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How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
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I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
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Poison is a single-target set. So, you make one guy less special, the rest of us come at you and rip apart your minions faster than you can spam Alkaloid.
TA may have issues, but Poison is poop.
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Except you're a MM... so the boss is less special and all the minions and LTs are dead before they take 2 steps.
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How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
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I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
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Poison is a single-target set. So, you make one guy less special, the rest of us come at you and rip apart your minions faster than you can spam Alkaloid.
TA may have issues, but Poison is poop.
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Except you're a MM... so the boss is less special and all the minions and LTs are dead before they take 2 steps.
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I'm just going to step in here and steamroll all of you with my bot/ff that you can't hit to give -special.
BOTFFFTW
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Comparing TA to another powerset can make for a very compelling arguement.
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Comparing TA to other powersets doesn't make interesting debates, it makes threads get locked. Every "TA versus *" thread starts the same way, with some idiot yammering broad generalizations, ignorant conclusions and outright lies, then a demand for a "heal arrow", followed by a few days of me and the other well-informed TA players correcting the ridiculous disinformation, which eventually leads to pointless bickering and meandering side topics about fruit and/or cars, and finally a big, fat lock.
Then we get blessed peace for a few weeks, until the next clueless underwear stain picks up a bow, plays for fifteen minutes and comes to the forum to scream about how TA "is supposed to be better than X" and starts the cycle all over again.
Lord Nemesis could design an automaton with the schematics for these "debates". Steam, clockwork-like precision, it's all there.
*yawn*
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My Weaken does better -TOHIT than your Flash Arrow. My weaken also does -22.5% (mids) damage debuff. It even states that it makes opponents less special -74.5% -Special to be exact. 
Discuss.
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Your weaken is also single target. Discuss.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I think you're missing the point of DM. While it's true 6% is a small to-hit debuff, being able to stack it like crazy, to me, is what makes the set so potent. I know that my MM has enough to-hit debuffs to be hit maybe once or twice during an AV fight.
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I think your missing the point. That 6% during AV fights would be while stacking like crazy. It's using everything you got. Adding the /dm pet might bring it to 12% debuffing. Still not going to be THAT great of midigation. Better then nothing, but still not "you can't hit me" levels unless your also stacking decent levels of defense.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I think you're missing the point of DM. While it's true 6% is a small to-hit debuff, being able to stack it like crazy, to me, is what makes the set so potent. I know that my MM has enough to-hit debuffs to be hit maybe once or twice during an AV fight.
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I think your missing the point. That 6% during AV fights would be while stacking like crazy. It's using everything you got. Adding the /dm pet might bring it to 12% debuffing. Still not going to be THAT great of midigation. Better then nothing, but still not "you can't hit me" levels unless your also stacking decent levels of defense.
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I guess the question to ask here is TA really bringing all that much to the AV fight to justify the difference in a NON AV fight? Yes, the -to hit in /TA is unresistable but dark can stack nearly as much (if not as much) even after resistance. It has as much -res as /TA does and it has -regen in twilight grasp, +def and +resistance in shadow fall AND a heal - all of which will add to an AV fight. TA brings its -to hit which CAN probably be stacked to be more effective than dark, it has good -resistance and it might be able to stack its immobilize to reasonable effect (at least when the purple triangles are not up). All in all I would suspect that the two sets are about even vs AV's
Against non-AV's you get ALL the to hit debuff, a huge fear that is up every fight, a great single target hold that is just as easy to stack as ice arrow (if not easier - its on a slightly faster recharge base) and a heal - which, despite its low AoE is a pretty darn good heal.
Against all of that it seems hard to point to a small, unresistable to hit debuff and say that makes the set better. Yes yes, I know you can't single out one power for comparison - but more often then not it seems like folks arguing that /TA is fine do exactly that.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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I think you're missing the point of DM. While it's true 6% is a small to-hit debuff, being able to stack it like crazy, to me, is what makes the set so potent. I know that my MM has enough to-hit debuffs to be hit maybe once or twice during an AV fight.
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I think your missing the point. That 6% during AV fights would be while stacking like crazy. It's using everything you got. Adding the /dm pet might bring it to 12% debuffing. Still not going to be THAT great of midigation. Better then nothing, but still not "you can't hit me" levels unless your also stacking decent levels of defense.
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I guess the question to ask here is TA really bringing all that much to the AV fight to justify the difference in a NON AV fight? Yes, the -to hit in /TA is unresistable but dark can stack nearly as much (if not as much) even after resistance. It has as much -res as /TA does and it has -regen in twilight grasp, +def and +resistance in shadow fall AND a heal - all of which will add to an AV fight. TA brings its -to hit which CAN probably be stacked to be more effective than dark, it has good -resistance and it might be able to stack its immobilize to reasonable effect (at least when the purple triangles are not up). All in all I would suspect that the two sets are about even vs AV's
Against non-AV's you get ALL the to hit debuff, a huge fear that is up every fight, a great single target hold that is just as easy to stack as ice arrow (if not easier - its on a slightly faster recharge base) and a heal - which, despite its low AoE is a pretty darn good heal.
Against all of that it seems hard to point to a small, unresistable to hit debuff and say that makes the set better. Yes yes, I know you can't single out one power for comparison - but more often then not it seems like folks arguing that /TA is fine do exactly that.
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Ok, let me ask you a few questions.
1. A melee enemy is charging towards you. If they are moving slowly and their few ranged attacks are charging slower is that enemy a threat?
2. The party sees three large groups of enemies close together. If the brute attempts to herd them he'll most likely get all three groups and probably cause a party wipe. Is it better to try herding, or fight each group where they are while using flash arrow to prevent the other groups from noticing?
3. The party is getting in over their heads. Is it better to reduce the party's chance to get hit by the 30+ enemies, or boost the party's ability to take down the 30+ enemies quickly while reducing the rate of incoming damage?
4. In an AV fight is it better to debuff an AV's to-hit by 12% or stack 6% to-hit debuffs with -recharge and immobilizes?
And this last one is from my personal experience
5. In a chaotic PUG that keeps getting in trouble due to killing anchors first is it better to do high to-hit debuffing that uses an anchor for a good portion of the debuffing, or fire and forget debuffs which can't be negated by one foe being defeated?
6. In the same vein, is it better to have a debuff that can miss or one that always hits?
Both dark miasma and trick arrow approach the situation differently. Both are equally effective though. One focuses on enduring longer fights via safety, the other focuses on ending the fight quickly while reducing incoming damage for that short battle. Both have the same goal, and once they have their toolbox filled both are equally good at it.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Ok, let me ask you a few questions.
1. A melee enemy is charging towards you. If they are moving slowly and their few ranged attacks are charging slower is that enemy a threat?
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Sure - especially if half of them are outside the slow because the enemy I targetted it on happens to be the one who hung back while the others ran, which is what happens to me all the time on the few low level TA MM's and defenders I have tried to play, where my dark pretty much drop tar patch so most of it is between the mobs and my group and they are all caught in it - those that arent' cowering from the huge cone fear. You are also putting way to much faith in a 20% recharge debuff - that ISN"T going to stop much and recharge debuffs NEVER to anything about the alpha. With melee pets the movement slow isn't going to matter anyways (as your pets have to close) and there the -to hit from dark is going to give you more defense.
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2. The party sees three large groups of enemies close together. If the brute attempts to herd them he'll most likely get all three groups and probably cause a party wipe. Is it better to try herding, or fight each group where they are while using flash arrow to prevent the other groups from noticing?
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I almost never group so rarely see this but my answer would be that shadow fall will keep the far off enemies from noticing you and with the ability to stealth past a couple of groups, drop darkest night on a far group so you can pull 1-2 groups into a carefully placed tar patch, lock them down with fearsome stare then proceed to drop AE hell on them dark will handle this just as well, if not better than TA.
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3. The party is getting in over their heads. Is it better to reduce the party's chance to get hit by the 30+ enemies, or boost the party's ability to take down the 30+ enemies quickly while reducing the rate of incoming damage?
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I don't get what you are thinking you can do here in TA that you can't do in dark. Dark can drop tar patch and get just a smuch -resistance as TA (yes, I know thats an odd quirk of the psuedo pet mechanics, but it is true), fearsome stare is, again, a HUGE debuff and lock down that blunts alpha's at least as well as flash arrow and having a heal is really nice - nice enought that in a set that DOESN'T have one I want a lot more debuff.
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4. In an AV fight is it better to debuff an AV's to-hit by 12% or stack 6% to-hit debuffs with -recharge and immobilizes?
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Look - I already gave you an answer to this question in my previous post - the way I see it both sets bring just about as much to an AV fight PLUS I don't consider slightly improved performance in 5% of the game to justify what I see as reduced perfromance in the rest of the game.
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5. In a chaotic PUG that keeps getting in trouble due to killing anchors first is it better to do high to-hit debuffing that uses an anchor for a good portion of the debuffing, or fire and forget debuffs which can't be negated by one foe being defeated?
6. In the same vein, is it better to have a debuff that can miss or one that always hits?
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Considering that you can get over 30% total to hit debuff between DN and FS, having a target or two not getting part of that because FS missed or they are out of the DN area is pretty minor compared to the low value of flash arrow against anything but AV's. Now, point 6 almost is a winner with me as I think the RNG in this game conspires against me - but again, 5.25% vs a minimum of 15%, maximum of 30% seems a no brainer to me.
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Both dark miasma and trick arrow approach the situation differently. Both are equally effective though. One focuses on enduring longer fights via safety, the other focuses on ending the fight quickly while reducing incoming damage for that short battle. Both have the same goal, and once they have their toolbox filled both are equally good at it.
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As I have said before - i don't think trick arrow is all that bad it just doesn't seem exciting enough as an MM set to justify it over the other secondaries, at least not without an awesome character concept/outfit/name, which I haven't come up with yet. I will play anything with a cool concept. The only reason I am still posting counter arguements is that I think you are exaggerating the value of an unresistable to hit debuff.
I play /TA extensively on my controllers - I have 3 currently (plant/ta, illusion/ta and mind/ta) all of which are a blast. In my opinion TA is one of the best sets for a controller to play as its extra control fills in the niches in many control light sets (like illusion) and it provides a little more offensive capability without the cost that some of the other sets require (e.g. /rad is an awesome debuffing set but the best toggles take forever to put up and in some cases are way overkill). But when the numbers got translated down to MM's I think they got butchered a bit to much.
I can't say anything about TA on defenders as I can't stand playing defenders (personal issue with solo speed - I mostly solo, almost never group and my worst scrapper, stalker, brute or mastermind solo's a lot faster than the best defender I have ever tried) but I looking at the defender numbers I will accept that it is a good set for them.
At this point in time I would pretty much ask for a couple, small changes:
1) If you can't see making glue arrow a location AoE, increase its range to 80 like all the other powers in the set - this will give me more leeway for placing it where I want it to go.
2) Give the set some normal to hit somewhere - maybe 10% in poison gas arrow? This would be the defender value which would be what, 5.65 or something like that on MM's. This would make PGA a lot more pleasant to take and give the set some more defensive ability without overpowering it.
You may feel differently and I suspect I will never convince the dev's of this as it takes SERIOUS under performance to get them to make changes where this is more a case of not quite good enough.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Personally I usually value the -dam in Dark more highly than the -tohit, for AV fights - outside of a few high resist AVs it's usually more effective, and also more consistent/reliable mitigation.
For what it's worth, on the -tohit front I tried a quick couple fights against an even con Manticore and Back Alley Brawler with my 50 Necro/Dark [edit for clarity: not both at once]. I didn't summon Lich and I didn't upgrade the other henchmen (so the only -tohit they had was if the Knights decided to Dark Blast). I had Shadowfall running for an enhanced 5.5% defense. With just Shadowfall they were getting 80-90% tohit. With Shadowfall plus my debuffs (Darkest Night + stacking Twilight Grasp + non-stacking Fearsome Stare) they were down to about 50-65%. When I dropped Dark Servant next to them and gave him a few seconds to do his thing, that dropped to 40-55% (values fluctuated partially due to TG&FS missing, but mostly due to whether Fluffy got knocked out of PBAoE range by Explosive Arrow - he still contributes, but not as much).
I had another go with a 51 Manticore and you could basically add 10% to those tohit rolls - he bottomed out at ~51% tohit, and once Fluffy was out of range was usually at 60-65%. Which is roughly consistent with the purple patch modifier.
Which isn't bad. Obviously it falls off a bit against higher cons, but I think you're looking at +4s before it's down to the 5-10% numbers used in the comparisons with Flash Arrow (unless I'm missing something obvious, which is entirely possible).
For reference, the stacked -dam had Manticore at about 10% of his normal damage - it was like fighting a high-hp minion. After the initial set up at the very start of the fight I don't think he was capable of killing even a Zombie, much less me. BABs was far less of a success story, and I think the lowest I got him was about 55% of his normal damage (it was hard to get a read on him as he was constantly stunning me and knocking, stunning or outright killing Fluffy).
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Sure - especially if half of them are outside the slow because the enemy I targetted it on happens to be the one who hung back while the others ran, which is what happens to me all the time on the few low level TA MM's and defenders I have tried to play,
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here is what I do, and it works wonders. I lead off with PGA, usually putting a large number of them asleep while blunting the rest of the alpha strike. I then immediately launch a glue arrow. At this point their all still tightly grouped.
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I almost never group so rarely see this but my answer would be that shadow fall will keep the far off enemies from noticing you and with the ability to stealth past a couple of groups, drop darkest night on a far group so you can pull 1-2 groups into a carefully placed tar patch, lock them down with fearsome stare then proceed to drop AE hell on them dark will handle this just as well, if not better than TA.
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When I've seen groups try that, it tends to fail. In rooms such as what I described Shadow Fall isn't going to prevent the first group from noticing you as you stealth around to the rear groups. And trying to pull the rear ones tends to attract the guys you stealthed past anyway. I also slotted my flash arrow for range. I first debuff the front group's perception, then as I approach them hit the other two groups with flash arrow.
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I don't get what you are thinking you can do here in TA that you can't do in dark. Dark can drop tar patch and get just a smuch -resistance as TA (yes, I know thats an odd quirk of the psuedo pet mechanics, but it is true), fearsome stare is, again, a HUGE debuff and lock down that blunts alpha's at least as well as flash arrow and having a heal is really nice - nice enought that in a set that DOESN'T have one I want a lot more debuff.
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You forget about oil slick. While melee pet sets don't get as much use out of it, a burning oil slick will add a huge amount of damage. As such you've just raised the party damage twice. This ends the fight quicker. Dark's tools will speed the fight up a some, but mostly are for negating the enemy's ability to hit. Two different ways of doing the same thing.
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Considering that you can get over 30% total to hit debuff between DN and FS, having a target or two not getting part of that because FS missed or they are out of the DN area is pretty minor compared to the low value of flash arrow against anything but AV's. Now, point 6 almost is a winner with me as I think the RNG in this game conspires against me - but again, 5.25% vs a minimum of 15%, maximum of 30% seems a no brainer to me.
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From my experience, in chaotic (and bad) PUGs it's not that a few mobs aren't debuffed by darkest night. It's that NONE are affected by it because someone killed the anchor first and keeps targeting the anchor first. I personally find DN more useful solo then grouped since solo the anchor isn't killed first every time.
And finally, for defenders FA might be 10% debuff... when slotted up. Even for defenders the to-hit debuff in FA is underwhelming.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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And finally, for defenders FA might be 10% debuff... when slotted up. Even for defenders the to-hit debuff in FA is underwhelming.
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I gave you the MM numbers for fearsome stare (I assume that's what you meant and FA was a type for FS) and compared both slotted flash arrow to slotted DN/FS. The MM number are 10% base to hit debuff for each, 15% slotted up for a total of 30%. The defender number are 18.75% for each and get insane when slotted up.
Most people forget that fearsome stare has as much a to hit debuff as darkest night and is just as usefull as a debuff because it is such a good fear.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
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How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
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I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
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Poison is a single-target set. So, you make one guy less special, the rest of us come at you and rip apart your minions faster than you can spam Alkaloid.
TA may have issues, but Poison is poop.
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Except you're a MM... so the boss is less special and all the minions and LTs are dead before they take 2 steps.
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I'm just going to step in here and steamroll all of you with my bot/ff that you can't hit to give -special.
BOTFFFTW
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Except my Thugs/Pain MM can steamroll YOU.
Defense is nothing with that bad boy.
Archvillains (not elite boss downgraded AV's) have 75% resistance to to-hit debuffs. They've had this for a while now. After looking at the enhanced values of my Dark defender I see this as my max to-hit debuff vs against an actual AV. I am assuming double stacked twilight gasp since I spam it on AV's for the -regen.
Normal max debuff: 60.5
Normal sustainable debuff: 41.75 (can't keep Fearsome Stare up constantly)
Max debuff on AV: 15.125
Sustainable debuff on AV: 10.4375
This is without dark servant mind you. Haven't had a chance to toy with that one yet, but I will. Too many other characters distract me from my dark defender.
By comparison, my TA defender looks to be capping out at 10% or so to-hit debuff.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Normal max debuff: 60.5
Normal sustainable debuff: 41.75 (can't keep Fearsome Stare up constantly)
Max debuff on AV: 15.125
Sustainable debuff on AV: 10.4375
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If I did the maths right, my Necro/Dark has an enhanced max debuff of 9.125 against AVs with Twilight Grasp double stacked but no Dark Servant and not counting Shadowfall.
My (very rough) testing in-game says my sustainable debuff is at or close to that maximum - I don't quite have Fearsome Stare perma yet (20 sec duration on the debuff, 27 sec recharge, when I'm done it should be about 21 sec) but I think I can almost triple stack Twilight Grasp (20 sec duration, 7.8 seconds activation+recharge) so yeah, that sounds about right all things considered.
But as I said earlier in the thread, Dark Servant shouldn't be discounted as he contributes a significant amount of tohit debuff; even at range he'll output -tohit in quantities similar to the character that summoned him (enhanced, mine has 7.5 for TG, 7.5 for TT, 22.5 for DN, for a total of 37.5*0.25 = 9.375 debuff while he's alive and within 40ft). Get him into melee and Chill of Night gives another 45*.25 = 11.25 debuff.
So adding him to the player's contribution and you're looking at 30% total debuff if you keep him in melee, and 20% if he ends up at range (rarely dies if he's allowed to sit at range, varies with AV and team composition if you keep him in melee - Manti sure couldn't scratch him, but BAB smacked him down pretty quickly).
So yeah, what I'm trying to say is don't discount Dark Servant from -tohit comparisons, because his -tohit contribution is often more than the rest of the set combined.
Standard disclaimer that I may have got all that wrong applies though - I rarely delve into the mechanics/maths of it all and approaching midnight probably isn't the best time to start. And as I say, it's the -damage I value the most, the -tohit is just gravy to me (for AV fights, anyway).
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Normal max debuff: 60.5
Normal sustainable debuff: 41.75 (can't keep Fearsome Stare up constantly)
Max debuff on AV: 15.125
Sustainable debuff on AV: 10.4375
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If I did the maths right, my Necro/Dark has an enhanced max debuff of 9.125 against AVs with Twilight Grasp double stacked but no Dark Servant and not counting Shadowfall.
My (very rough) testing in-game says my sustainable debuff is at or close to that maximum - I don't quite have Fearsome Stare perma yet (20 sec duration on the debuff, 27 sec recharge, when I'm done it should be about 21 sec) but I think I can almost triple stack Twilight Grasp (20 sec duration, 7.8 seconds activation+recharge) so yeah, that sounds about right all things considered.
But as I said earlier in the thread, Dark Servant shouldn't be discounted as he contributes a significant amount of tohit debuff; even at range he'll output -tohit in quantities similar to the character that summoned him (enhanced, mine has 7.5 for TG, 7.5 for TT, 22.5 for DN, for a total of 37.5*0.25 = 9.375 debuff while he's alive and within 40ft). Get him into melee and Chill of Night gives another 45*.25 = 11.25 debuff.
So adding him to the player's contribution and you're looking at 30% total debuff if you keep him in melee, and 20% if he ends up at range (rarely dies if he's allowed to sit at range, varies with AV and team composition if you keep him in melee - Manti sure couldn't scratch him, but BAB smacked him down pretty quickly).
So yeah, what I'm trying to say is don't discount Dark Servant from -tohit comparisons, because his -tohit contribution is often more than the rest of the set combined.
Standard disclaimer that I may have got all that wrong applies though - I rarely delve into the mechanics/maths of it all and approaching midnight probably isn't the best time to start. And as I say, it's the -damage I value the most, the -tohit is just gravy to me (for AV fights, anyway).
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Heh, you didn't see where I commented on MY build and personal lack of having the dark servant to try out. I did comment though that it could possibly duplicate my total debuffing. And this is defenders, not masterminds since I don't have a /dark mastermind high enough to have all the debuffs.
I deleted it due to frustration. My pets were always running out of healing range mid heal animation, thus not getting healed. Things also were hitting though darkest night far too often. This meant I had to heal frequently, and the pets weren't getting healed due to running away. I got maybe to 12 before giving up on the char in disgust.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Archvillains (not elite boss downgraded AV's) have 75% resistance to to-hit debuffs.
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The AV resistance to debuffs scales by level. It's 75% when the AV is level 30-31. By level 50 it's 85%.
So at level 50( using the numbers you provided):
Max debuff on AV: 9.075
Sustainable debuff on AV: 6.2625
That's pretty bleak, especially when you consider what /Dark can do( -ToHit wise ) to any other non-AV/GM critter.
Grizz
Useful Link:
Paragon Wiki article on AVs
"When Chuck Norris can't go on, Petra Majdič perseveres!"
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Heh, you didn't see where I commented on MY build and personal lack of having the dark servant to try out. I did comment though that it could possibly duplicate my total debuffing. And this is defenders, not masterminds since I don't have a /dark mastermind high enough to have all the debuffs.
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I did see you mention it, but I also saw enough comparisons with Flash Arrow's unresistable -tohit throughout the thread implying or outright stating that the two sets had basically the same -tohit vs AVs that it seemed necessary to emphasise the difference once you do factor Fluffy in. Although the difference isn't quite as extreme, it felt like watching a comparison with Kin's +dam that kept excluding Fulcrum Shift.
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I deleted it due to frustration. My pets were always running out of healing range mid heal animation, thus not getting healed. Things also were hitting though darkest night far too often. This meant I had to heal frequently, and the pets weren't getting healed due to running away. I got maybe to 12 before giving up on the char in disgust.
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My own Necro/Dark pretty much steamrolled to 50. Yeah the zombies seem to do their best to avoid being healed, but I just treat them as one shot vomit cannons (corner pull onto tar patch and they're really pretty effective that way). Once Fearsome Stare opened up it was plain sailing from thereon out. Indeed, of my MMs it was probably the smoothest ride: only my Bots/FF felt safer once it got going (seemed as fragile as the rest to start with), but there wasn't a lot in it and the Necro/Dark was generally faster.
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did see you mention it, but I also saw enough comparisons with Flash Arrow's unresistable -tohit throughout the thread implying or outright stating that the two sets had basically the same -tohit vs AVs that it seemed necessary to emphasise the difference once you do factor Fluffy in. Although the difference isn't quite as extreme, it felt like watching a comparison with Kin's +dam that kept excluding Fulcrum Shift.
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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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did see you mention it, but I also saw enough comparisons with Flash Arrow's unresistable -tohit throughout the thread implying or outright stating that the two sets had basically the same -tohit vs AVs that it seemed necessary to emphasise the difference once you do factor Fluffy in. Although the difference isn't quite as extreme, it felt like watching a comparison with Kin's +dam that kept excluding Fulcrum Shift.
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If you don't include Dark Servant you might as well not include Tar Patch in your calculations. Hell, while we're at it we should also not include fearsome stare or twilight grasp. 
Look, if we are going to compare and contrast builds, you need to include everything.
I'm not a number cruncher. But I see the benefits one Secondary offers to a "team" over another.
Dark Miasma offers group control and debuffs in the means of Darkest Night, Tar Patch, fearsome stare, Dark Servant and Howling Twilight, All at relatively good recharge rates with the exception of Dark Servant and Howling Twilight; however Dark Servant is a persistant pet and simply slotting him with 2 recharge, you can have him out all the time plus he's a mobile control. TA also has decent debuffs and controls..however two of the main controls are on fairly long recharge (OIL and EMP).
Dark Miasma offers a few things that TA does not. It offers a group heal (Which helps a lot in team play, despite its range) Dark Miasma also offers +stealth +resistance to all teammates in the form of Shadow Fall. It also offers a Rez to a team which is also a decent AoE disorient (Howling Twilight) so you are really getting two powers for the price of one (You don't need a dead alley for this power to work either.)
I'm not going to compare and contrast the debuffs of TA and Dark Miasma, they both are decent AoE debuff and control sets. However, Dark Miasma offers much more to a team than TA does and as a player I am much more likely to invite someone who can add resistance, heal, debuff, controls and rezs, to my team than a MM with a secondary that can only control and debuff.
I don't believe the question should be "Which Secondary is better?" the question should be "Which Secondary offers the greatest benefits to a team?"
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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.
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It's pretty easy to perma for a mastermind, you're not gonna need to go for global recharge or hasten or anything. As to the dumb AI targeting, I was under the impression the -tohit comparison was dealing with the special case of AVs (since away from AV debuff resistance Dark blows TA's -tohit away, with or without Dark Servant). In an AV fight Fluffy will very quickly only have one choice of target, eliminating that issue. Though in normal play it's possible to adjust your tactics to compensate somewhat too - I'm very fond of the Darkest Night to Tar Patch corner pull which bunches everything up such that it doesn't matter too much who he targets (with his cone immobilise helping keep them that way).
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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.
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It's pretty easy to perma for a mastermind, you're not gonna need to go for global recharge or hasten or anything. As to the dumb AI targeting, I was under the impression the -tohit comparison was dealing with the special case of AVs (since away from AV debuff resistance Dark blows TA's -tohit away, with or without Dark Servant). In an AV fight Fluffy will very quickly only have one choice of target, eliminating that issue. Though in normal play it's possible to adjust your tactics to compensate somewhat too - I'm very fond of the Darkest Night to Tar Patch corner pull which bunches everything up such that it doesn't matter too much who he targets (with his cone immobilise helping keep them that way).
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You're right, lets compare the -tohit numbers between /dark and /TA on imperious. We'll even include dark servant to be nice.
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Till I can actually mess around with it, I can't honestly include Dark Servant in any calculations. Then there's the fact that it's not a persistent pet for masterminds. I also heard it has a tendency to pick one enemy that's out of the way and focus on it. If that's true, it can't be counted on.
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It's pretty easy to perma for a mastermind, you're not gonna need to go for global recharge or hasten or anything. As to the dumb AI targeting, I was under the impression the -tohit comparison was dealing with the special case of AVs (since away from AV debuff resistance Dark blows TA's -tohit away, with or without Dark Servant). In an AV fight Fluffy will very quickly only have one choice of target, eliminating that issue. Though in normal play it's possible to adjust your tactics to compensate somewhat too - I'm very fond of the Darkest Night to Tar Patch corner pull which bunches everything up such that it doesn't matter too much who he targets (with his cone immobilise helping keep them that way).
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You're right, lets compare the -tohit numbers between /dark and /TA on imperious. We'll even include dark servant to be nice.
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I must be missing something. Wouldn't those numbers be the same ones we've already gone over in this thread? If you can elaborate to the contrary for this particular example, go for it, I'm fine with learning new things.
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How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
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I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
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Poison is a single-target set. So, you make one guy less special, the rest of us come at you and rip apart your minions faster than you can spam Alkaloid.
TA may have issues, but Poison is poop.