[ QUOTE ]
Flash Arrow - only usefull if you are fighting AV's. Folks love to trot this out as if this where a huge part of the game - it isn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
If all you see Flash Arrow as is a to-hit debuff, your missing out on the majority of it's utility. While the debuff does have a good nitch, it's real power comes from the ability to prevent 2 close spawns from agroing while you fight a 3rd one almost right next to them.
[ QUOTE ]
Poison gas arrow - totally skippable, a 15% damage debuff along with an unreliable sleep is almost useless without something to complement it.
[/ QUOTE ]
If all you had available was the damage debuff it would suck for damage mitigation, but wait! There's more! The sleep isn't 'unreliable' anymore. They fixed the problems with it. You fire PGA off first, and half the enemy group just got put to sleep, possibly more. Useless you say? And what about the alpha strike you just negated?
[ QUOTE ]
Two single target controls (ice+entangling arrow): These are nice powers but with the low duration and high end cost that MM's pay and the fact that they generally have nothing to stack with them, so they are useless on anything higher than an LT, makes them questionable for an MM.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wha?! They last more then long enough. My thug/ta has managed to chain hold bosses with just ice arrow. With just a single ACC in entangle I've already stacked it enough to immobilize a couple AV's What do you mean low duration makes them of questionable value?
As for stacking with other powers you get... Patron pools give a mastermind another imobilize (or two) and a hold that can stack with them well. Plus don't forget EMP Arrow, an aoe hold. Interestingly enough, I don't see too many control sets that have more holds then a single target and an aoe hold Maybe a sleep (unreliable due to to-hit check)... But you said having a sleep power which is auto hit and is always going to affect half the enemies at least is unreliable.
[ QUOTE ]
Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set, however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE, does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much) and frequently won't last through a fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Three recharge SO's and this recharges exactly as fast as it wears off. Look, no more complaint about it not lasting through a fight. Slot some slows in it too and the recharge debuff is stronger. Happy times. The same is true of PGA and most of the other debuffs too.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Poison gas arrow is a joke - either make it a reliable sleep power or give it more damage debuff. Defenders are the only ones who get a decent amount of damage debuff and even then I am not sure I would ever take this power as a defender.
2) Add some recharge reduction to entangling arrow - 10% isn't noticeable, even when stacked with glue arrows 20%. I think it would be better to increase it here rather than in glue arrow so that it doesn't get overpowering - this way to get a lot of -recharge you would have to put down glue arrow then entangle each mob individually.
3) Make glue arrow a location AE so you can set up glue 'traps' with it OR give it more range so you don't have to close to aggro distance to fire it off. This applies to ALL version of the set and is my pet peeve with the power.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll try adressing each of these in turn.
1.) Skipping PGA is not that good of a choice no matter what AT in my opinion. The damage debuff on it's own isn't enough, but when combined with -recharge and -speed it's potent. And the sleep will always go off half the time. I've seen it sleep 5 of 10 mobs six levels higher then me. Gave me enough of an advantage to get away. Sure the sleep didn't last long, but it did hit.
2.) Let's assume that AV fight where you can't hold or immobilize the enemy. What do you see TA bringing to the fight? I see three -recharge powers for one thing. You forgot about Ice Arrow. Even if it doesn't hold something, it still debuffs recharge. And they had to reduce TA's recharge debuffage. I can still (fondly) recall stacking enough -rech with just glue arrow to cause enemies to be completely unable to do anything.
3.) Again, this would be a bad change. Since it's a targeted aoe you can use it mid battle. Targeted locations, not so much in a running battle.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Flash Arrow - only usefull if you are fighting AV's. Folks love to trot this out as if this where a huge part of the game - it isn't.
[/ QUOTE ]
How many masterminds run Maneuvers? More than a few? A significant percentage of the players? Makes sense, doesn't it, to pick up a toggle that gives all of your henchmen some additional Defense.
How many masterminds spend inf or merits, or gamble with tickets, on those 5% +Def unique IOs? In my experience, reading this forum, playing my own masterminds and talking to other masterminds, essentially anyone who can get them does.
And Flash Arrow is stronger than Maneuvers, slot for slot, and can be slotted up to be as good as a 5% +Def unique (better, because it reduces hit chances from special damage types, like Toxic, Psi, Special, Unique, whereas the IOs don't), but it's only useful against AVs?
What, like every mastermind with Maneuvers or a 5% +Def unique only uses that when facing an AV? Seriously?
[ QUOTE ]
Poison gas arrow - totally skippable, a 15% damage debuff along with an unreliable sleep is almost useless without something to complement it.
[/ QUOTE ]
15% -Damage is 5% higher than the 10% unique +Res IOs, and it applies to damage types which the IOs don't resist, but getting 1.5x the value of that multi-million inf IO for free is "totally skippable"?
Someone should tell the thousands of masterminds snatching up those 10% +Res uniques that they're "totally skippable", so they stop wasting their inf/merits/tickets.
[ QUOTE ]
Two single target controls (ice+entangling arrow): These are nice powers but with the low duration and high end cost that MM's pay and the fact that they generally have nothing to stack with them,
[/ QUOTE ]
It sure would be nice if Entangling had a really low recharge time, relatively long duration and could stack the Immobilize. Or if there were another Immobilize available, like, say, in the PPPs...
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!
And it would be nifty if TA had another Hold, or there were Holds available in the PPPs...
WHOAHOLDDAFONE!
[ QUOTE ]
so they are useless on anything higher than an LT, makes them questionable for an MM.
[/ QUOTE ]
Both of those powers also apply -KB, -Jump, -RunSpeed and -Recharge. And Entangling drops Fliers instantly.
But, yeah, who needs something like a cheap, fast Immobilize when playing as a villain, when you're only facing AV/Hero level foes every other level or so. Or a way to take nasty Longbow lieutenants out of a fight while your henchmen focus on the boss/EB/AV.
WATEAMINIT!
[ QUOTE ]
Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set,
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it's the least defensive power in TA. All it does is keep enemies bunched up or away from you and apply a small Recharge debuff. Does diddly squat for the alpha, does less than diddly squat if your enemy has multiple ranged attacks.
[ QUOTE ]
however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE,
[/ QUOTE ]
Targeting one enemy is hard?
Really?
[ QUOTE ]
does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much)
[/ QUOTE ]
But that's the only defensive thing it does, so if the debuff is weak, how is it also the best?
[ QUOTE ]
and frequently won't last through a fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why does a fight take you longer than 60 seconds? You've got henchmen, Resistance debuffs, what could you possibly be doing to drag fights out for that long?
[ QUOTE ]
Once you get oil slick arrow the set does improve quite a bit as the knockdown is a nice defense, but you have to deal with the pet bug if it happens to ignite (or if you want to ignite it).
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could use the other debuffs and controls and not wait until level 35+... like everyone else does.
[ QUOTE ]
Please note - I have several /TA controller and I LOVE it as a controller set. The longer control times and slightly higher values for everything make it just good enough when your primary compliments it so well but for an MM I just can see it standing up to the utility of dark and traps or the healing and buffing of pain domination.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whereas I don't see any other secondary being as versatile and effective as TA, because they tend to be overspecialized in one area or another. I also see TA masterminds playing very much like defenders, focusing on supporting the strengths of the team, which is the henchmen in the case of masterminds, and shoring up the weaknesses, and after leveling one TA mastermind to 50 and another to 30, I see it doing those things extremely well.
Without the need for a crutch, like a spammable heal or 50,000% -ToHit.
[ QUOTE ]
1) Poison gas arrow is a joke
[/ QUOTE ]
No, but that was a funny one.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Add some recharge reduction to entangling arrow - 10% isn't noticeable, even when stacked with glue arrows 20%. I think it would be better to increase it here rather than in glue arrow so that it doesn't get overpowering - this way to get a lot of -recharge you would have to put down glue arrow then entangle each mob individually.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could... learn to use the other debuffs... instead of trying to leverage -Recharge as the end-all and be-all of debuffs...
[ QUOTE ]
3) Make glue arrow a location AE
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Glue was changed to a critter-targeted AoE before I5 went live, it's not going to be changed back.
[ QUOTE ]
so you can set up glue 'traps'
[/ QUOTE ]
Teleport Foe on one enemy, Glue enemy, wait for enemy's friends to come run into Glue.
OSA, Glue OSTarget.
[ QUOTE ]
give it more range
[/ QUOTE ]
Range enhancements are currently available in the game.
[ QUOTE ]
so you don't have to close to aggro distance to fire it off.
[/ QUOTE ]
60' is 15' outside of standard critter perception range.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll try adressing each of these in turn.
1.) Skipping PGA is not that good of a choice no matter what AT in my opinion. The damage debuff on it's own isn't enough, but when combined with -recharge and -speed it's potent. And the sleep will always go off half the time. I've seen it sleep 5 of 10 mobs six levels higher then me. Gave me enough of an advantage to get away. Sure the sleep didn't last long, but it did hit.
2.) Let's assume that AV fight where you can't hold or immobilize the enemy. What do you see TA bringing to the fight? I see three -recharge powers for one thing. You forgot about Ice Arrow. Even if it doesn't hold something, it still debuffs recharge. And they had to reduce TA's recharge debuffage. I can still (fondly) recall stacking enough -rech with just glue arrow to cause enemies to be completely unable to do anything.
3.) Again, this would be a bad change. Since it's a targeted aoe you can use it mid battle. Targeted locations, not so much in a running battle.
[/ QUOTE ]
1)I get that you think PGA is a great power - I don't, even combined with the -recharge and -speed in the other powers, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. As it stands I MIGHT take it on an MM - but only if you could convince me to play a /TA MM, which is unlikely as the set stands. I would never take it on my controllers and I don't play defenders because I can't stand them. Give me a decent amount of -damage, even as much as 20% although 25-30 would actually make it usefull in my mind, and I would consider it decent. 15% is nothing.
2)ok - I admit I missed the -recharge in ice arrow but its STILL only 10%. Having to stack 3 powers just to get 40% recharge debuff on a single target is kinda sucky. I don't understand your point about AV's - I am addressing general set use, not AV's. Any argument that includes the phrase "helps with AV's" is a null argument for me as AV fights are a VERY small part of the game. I am not asking for a lot - 20% or so in each of the two individual controls (ice/entangling) might actually be enough to make me happy.
3) Targeted AOE vs location AOE - you can use EITHER in a running battle and a location AOE is ALWAYS going to be easier to place as you can be sure exactly where it is going to end up - I can't count the number of times I have dropped glue arrow on a mob I thought was closest to me, in order to put the glue patch between myself and the enemies and had all the OTHER mobs run up to me before the patch went down while the mob I targeted stays in the back and stands still. If you think a targeted AOE is easier to use than a location AOE you and I have different definitions of easy.
As for your other points:
Ice Arrow: how the heck are you chain holding bosses with a hold that has a 9.5 second druation and an 18 second recharge? I don't stack up enough recharge on my MM's to get something like this to stack - you would need over 100% recharge to get it to stack even for a few seconds.
Entangling arrow: Ok, stackable but you have to stack it to immobilze a boss and despite the listed duration I have had trouble locking down bosses with web grenade on my thugs/traps corruptor and it is a better power in every way except range (well, it costs a little more end - but I would pay more end for a 50% recharge debuff and 5 times the run speed debuff). This power is ok but in no way makes the set.
PGA: not sure why you call a 50% chance reliable - I guess there where earlier bugs that made it even worse than that and NOW you think it is reliable. I consider anything but 100% chance (well, 95% once you factor in capped accuracy) to be unreliable.
Glue Arrow: It doesn't last through a fight - if I have to reapply it before the fight is over that means it won't be up for the next fight. Admittedly, this is a minor complaint of mine - the location vs targetted AE thing is much more of a problem but 30 seconds is borderline for any serious fight. My definition of a good duration/recharge on a power is that it lasts the whole fight without having to reapply it and it is up for the next fight. Not many things meet that defintion - which is why in my list of things I would like changed I JUST asked for it to be made easier to use, not for a longer duratin, etc.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
As it stands I MIGHT take it on an MM - but only if you could convince me to play a /TA MM, which is unlikely as the set stands.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're arguing about TA as it pertains to masterminds, and you haven't played a TA mastermind?
...
[ QUOTE ]
Ice Arrow: how the heck are you chain holding bosses with a hold that has a 9.5 second druation and an 18 second recharge? I don't stack up enough recharge on my MM's to get something like this to stack - you would need over 100% recharge to get it to stack even for a few seconds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Slot... Hold... enhancements...
...
*shakes head and walks away*
[ QUOTE ]
I get that you think PGA is a great power - I don't, even combined with the -recharge and -speed in the other powers, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. As it stands I MIGHT take it on an MM - but only if you could convince me to play a /TA MM, which is unlikely as the set stands. I would never take it on my controllers and I don't play defenders because I can't stand them. Give me a decent amount of -damage, even as much as 20% although 25-30 would actually make it usefull in my mind, and I would consider it decent. 15% is nothing.
[/ QUOTE ]
In a vacuum PGA may not seem like much. However it's not in a vacuum. It's in a power set which offers other complementary powers. The power of trick arrow is not in any one given debuff or power, but in how it can quickly leverage a wide assortment of them.
[ QUOTE ]
2)ok - I admit I missed the -recharge in ice arrow but its STILL only 10%. Having to stack 3 powers just to get 40% recharge debuff on a single target is kinda sucky. I don't understand your point about AV's - I am addressing general set use, not AV's. Any argument that includes the phrase "helps with AV's" is a null argument for me as AV fights are a VERY small part of the game. I am not asking for a lot - 20% or so in each of the two individual controls (ice/entangling) might actually be enough to make me happy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I bring up AVs because frankly, an EB/AV/GM is the only thing that's gonna survive long enough to really be a concern. This is true on my Illusion/TA controller, it's true on my TA/A defender, and it's equally true on my Thug/TA mastermind. Bosses could be trouble, but I can put them on ice easily enough, then destroy them.
[ QUOTE ]
3) Targeted AOE vs location AOE - you can use EITHER in a running battle and a location AOE is ALWAYS going to be easier to place as you can be sure exactly where it is going to end up - I can't count the number of times I have dropped glue arrow on a mob I thought was closest to me, in order to put the glue patch between myself and the enemies and had all the OTHER mobs run up to me before the patch went down while the mob I targeted stays in the back and stands still. If you think a targeted AOE is easier to use than a location AOE you and I have different definitions of easy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Try this exercise. Set up your binds and macros so that you use the numpad for ordering your henchmen and using personal attacks. Next set up so you use QWEASD for movement, and the keypad 1 through 0 for secondary powers. Put the mousepad on the right side of the keyboard as well. Now get in a heated firefight. Then tell me how quickly you can fire off a location based power vs a targeted aoe. And don't forget that in the middle of combat your character may end up spinning while your trying to place the targeted aoe.
Now try it again as your doing a running battle because your trying to kite due to that huge rikti sword of doom. Or because that EB is trying to rip your head off.
TA already has 2 location AOEs. PGA and Glue Arrow as I hear use to be location based too. Devs changed them to targeted aoe because the set had too many location drops and thus had less mid battle utility.
Don't know bout you, but I can leverage a targeted aoe on a chaotic battle field much faster then a location drop aoe.
EDIT Oh and almost didn't notice this one.
[ QUOTE ]
PGA: not sure why you call a 50% chance reliable - I guess there where earlier bugs that made it even worse than that and NOW you think it is reliable. I consider anything but 100% chance (well, 95% once you factor in capped accuracy) to be unreliable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because regardless of the enemy's level it WILL sleep half the group at least. No to-hit check either, it just hits them and half or more fall asleep. That's pretty dang reliable. Compared to the cone sleep in plant domination for instance, I get this effect with no acc slotting... yet the cone sleep in plant dom I noticed kept missing most of the groups... usually it would miss the entire group despite slotting acc.
As for how I chain hold bosses? Hmm, let's look at my usual pre-set slotting for ice arrow.
1 acc, 3 hold, 2 recharge
So I get my acc to about 95% *higher if I'm hitting with acid arrow), my hold lasts almost twice as long, and recharges faster. Amazing isn't it. And if I want something held *now*? Well I'll be getting an aoe hold soon, and shortly after that another single target hold.
Do you claim the hold in /poison is useless too?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
On location vs targetted AOE - I guess its a difference in keyboard/mouse control style - I hotkey location AOE's to shift+lbutton, shift+rbutton, alt+lbutton and alt+rbutton and can either fast drop them (with a shift+lbutton) or two click drop them with a shift+rbutton, set the location then hit lbutton. I am very fast at it and do it all the time with my ilusion/TA controller. I have never had to micromange my pets - I have my numlock hotkeys set up to do the 4-5 basic commands I need to use and I generally run on either follow + defensive (for BG mode) or attack + defensive to order my pets to take out a specific target then return to BG mode. I might set up an addional hotkey to do goto commands for specific pets (grave knights - behave) but thats about it.
The only reason I haven't played a /TA mastermind yet is because I have 4 I am working on currently (thugs/traps, merc/dark, necro/pain and thugs/storm) and I am not currently interested in starting another. If we DO get a new primary for MM's in City of Rogues I might give /TA a try then, but for now comparing the numbers in /TA against what I can achieve with other secondaries it just doesn't feel worth it.
I am only suggesting small changes - not huge ones. I don't think the set sucks completely, I love it on controllers but thats because a controller primary makes up for lack of damage mitigation at low levels that I feel /TA has AND because controllers get the best numbers out of the set since they don't take that much of a hit on the debuffs and they get the best control numbers. With MM's between the extra end cost and the even harder hit on the debuff numbers the set looks anemic. I realize I may change my mind in play but with so many other really good secondaries for masterminds /TA comes in nearly last (I consider poison worst - but only because of its single target focus which is not a playstyle I like on my MM's).
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
Demon Summoning ftw
[ QUOTE ]
but for now comparing the numbers in /TA against what I can achieve with other secondaries it just doesn't feel worth it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is where you and so many others make the mistake. You compare numbers. Just looking at the raw numbers though doesn't give the entire story. It doesn't tell you how the powers work together. Sure you can look and say "Ah ha! Low debuff numbers, it wont be very good". And yet those 'low numbers' end up being quite effective. Not so useful for soloing elite bosses usually, but effective still.
Not to mention in large teams I find it's more useful then someone just spamming heals. 
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
Everything factored in, I wouldn't take TA over Dark Miasma. Dark can heal, the ToHit debuff is significant enough to still effect AVs(I don't care about "The Unresistable Flash"), and that Darkest Night is a larger -Damage, then times two with the Dark Servant.
However, since I still refuse to play Dark Miasma or Force Field on Masterminds, I'm happy with Merc/TA.
[Edit]: Oh, also: Night Widows can do Unresistable -ToHit, so I guess between TT:M and Mind Link, Night Widows are better buffers/debuffers than both? 
Yeah, I went there.
[ QUOTE ]
Everything factored in, I wouldn't take TA over Dark Miasma. Dark can heal, the ToHit debuff is significant enough to still effect AVs(I don't care about "The Unresistable Flash"), and that Darkest Night is a larger -Damage, then times two with the Dark Servant.
However, since I still refuse to play Dark Miasma or Force Field on Masterminds, I'm happy with Merc/TA.
[Edit]: Oh, also: Night Widows can do Unresistable -ToHit, so I guess between TT:M and Mind Link, Night Widows are better buffers/debuffers than both? Yeah, I went there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Personally, after trying a /dark mastermind (char story reasons) I wont pick dark miasma over trick arrow on a mastermind. The heal is powerful sure, but the aoe for it is really freaking small. I noticed pets had a tendency to move away from me while I'm trying to heal them, thus not getting the heal.
I also noticed darkest night's aoe seems smaller for masterminds, and it can be rather annoying trying to group the enemies in the smallish debuff area. Not to mention the fact that I noticed my pets loved to ignore my orders and kill the darkest night anchor first. It's like playing on a horrid ish-4 PUG with a dark defender all over again.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set, however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE, does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much) and frequently won't last through a fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Three recharge SO's and this recharges exactly as fast as it wears off. Look, no more complaint about it not lasting through a fight. Slot some slows in it too and the recharge debuff is stronger. Happy times. The same is true of PGA and most of the other debuffs too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless there was a change that I missed (which is possible), slow enhancements only affect -speed, not -recharge. The debuff portion of PGA (-damage) is also unenhanceable. So are the -resist debuffs in Acid and Disruption Arrows. That leaves -defense and -speedand technically -tohit, though it's such a low return for the slotting investmentas the enhanceable debuffs in Trick Arrow.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set, however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE, does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much) and frequently won't last through a fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Three recharge SO's and this recharges exactly as fast as it wears off. Look, no more complaint about it not lasting through a fight. Slot some slows in it too and the recharge debuff is stronger. Happy times. The same is true of PGA and most of the other debuffs too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless there was a change that I missed (which is possible), slow enhancements only affect -speed, not -recharge. The debuff portion of PGA (-damage) is also unenhanceable. So are the -resist debuffs in Acid and Disruption Arrows. That leaves -defense and -speedand technically -tohit, though it's such a low return for the slotting investmentas the enhanceable debuffs in Trick Arrow.
[/ QUOTE ]
Coulda sworn it still enhanced -recharge too. Huh. I guess I should mention something then about the 'low' -recharge. Defenders get the most out of debuffs, right? And masterminds have the lowest values for baked in buff sets? Then explain to me why masterminds have the same strength of recharge debuffing as defenders.
If glue arrow is useful in the hands of a defender or controller due to the recharge debuff, why is it less useful for a mastermind who has the same strength of debuff?
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
Then explain to me why masterminds have the same strength of recharge debuffing as defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the context I'm not sure if that's rhetorical, but if not: it's because Glue Arrow debuffs via a pseudo pet, and the devs haven't created separate sticky-arrow pets for the different ATs. (MMs do get lower -recharge debuff values when applying recharge debuffs directly) (edit: going by city of data, anyway)
And re: enhancing -recharge, I *think* there is/was a display bug where it showed slow (and possibly runspeed) enhancements as also enhancing -recharge, but that it wasn't really having an effect. My memory's hazy on that one though.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then explain to me why masterminds have the same strength of recharge debuffing as defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
From the context I'm not sure if that's rhetorical, but if not: it's because Glue Arrow debuffs via a pseudo pet, and the devs haven't created separate sticky-arrow pets for the different ATs. (MMs do get lower -recharge debuff values when applying recharge debuffs directly) (edit: going by city of data, anyway)
And re: enhancing -recharge, I *think* there is/was a display bug where it showed slow (and possibly runspeed) enhancements as also enhancing -recharge, but that it wasn't really having an effect. My memory's hazy on that one though.
[/ QUOTE ]
It was retorical actually. I just get a kick out of people saying "this power is great for X archtype but sucks for Y archtype" when it works identically for both. If something does the same thing for two archtypes at the same strength then claiming one is 'better' at using the power is silly.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
It was retorical actually. I just get a kick out of people saying "this power is great for X archtype but sucks for Y archtype" when it works identically for both. If something does the same thing for two archtypes at the same strength then claiming one is 'better' at using the power is silly.
[/ QUOTE ]
The context made me think that, but the wording made me less certain. Oh well, guess it provides a minor bit of info for folks that didn't know.
[ QUOTE ]
Everything factored in, I wouldn't take TA over Dark Miasma. Dark can heal, the ToHit debuff is significant enough to still effect AVs(I don't care about "The Unresistable Flash"), and that Darkest Night is a larger -Damage, then times two with the Dark Servant.
However, since I still refuse to play Dark Miasma or Force Field on Masterminds, I'm happy with Merc/TA.
[Edit]: Oh, also: Night Widows can do Unresistable -ToHit, so I guess between TT:M and Mind Link, Night Widows are better buffers/debuffers than both? Yeah, I went there.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is my feelings as well. And just like you, while dark is better, I still prefer my thug/ta over any x/dark MM.
VS an AV
dark does -tohit on par with TA, better with fluffy, but still has a def toggle and in applying all that -tohit does heaps of -damage.
Has resistance to energy and psi, which are fairly common in AV land
A heck of a good heal
Similar -res capabilities
Vs normal pve
It isn't even close. If you can't beat the game as a /dark MM you need to /uninstall. In actual play fearsome stare alone is as good of mitigation as everything TA throws out and then /dark heals everyone to full 
That said, I still prefer oil slick over all of dark. Just get high recharge so it is up all the time. I also really like glue arrow, not that it is all that amazing even with the recently bumped -rech debuff.
Finally, tell Castle to get off his butt and fix the pseudo pets. It is the source of a lot of distress in multiple AT's.
As for NW's, heh they can also pick up dark obliteration for even more aoe -tohit and also a cone immob. look out! Oh and the get vengeance too!
See, I like my Team-build Dark/Dark/Psi Defender. He's as flexible as most Controllers for mob management between Tentacles, Tar Patch, Torrent and Fearsome Stare, and brings plenty of debuffs to a group. However, Dark as a MM secondary is just a snore. I basically hit a toggle and mash FS/Heal until I get desired results.
TA represents a separate disdain, I.E. multiple debuffs that all do thereabout the same and several controls. TA's got one power that really shines, which is Oil Slick Arrow, which is a great power, but just seems like one of those cases where I'd like the other debuffs to have some more "Ooomph".
[ QUOTE ]
Stacking FS, I also didn't include because it would expose variables which would alter the overall calculation, primarily slotting. It needs to be slotted for Accuracy, but beyond that, if you're slotting for -ToHit, then you're sacrificing +Recharge, or if you slot for +Recharge, you sacrifice -ToHit, and in either case, you still haven't slotted it for Endurance Reduction. It's no longer a simple 1+1 equation, the whole thing changes. Frankly, I don't know what the optimal slotting of FS would be, whether the character in question would have Hasten and/or Tactics (which would alleviate the slotting issue, but add the issue of even more rapid endurance consumption, which in and of itself affects the average -ToHit a Dark can apply)... too much recalculating for too many different variations for me to make any kind of accurate estimation of the contribution of double-stacked FS.
[/ QUOTE ]
Looking at the numbers, you'd need like a really hacked out build to double stack FS anyways. Like 100% recharge in FS and hasten and some global recharge to get anywhere near double FS most of the time. So single FS is pretty fair.
Although, looking at that, Twilights Grasp has a duration of 20 seconds and a base recharge of 8, which with very minimal slotting is perma doubled. And if you add in a second 3.75 (which is very reasonable considering TG is also -damage, a heal, and -regen, which is all very nice for AV fights)
TG + FS: ((3.75*2 + (11.25 * 1.56)) * 0.15) * 0.95 = 3.569625%
Added to DN's 2.6325 is a 6.2% tohit debuff which passes up flash arrow. And I think accounting for stacking TG is reasonable, since my dark MM can pretty much spam that heal all day, even with toggles running.
I'm not entirely sure if the debuffs TG applies do stack from the same caster actually.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not entirely sure if the debuffs TG applies do stack from the same caster actually.
[/ QUOTE ]
They do.
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
/TA is the only set I have not really tried. Every time I think about it, it just discourages me when I look at the numbers. /TA's debuff values are not that good. I've seen quite a few Ninja/TA that makes me not want to try it. Their Genins just die left and right.
(Dark's best power IMO is Fearsome Stare!)
I had a lvl 21 Merc/TA but he is on Freedom and my main server is now Virtue.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent. A while back AV's got massive to-hit debuff resistance. I recall a couple rad defenders going "WTF" while fighting one with me when they kept getting hit fairly reliably despite two sets of rad debuffs on it.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
TA does, in fact, have several debuffs that are unavailable to Dark, and against AVs, Flash Arrow alone is superior to the entirety of Dark's -ToHit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, are you sure about this? I thought Flash Arrow debuffs only like 3.5% tohit?
[/ QUOTE ]
Against an AV, a dark's debuffs are combined not quite as potent. A while back AV's got massive to-hit debuff resistance. I recall a couple rad defenders going "WTF" while fighting one with me when they kept getting hit fairly reliably despite two sets of rad debuffs on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh so Flash Arrow's tohit can't be resisted. I didn't know that.
But doesn't /dark have Shadowfall for 3.5% base defense? Defense is not affected by enemy's level as well. If the AV is higher lvl, 3.75% tohit debuff is still gonna be reduced but Defense doesn't?
/Dark also offers rare Psionic team resistance and very common Energy resistance?
I don't know man... Flash Arrow's tohit debuff doesn't seem that impressive to me. I know /TA also has damage debuff and it's only 15%, the same as Darkest Night but Grasp has base 10% damage debuff as well?
Put "feeling" aside (/TA set looks very weak when I team with them), /TA doesn't even look that good on paper. /Dark at least has a very useful self heal.
And also, let's say that Oil Slick Arrow is the defining power in TA, Necro will have a hard time igniting it? Merc will need Commando to use Flamethrower. Ninja's Oni does fire damage so he is the easiest. Thug will need tier 1 pet and Robot will need Assault Robot? Ninja and Robot (and maybe Thug) should be easy to ignite OLA but others may be a bit more difficult?
I've played several Ninjas and it is already tough to keep Genins alive. I doubt /TA's debuffs are good enough. A combination of debuffs and healing like /dark is much more efficient IMO.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Well, I tend to side with the OP on this - for a set that has no buffs and only debuffs/controls TA seems to be a little light, especially when you factor in the lower MM modifiers.
Where I feel the set is lacking is in defensive debuffs - offensively I think it is fine even ignoring oil slick arrow. Defensively though you have the following:
Flash Arrow - only usefull if you are fighting AV's. Folks love to trot this out as if this where a huge part of the game - it isn't.
Poison gas arrow - totally skippable, a 15% damage debuff along with an unreliable sleep is almost useless without something to complement it.
Two single target controls (ice+entangling arrow): These are nice powers but with the low duration and high end cost that MM's pay and the fact that they generally have nothing to stack with them, so they are useless on anything higher than an LT, makes them questionable for an MM.
Glue Arrow - Only really good defensive power in the set, however it is hard to place because it is a targetting AOE rather than a location AOE, does almost no recharge debuff (20% again, isn't much) and frequently won't last through a fight.
Once you get oil slick arrow the set does improve quite a bit as the knockdown is a nice defense, but you have to deal with the pet bug if it happens to ignite (or if you want to ignite it).
Please note - I have several /TA controller and I LOVE it as a controller set. The longer control times and slightly higher values for everything make it just good enough when your primary compliments it so well but for an MM I just can see it standing up to the utility of dark and traps or the healing and buffing of pain domination.
I don't think it needs a lot but it does need a little:
1) Poison gas arrow is a joke - either make it a reliable sleep power or give it more damage debuff. Defenders are the only ones who get a decent amount of damage debuff and even then I am not sure I would ever take this power as a defender.
2) Add some recharge reduction to entangling arrow - 10% isn't noticeable, even when stacked with glue arrows 20%. I think it would be better to increase it here rather than in glue arrow so that it doesn't get overpowering - this way to get a lot of -recharge you would have to put down glue arrow then entangle each mob individually.
3) Make glue arrow a location AE so you can set up glue 'traps' with it OR give it more range so you don't have to close to aggro distance to fire it off. This applies to ALL version of the set and is my pet peeve with the power.
I would like to see more -tohit in the set but I have seen all the arguements for/against changing flash arrow and I would tend to agree that things get to complicated there (well - I don't really agree but I don't want to deal with all the folks who can't live without thier unresistable to hit debuff for AV fights - so I give on that fight).
Really, thats about all I would do - just a little more defensive debuff.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13