[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent. A while back AV's got massive to-hit debuff resistance. I recall a couple rad defenders going "WTF" while fighting one with me when they kept getting hit fairly reliably despite two sets of rad debuffs on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, two Rad Defenders could maintain 14% ToHit Debuff and -50% Damage on an AV. The ToHit might not be as beneficial since it's resisted, but assuming the AV doesn't do one damage type along with having 90% Resistance to that damage type, the Rads would still be cutting out 50% of the AV's damage all the time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent. A while back AV's got massive to-hit debuff resistance. I recall a couple rad defenders going "WTF" while fighting one with me when they kept getting hit fairly reliably despite two sets of rad debuffs on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, two Rad Defenders could maintain 14% ToHit Debuff and -50% Damage on an AV. The ToHit might not be as beneficial since it's resisted, but assuming the AV doesn't do one damage type along with having 90% Resistance to that damage type, the Rads would still be cutting out 50% of the AV's damage all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
The AV musta been pretty resistant then cause it was still doing quite a bit of damage too.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent. A while back AV's got massive to-hit debuff resistance. I recall a couple rad defenders going "WTF" while fighting one with me when they kept getting hit fairly reliably despite two sets of rad debuffs on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, two Rad Defenders could maintain 14% ToHit Debuff and -50% Damage on an AV. The ToHit might not be as beneficial since it's resisted, but assuming the AV doesn't do one damage type along with having 90% Resistance to that damage type, the Rads would still be cutting out 50% of the AV's damage all the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
The AV musta been pretty resistant then cause it was still doing quite a bit of damage too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or the Defenders sucked. 
However half the damage is still anywhere from 250-1200 damage, depending on the AV, so it comes down to what the player or AT can take.
This thread has inspired me to make a Ninja/TA as my 5th MM. Seeing as how I generally don't PL my characters it may take a while to get him up high enough to form a real opinion. He's not a steamroller like my Bots/Traps or Necro/Dark, but so far he doesn't suck at all and is easier starting out than either my Thugs/Poison or Mercs/Storm.
I won't go into too much detail, since this has already pretty much degraded to a shouting match: "TA sucks when I compare it this way" "No, TA is great because of THESE factual numbers" "But TA's debuffs and controls aren't as good as the other sets debuffs and heals" "etc. etc."
I'm in the pro Trick Arrow camp. I have a lvl 50 Bot/TA mastermind, a lvl 47 TA/Psi defender, and a lvl 37 TA/Ice defender (or blastroller). I love it because those three are all completely different beasts. I love using Flash Arrow for the -perception, and use it all the time on my TA/Psi (superteam build). I love Ice Arrow, and always 6-slot it for acc/rech/hold. And on my TA/Ice, I had enough tricks up my sleeve, I even postponed Oil Slick for a several levels (notably because I absentmindedly picked Natural and couldn't light it myself outside of temp powers) but still had enough tricks up my sleeve to be good on my own. (even soloed Hercules EB with her).
Anyway, Trick Arrow is a good set at what it does. If you don't realize what it does, I'm sure you think other sets are better. And what does it do? It's awesome, that's what it does.
That's all, back to your regularly scheduled bicker session.
I have to wonder if one of the reasons that so many people get down on /TA masterminds is that everyone wants to go ninja/TA as thematically it seems like a good combo. The problem here is that ninja's are the squishiest melee pets the games offers and /TA doesn't offer a lot to reduce the damage taken by melee pets.
Its primary defenses are glue arrow, which only works if your pets don't close with their targets; poison gas arrow with a small damage debuff that probably won't do much to save a squishy genin and oil slick arrow - which gives pets all kinds of problems.
As much as I think some of the MM values are to low, I might have tried a /TA myself just to get a feel for things but I am certainly not going to try them with a melee pet set and I have worked all the ranged pets sets up a couple times each (except for bots - for some reason I just don't have the patience to play bots).
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
I have to wonder if one of the reasons that so many people get down on /TA masterminds is that everyone wants to go ninja/TA as thematically it seems like a good combo. The problem here is that ninja's are the squishiest melee pets the games offers and /TA doesn't offer a lot to reduce the damage taken by melee pets.
Its primary defenses are glue arrow, which only works if your pets don't close with their targets; poison gas arrow with a small damage debuff that probably won't do much to save a squishy genin and oil slick arrow - which gives pets all kinds of problems.
As much as I think some of the MM values are to low, I might have tried a /TA myself just to get a feel for things but I am certainly not going to try them with a melee pet set and I have worked all the ranged pets sets up a couple times each (except for bots - for some reason I just don't have the patience to play bots).
[/ QUOTE ]
I tried ninja/ta too. It might get powerful later on. But at low levels it did feel rather weak. Especially fighting snakes. Then my thug/ta was able to mow through snakes with ease. Sure I still had to resummon now and then, but it wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be.
A lot of the TA hate I think stems from back in issue 5 when it came pre nerfed. On test TA had been powerful. And there were entire teams of TA/A defenders and Arch/Devices blasters mowing through things. Devs saw this, and over reacted. They nuked TA to gimphood. ANd they admitted it was gimped. Glue for instance had 30 second duration and 2 minute recharge after the nerfage. It'd orignally been 30 second duration and I think 10 second recharge. You could self stack Glue to the point where things couldn't attack.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
You know, the only thing that bothers me about minions dying from time to time is the new upgrades. I actually liked it more the old way. Otherwise, I expect them to die at least some of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
/TA is the only set I have not really tried. Every time I think about it, it just discourages me when I look at the numbers. /TA's debuff values are not that good. I've seen quite a few Ninja/TA that makes me not want to try it. Their Genins just die left and right.
(Dark's best power IMO is Fearsome Stare!)
I had a lvl 21 Merc/TA but he is on Freedom and my main server is now Virtue.
[/ QUOTE ]
Genin die all the time anyway. Every time I team with a Ninja MM (/Dark, /Storm, /FF, whatever), you could repopulate the map with all the genin that died.
I used to know a Thugs/TA that would plow through everything and made me consider making a /TA.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The AV musta been pretty resistant then cause it was still doing quite a bit of damage too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or the Defenders sucked. However half the damage is still anywhere from 250-1200 damage, depending on the AV, so it comes down to what the player or AT can take.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, what she means is that damage resistance resists -damage, so if the AV had a lot of resistance, that half damage reduction might be only 25% for example.
Well considering I got an AV down to 21% ToHit on my Zombies/Dark.....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
With dark servant (and maybe a lich too) you might get 10% to-hit debuffing going on. You can't floor a AV's to-hit by yourself with to-hit debuffs anymore.
Oh, and how high of defense do you have? Defense too can help you tackle AV's.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
With dark servant (and maybe a lich too) you might get 10% to-hit debuffing going on. You can't floor a AV's to-hit by yourself with to-hit debuffs anymore.
Oh, and how high of defense do you have? Defense too can help you tackle AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only defense I had was with SF and CJ. Both unslotted for defense. And they still went with ease. The only AV that I'm trying to take down right now is Ghost Widow, but I kinda figured she'd be tough to beat having resistance to neg. energy thanks to SF.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
With dark servant (and maybe a lich too) you might get 10% to-hit debuffing going on. You can't floor a AV's to-hit by yourself with to-hit debuffs anymore.
Oh, and how high of defense do you have? Defense too can help you tackle AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only defense I had was with SF and CJ. Both unslotted for defense. And they still went with ease. The only AV that I'm trying to take down right now is Ghost Widow, but I kinda figured she'd be tough to beat having resistance to neg. energy thanks to SF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally found her to be extremely easy (as an elite boss). Note that if your not actually fighting them as an AV (not on the highest difficulty when solo) then they don't have extreme to-hit debuff resistance.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
With dark servant (and maybe a lich too) you might get 10% to-hit debuffing going on. You can't floor a AV's to-hit by yourself with to-hit debuffs anymore.
Oh, and how high of defense do you have? Defense too can help you tackle AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only defense I had was with SF and CJ. Both unslotted for defense. And they still went with ease. The only AV that I'm trying to take down right now is Ghost Widow, but I kinda figured she'd be tough to beat having resistance to neg. energy thanks to SF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally found her to be extremely easy (as an elite boss). Note that if your not actually fighting them as an AV (not on the highest difficulty when solo) then they don't have extreme to-hit debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fought her on invincible and failed, but I know I can do it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right...tell that to my Necro/Dark who's solo'ed several AVs with ease.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
With dark servant (and maybe a lich too) you might get 10% to-hit debuffing going on. You can't floor a AV's to-hit by yourself with to-hit debuffs anymore.
Oh, and how high of defense do you have? Defense too can help you tackle AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
The only defense I had was with SF and CJ. Both unslotted for defense. And they still went with ease. The only AV that I'm trying to take down right now is Ghost Widow, but I kinda figured she'd be tough to beat having resistance to neg. energy thanks to SF.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally found her to be extremely easy (as an elite boss). Note that if your not actually fighting them as an AV (not on the highest difficulty when solo) then they don't have extreme to-hit debuff resistance.
[/ QUOTE ]
I fought her on invincible and failed, but I know I can do it.
[/ QUOTE ]
On invincible she's a full Archvillain. Keep that in mind. While some builds can solo archvillains, it's usually something you have to twink out and specialize your build to do.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that ~6% is "barely effective" as a debuff value when /Dark does it against AVs, and you're saying that /TA does the same valuenot just against AVs, but everything in the game.
What was the point again?
And for a point of clarification, that spammable AOE heal/-regen also has -damage and a -tohit component, which may or may not have been counted in that initial 6%.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, try to wrap your mind around this. A few issues back the devs made it so AV's and GMs heavily resist to-hit debuffs. Thus dark miasma's entire set when well slotted ends up being barely effective at debuffing the AV's to-hit. Fortunately they also made it so AVs have 50% to-hit instead of 75, and a 1.5 acc modifier.
Because Flash Arrow's to-hit debuff is unresistable if 3 slotted for to-hit debuff it's roughly equal in effectiveness to pretty much the entire debuff arrey of Dark Miasma at debuffing an AV's to-hit. Without Dark Servant Dark Miasma gets an AV's to-hit down by just under 6%. So does Trick Arrow. The thing is, Dark also has a powerful aoe heal and -regen which can be spammed. So it's not so much to-hit debuffing but the other things that dark does which helps it take on AV's.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that ~6% is "barely effective" as a debuff value when /Dark does it against AVs, and you're saying that /TA does the same valuenot just against AVs, but everything in the game.
What was the point again?
And for a point of clarification, that spammable AOE heal/-regen also has -damage and a -tohit component, which may or may not have been counted in that initial 6%.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point is... That for the hardest content (AV's and GM's) the idea that dark miasma is innately stronger just because it's got high to-hit debuff values is not true. 6% to-hit debuff isn't very strong honestly. It's helpful if you already got defense to stack it with, but it's not going to make as big of a difference on it's own as people think.
That said, claiming dark miasma is better at AV/GM fights then TA because of it's to-hit debuffing is false. Both are equally valuable for different reasons. Even against normal missions both are equally valuable, again for different reasons. Both do the same thing, protect the team. And both do it in different but capable ways.
Edit to add
For general content flash arrow's to-hit debuff isn't something I factor in. I stack it with my thug's defense, but it's not what I use it for mainly. I use it for the -perception. THAT is the true reason to use flash arrow. Same reason people run stealth powers. Same reason people use smoke grenade.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Comparing TA to another powerset can make for a very compelling arguement.
[/ QUOTE ]
Comparing TA to other powersets doesn't make interesting debates, it makes threads get locked. Every "TA versus *" thread starts the same way, with some idiot yammering broad generalizations, ignorant conclusions and outright lies, then a demand for a "heal arrow", followed by a few days of me and the other well-informed TA players correcting the ridiculous disinformation, which eventually leads to pointless bickering and meandering side topics about fruit and/or cars, and finally a big, fat lock.
Then we get blessed peace for a few weeks, until the next clueless underwear stain picks up a bow, plays for fifteen minutes and comes to the forum to scream about how TA "is supposed to be better than X" and starts the cycle all over again.
Lord Nemesis could design an automaton with the schematics for these "debates". Steam, clockwork-like precision, it's all there.
*yawn*
[/ QUOTE ]
My Weaken does better -TOHIT than your Flash Arrow. My weaken also does -22.5% (mids) damage debuff. It even states that it makes opponents less special -74.5% -Special to be exact. 
Discuss.
How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
[ QUOTE ]
How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about not. This is a TA discussion, so take your Poison eslewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hit you with Weaken. You are now 74.5% less Special.
Poison foevah!
[/ QUOTE ]
Bookkeeper has special -special resist.
I think you're missing the point of DM. While it's true 6% is a small to-hit debuff, being able to stack it like crazy, to me, is what makes the set so potent. I know that my MM has enough to-hit debuffs to be hit maybe once or twice during an AV fight.
Oil slick can be lit by energy and fire damage. If your primary/secondary can't light it easily, are you tech or magic origin? If so use the power you got at level 1. The tazer and magic charm attacks may suck but they do light oil slick.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History