid combat. It has another End draining toggle for that.
TA has more debuff options. All of the abilities animate quickly. There are no toggles to eat end and most TA players don't even need stamina. I take it on my Bots/TA so that I can run leadership toggles. Try running all of your dark buffs and debuffs without stamina. It doesn't even have the variety and potential for debuffing and control, but has healing and buffing. This would be balanced but dark has to pay a massive end cost for it's benefits.
So I'm confused. Why isn't your arguement "Fix dark, TA gimps it in every way".
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My thug/ta took stamina mostly because I know an active secondary like TA or Poison can eat into your end during long battles. Especially if spamming things like entangling arrow and ice arrow. And for EB/AV/GM battles I put entangle on auto to stack it enough to (hopefully) immobilize.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I did not account for Dark Servant, because I don't have enough experience to know how reliable the pet is in combat, or how well it can survive inside melee range of an AV. Chill of the Night has a 10' radius, and Dark Servant is flagged to stay at range, so you first have to get it into the appropriate range for Chill to be applied (potentially easy, if you summon it at the feet of the AV), then keep it in that range (which means keeping the pet and the AV from moving), then keep it alive in the event that the AV uses PBAoEs or directly attacks the pet. Too many variables to properly account for, so I didn't include it.
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While I'm not going to get into the actual Dark vs TA part of this thread (I've played lots and lots of Dark vs some TA, so I do have some bias, but neither set is exactly disappointing), I will say that you'll not be getting a true picture if you discount Dark Servant - his -tohit really is substantial, rivalling the Dark player that summoned him (plus a decent amount of additional -damage). In fact I'd say that AV fights are his strongest point, as he tends to be less reliable with his targetting in a busy environment, but once it's down to just one target he'll focus all his debuffing might on them.
For the most part the AV immobilise hole works in his favour there (his Tentacles plus patron immob, and the fact that once combat starts he rarely moves) so the majority of the time he'll stay next to the AV so long as he's alive. His ranged -tohit isn't too shabby either though (he gets a version of Darkest Night, along with Twilight Grasp and Tentacles' -tohit), it's just that it's twice as good if you can keep them in Chill of Night. Most of the time I find he survives ok due to the masses of -damage stacked on top of the -tohit, along with all the healspam (essentially, all the stuff keeping the rest of the team alive keeps him alive).
Also, I *think* Twilight Grasp maybe stacks, even from the same source and is somewhat spammable - it certainly stacked many many moons ago before real numbers etc when I was testing it to find the exact values, but I've not really paid attention to whether it still does (and I'm too lazy to go check now, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it ).
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Somewhere mid-read in the OP this is all my brain was taking in:
I really like oranges, and since they're also fruit, I want to really, equally like apples. The thing is that apples simply aren't as good as oranges. I mean, look at the two. Oranges and apples both have skins, but orange peals are way thicker. They're both juicy, but oranges are way juicier. I can make a glass of juice with only a few oranges and little effort, but it takes a whole bunch of apples and a lot of processing to make a good glass of apple juice. They both have seeds, but apple seeds are in the core which you totally can't easily eat but you can eat the meat of the orange where the orange seeds are. They're supposed to be roughly equal fruits but oranges are clearly superior in every way. And let's not even get into the fact that some apples are green while others are red, but oranges are just orange. WTG God/Mother Nature/Natural Selection!
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is. The "comparing apples to oranges" metaphor has always been fallacious and obtuse. The implication is that you can only compare things that are the same; even though apples and oranges are both fruits, both have seeds, both have skins, I still don't have a basis for a valid comparison. By that logic, I can't even compare one apple to another apple unless they're identical, because differences invalidate comparisons.
You can in fact compare apples to things besides other apples, and you can compare powerset performance. Had this same conversation about Poison and Pain Domination, and had to deal with the same meme that powerset performance is oh-so-nebulous and ineffable so "you can't really compare them". How aggrivatingly irrational. If you have an objective, you can set parameters for achieving it. If you have parameters, then you can evaluate the various means of achieving the objetive, even if the means are functionally dissimilar. You can compare a plane to a train in terms of which will get you to a destination faster or cheaper; if someone suggests that the comparison is invalid because one flies in the air and the other rides on tracks, they are being obtuse.
Since MMO's are very much objective-oriented, it is prefectly reasonable to compare the resources available to classes.
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is.
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The basic point is that the OP is making a statement that follows the following pattern:
"I feel that X should be better/equal/worse than Y"
The key word is "feel". It is impossible to put a number to a feeling. It's a subjective experience. It is possible to compare our experiences into what might be a better powerset, but what you might consider a metric is debatable too. We could compare the number of enemies that I could defeat per minute with powerset X. That might be an important metric to a farmer, but is it important to someone who is only playing the game to relax?
So, the "Apples to Oranges" argument comes up again. Sure, you can compare any metric you want between them, but those metrics are based on subjective opinions on what people feel are important. Which makes the OPs opinion important( which is that /TA feels like it underperforms), but comparing /TA to another powerset realy does not make for an compeling argument.
And for the record, I like travelling on trains as to planes. Why? The metric I use is that I feel safer on trains. So, I've just made a comparision based on an irrational fear( of flying actually). Try to factor that into an analysis as to whether planes or trains are "better" forms of tranport.
Grizz
"When Chuck Norris can't go on, Petra Majdič perseveres!"
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is.
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The basic point is that the OP is making a statement that follows the following pattern:
"I feel that X should be better/equal/worse than Y"
The key word is "feel". It is impossible to put a number to a feeling. It's a subjective experience. It is possible to compare our experiences into what might be a better powerset, but what you might consider a metric is debatable too. We could compare the number of enemies that I could defeat per minute with powerset X. That might be an important metric to a farmer, but is it important to someone who is only playing the game to relax?
So, the "Apples to Oranges" argument comes up again. Sure, you can compare any metric you want between them, but those metrics are based on subjective opinions on what people feel are important. Which makes the OPs opinion important( which is that /TA feels like it underperforms), but comparing /TA to another powerset realy does not make for an compeling argument.
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Comparing TA to another powerset can make for a very compelling arguement. The element of subjectivity can be allowed for; the notion that the indistillable element of subjectivity iirreparably poisons any debate and discussion is bogus, or else there'd be very few topics to debate or discuss. Goodbye internet forums. Goodbye 60 Minutes. Goodbye newspaper editorials.
The OP did not simply state what he "feels" without any attempt to support his position through an analytical process. He suggested that TA's role is to debuff, so it should be as good at it as any other debuffing powerset. He provided a valid basis for a comparative argument. Others can and have attempted to counter it, which is the rational thing to do. Suggesting that you can't debate things that are different and so the whole discussion ought to be dismissed is not.
If you prefer ground travel over air travel because it's safer, you have set a parameter for your objective to get to your destination. It's value as a parameter could be called subjective I suppose, but most people probably can agree that survival has compelling merit. Likewise, I could make arguments for air safety, or bring up another element like time efficiency. Our different perspectives don't preclude us from achieving a consensus. And if we don't achieve a consensus, that doesn't render the entire discussion worthless.
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is.
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The basic point is that the OP is making a statement that follows the following pattern:
"I feel that X should be better/equal/worse than Y"
The key word is "feel". It is impossible to put a number to a feeling. It's a subjective experience. It is possible to compare our experiences into what might be a better powerset, but what you might consider a metric is debatable too. We could compare the number of enemies that I could defeat per minute with powerset X. That might be an important metric to a farmer, but is it important to someone who is only playing the game to relax?
So, the "Apples to Oranges" argument comes up again. Sure, you can compare any metric you want between them, but those metrics are based on subjective opinions on what people feel are important. Which makes the OPs opinion important( which is that /TA feels like it underperforms), but comparing /TA to another powerset realy does not make for an compeling argument.
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Comparing TA to another powerset can make for a very compelling arguement.
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Interesting maybe, compelling, no.
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The element of subjectivity can be allowed for; the notion the indistillable element of subjectivity completely short-circuits debate and discussion is bogus, or else there'd be very few topics to debate or discuss. Goodbye internet forums. Goodbye 60 Minutes. Goodbye newspaper editorials.
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Hyperbole.
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The OP did not simply state what he "feels" without any attempt to support his position through an analytical process. He suggested that TA's role is to debuff, so it should be as good at it as any other debuffing powerset. He provided a valid basis for a comparative argument. Others can and have attempted to counter it, which is the rational thing to do. Suggesting that you can't debate things that are different and so the whole discussion ought to be dismissed is not.
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I never dismissed the argument or the need to argue. I merely pointed out that OPs statement was not very compelling because of his use of an ineffectual comparison. The fact that other people countered the OPs arguement only means that those people have a different expectations for how a powerset should perform.
And then there is the irony about the two of us having an argument over the what constitutes a valid form of comparison for an argument. "Apples and Oranges" indeed!
Grizz
"When Chuck Norris can't go on, Petra Majdič perseveres!"
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is. The "comparing apples to oranges" metaphor has always been fallacious and obtuse. The implication is that you can only compare things that are the same; even though apples and oranges are both fruits, both have seeds, both have skins, I still don't have a basis for a valid comparison. By that logic, I can't even compare one apple to another apple unless they're identical, because differences invalidate comparisons.
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How about I phrase this a little differently then. The OP's post to me read's like this.
"Dark debuffs to-hit by a large marine. TA doesn't, and it's suppose to be a debuff only set. So I'll make assumptions about Trick Arrow's animation speeds, cast times, and disregard everything the set does except it's to-hit debuff because I don't think they make as much of a difference. I'm right, I know I'm right, so all you tell me by how much I'm right."
That is what the OP came across to me as. So, comparing apples to oranges isn't a good metaphor for you? How about this one: He's comparing a bicycle. to an automobile. Both will get you to your destination. Both can do so very well, assuming you know what your doing. Both will handle far differently. Is it fair to compare a bike's capabilities to a automobile? No.
Sure the car will shelter you from the elements and travel faster, but the bike can go more places and cover more varied terrain. This allows the bike more options, and potentially speeds up transit too. If I'm riding a bike I may be able to head up onto the sidewalk and ignore a stoplight the car had to stop for. I'm also not polluting the environment. Both are equally valid choices for transport.
Taking this new analogy, TA would be the bike. Sometimes it's slower, but it can handle a much wider range of situations due to having the tools to handle any given situation. When you have a full toolbox, you see every problem with a different solution.
Dark Miasma though, it's really got to-hit debuffs and more to-hit debuffs. Even the majority of it's soft control is mainly for to-hit debuffing. When all you have is a hammer (to-hit debuffing) you see every problem as a nail.
Don't get me wrong, I love dark miasma. I just also realize it's not a tool for every situation. Even radiation control has things it doesn't do as well as trick arrow. Like what you ask? Like keeping the majority of debuffs active on your average PUG.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I guess you have a point here somewhere, but darned if I know what it is.
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Maybe because you addressed my impressions of someone else's opinion and ignored the intent of my post which was stated in the last paragraph? I dunno, could be. Either way, I'm secure enough in the size of my e-peen to not need to debate the matter of your opinion of my impression of someone else's opinion.
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Comparing TA to another powerset can make for a very compelling arguement.
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Comparing TA to other powersets doesn't make interesting debates, it makes threads get locked. Every "TA versus *" thread starts the same way, with some idiot yammering broad generalizations, ignorant conclusions and outright lies, then a demand for a "heal arrow", followed by a few days of me and the other well-informed TA players correcting the ridiculous disinformation, which eventually leads to pointless bickering and meandering side topics about fruit and/or cars, and finally a big, fat lock.
Then we get blessed peace for a few weeks, until the next clueless underwear stain picks up a bow, plays for fifteen minutes and comes to the forum to scream about how TA "is supposed to be better than X" and starts the cycle all over again.
Lord Nemesis could design an automaton with the schematics for these "debates". Steam, clockwork-like precision, it's all there.
*yawn*
I'll start off by saying this, if /TA is supposed to be better at debuffing than /Dark the devs have failed miserably, and considering /ta doesn't do anything but debuff I'm assuming it is. Me and a buddy rolled mm's figuring we'd make a great duo, I of course took /ta thinking it'd be tons of fun. The worst part is, it is very fun, I always have something to do and it's not the usual boring mm feel I had usually gotten whenever playing one. We even got to lvl 32, I love my mercs even though they're damage is pretty "lol" compared to thugs as far as I've seen. Then I got to thinking how our secondaries compared...well needless to say /dark overtakes /ta by a landslide. Here's my evidence.
<ul type="square"> Tar patch does -30% res while acid arrow does -15% res and -15% defense. Along with disruption arrow that does another -15% res I'll get the equal amount of -res that tar patch has gotten in less time and with less risk simply because of the slow. Not to mention that acid arrow needs to be fired off repeatedly just to keep that -res up. It's slightly equal simply because acid arrow being capable of recharging faster than the -res wears off, causing stacking. BUT disruption arrow wears off before it recharges usually keeping me at -15% res. Sure you can say the -15% def is the balance but what's that going to do when you're enemies are already running at you. Even if you do go glue arrow-acid arrow-disruption arrow you still have wasted drastic amounts of time compared to dark with it's ONE power. That's three powers from /ta just to try and compete with one from dark.
Next comes the -tohit. Flash arrow does -3.75% tohit, it's recharge is relatively low, but the debuff itself is almost usless. Even with the -90% perc, simply because perc isn't what i'm worried about when I'm attacking and the enemy can obviously see me. Compare this to darkest night and it's no contest. DN has -11.3% tohit AND -22.5% dmg debuff, so now not only does DN outshine flash arrow by a drastic amounts, it outshines acid arrow with it's -15% dmg debuff. Once again two of my powers don't even equal one toggle power which may take more end, but when you're an MM end isn't really an issue.
All of this doesn't even take into account Fearsome Stare which is another -11.3% tohit taking it to a total -22.6% tohit whenever FS is up, and the enemy in question is feared. Oh yeah lets not forget the good old dark servant as well, which basically doubles all these numbers once again.
Healing is another thing lacking majorly in /ta, which is obvious and I can accept that. But when twilight grasp does -3.75% tohit, -7.5% dmg debuff, AND -50% regen rate. It's kind of just adding insult to injury.
The total numbers of all the debuffs if you got them stacked in dark WITHOUT the dark servant are: -26.35% tohit, -30% dmg, -30% res. Compared to /ta which is as follows: -3.75% tohit, -30% res, -45% def, -15% dmg. Now yes the -def looks good but it doesn't help as much as -tohit would considering /ta has no heals. Not to mention the fact you're still taking more dmg than the /dark on top of it all.[/list]
You're probably wondering why I didn't take into account oil slick arrow as much, well it's simply because the recharge is 2min. That's up maybe every second group. Emp arrow is practically useless unless you stumble across an AV but even then you risk losing ALL of your other debuffs simply because lack of end.
What I'd really truly love is some risk for reward type attitude for /ta. It simply doesn't compete in real situations compared to dark. Not only am I in the mix of everything and constantly shooting, I have to try and heal each of my pets with aid other? I bet anyone in there right mind would trade flash arrow of uselessness for a heal arrow or something. Now I'm not saying nerf /dark cause that's just stupid and is the easy/obvious way out of the situation. Instead I'm asking to reconsider /ta as a set to buff, or just simply change. If it doesn't get any sort of attention well literally all /ta's should just re-roll as a /dark, not only do you get to heal all of your pets, you get another pet that will help you heal/debuff.
What might work is taking away some of the -def for some more -res or more -dmg, and get rid of the pointless -tohit for something that might actually help. Emp arrow needs to re-considered simply because without endurance I'm not doing anything else, so why not cut the -regen/-recovery in half and take away the horrible crash. That way it'd be useful without commiting suicide. If you're going to get rid of an arrow make sure it's flash and not ice, ice can actually help offer some tiny amounts of control, flash does literally nothing when it comes down to it. The worst part is flash is impossible to skip unless you enjoy taking primary attacks which just suck down endurance like GM does money. Somebody please look at this problem, it wouldn't take miracles, just some tweaking. Although it may require breaking the cottage rule.
I'll appreciate all and any input, and realize there are ALOT of /darks out there, so just remember I don't want to nerf /dark at all. In fact I think it's a great set, I just think something that's supposed to focus on debuffs should debuff better...