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GOD IS ALWAYS WATCHING YOU, JUDADS
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*hides under an umbrella so none of the gods can see her*
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God sees through the eyes of all small children.
And dogs.
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Not all gods watch from above. Some watch from below, up your skirt.
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Hanky-pankius, God of Lechers!
The Marshmallow spectrum
Gud � Peeps
| Rice Krispy Treats
| Smores
Ebil - Circus Peanuts
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I'm staying.
Though I'm sure nobody cares; just like I don't really care that people are leaving.
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Finally, a rational thought process that I can agree with.
And no, I really don't care if people are staying either.
The only shame I see is those that openly admit that they don't play the game, but insist on coming to the forums to inflict their diatribes on the rest of us. Sure, you're paid up and that permits you to post on the forums, but spew your insults and snide remarks elsewhere please, not on the Justice forums.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Thanks! I was going to thank you for saving me the time it would have taken me to hunt it down so that I could get into the game, but that didn't happen. Instead I read more of the thread, started to write a reply, flipped back to the thread to check some details, thoguth maybe I should abandon the original reply & then reply to one of the new ones and...
And then I realized that worrying about this problem is keeping me away from things I'd really rather enjoy. That the smart thing for me to do, for myself, is to not worry about this, put it behind me & get on with what I'd rather be doing. This problem may be the reason this game ends prematurely, but I don't think it's going to happen real soon. And that's good enough for me. I'm going to enjoy the company of y'all here for as long as I can, and deal as best I can with the losses of those that choose to leave as it happens.
I don't know for sure if that's what the devs are doing, but right now, with my bed calling to me, it sure seems like the smart play. Work on the game as long as it lasts. Do the best that you can while you're here. Worrying too much about what's said on the boards, good or bad, just keeps you from doing either. The boards ARE a useful tool and CAN provide useful insight, but they're not the end all, be all. Use the tool the best way you know how.
Heh. That sounds pretty good to this tired guy. I'm sure someone will be along at some point to point out how that's stupid or wrong. Or maybe this will go up without comment. Whatever. Sleeeeep!!!
Just so that no one takes my previous post (or small parts of it) totally out of context, I'm going to say a few things that have gone through my head for the past few weeks.
And yes, I realize that people ARE going to take my previous post or parts of it out of context. I'm still going to say this and then I'm done talking about this matter on the forums.
Who banned all of these accounts and deleted all of these characters? The Dev team? Possible, but highly unlikely. The Community team? Very doubtful, although I imagine Avatea, Nivienne, Moderator08 and EMpulse were quite busy along with the rest of the forum moderators in trying to enforce the existing (not new) forum rules. Customer Service? Very probable, which likely means this was handled either through Austin, TX (if NCSoft-NA still has offices and CS staff there) or Seattle, WA if NCSoft West is handling CS staffing now. The point is, we don't know who exactly did what. And we likely never will. I'll come back to that part later.
From all that I've read, it sounds as if a script was used that looked at specific criteria to base the actions on. From what I know of scripting, this would have likely been the easiest way to do these actions. But ... you have to be very specific in what criteria you are basing the actions on, and make sure that there are NO other possible situations that may set a True value on those criteria. Such as being in a Level Pact.
Positron and others could well have intended that each situation be looked at individually before performing any action. Those MAY have been their exact instructions, but we will likely never know due to things I'll talk about later. It could be that whoever was tasked with this started looking at the database and after running a few searches had an "OMG WUT?!" reaction and decided it would be faster and easier for them to perform the task using a script, without getting clearance from anyone else. It's also possible that whoever was tasked with this wasn't aware that LP toons might be affected, so didn't include anything in their script to check to see if the character was in a LP. If there were any others incorrectly marked by the script for action, it's likely because the person writing the script wasn't aware that those actions would trigger their limited criteria.
Is it possible someone on the Dev team was the one tasked with this chore? Sure, but I still think it's less likely, especially since it involved account bans. This is why I lean more to it being a CS issue than anything else. Also, it is more likely that a CS person wouldn't have been aware of the fact that LP characters could meet those same criteria. Heck, some of the CS people that work for NCSoft may not even play CoH/CoV, other than an occaisional test session or two, and may not even know what a Level Pact is. Also, since the matter of LP characters was brought up on the forums in regard to this, it is also less likely that it would be someone on the Dev or Community team. I'm sure some of them were reading quite a bit of the posts in reaction to Positron's announcement.
It's also possible that although Positron intended that each case be looked at individually, someone may have over-ruled him when giving the instructions. Much as we like to think of Positron as "The Boss" he still has people he has to answer to, or that can change his desired implementation of many aspects of the game.
Brian Clayton is Executive Producer of the game and (I believe) General Manager of Paragon Studios. But I don't really see this as being something Brian would overrule Matt on without giving him the go-ahead to repost to the forums that things had changed. Brian has always struck me as being very encouraging of the way the Dev team communicates with the players.
I've met one person in the Marketing department, and while he seems to be a very nice person, his job requires that he sometimes shuts down some of the communication between the Devs and the players. I witnessed him giving Castle the Evil Eye when he started talking about things Marketing wasn't ready to have discussed publicly. I'm not specifically referring to him with any of the rest of this, just the Marketing Department in general. I know that (from a current players viewpoint at least) some of the decisions by Marketing often seem to be to get information out to non-players or former players through Gaming sites rather than giving the current playerbase the first news on several things. I could easily see that someone in Marketing may have made a decision that overruled Matt's stated goal of looking at each case individually, without even thinking about how it would affect the current playerbase. Their view of players seems to be more a case of trying to attract players than to work WITH existing players. But that's the nature of their job manytimes.
We just don't know who did what, and likely never will.
Why do I keep saying we likely never will? Past experience with some events that happened and were very publicly aired on the forums. I think the orders may have come down from elsewhere that this wasn't to be discussed and our Dev and Community teams are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
What previous events? Well, think back to Lighthouse's post in the PvP changes thread that got so many people riled up. Some players were calling for him to be fired for speaking so blatantly. Some were applauding him for speaking what they saw as the truth. Some thought he'd just had enough of the whining and moaning and blew off a bit of steam in the post.
A short time later, Lighthouse made his farewell post and several immediately jumped to the conclusion that he'd been fired. Some specifically cited Positron as being the cause, even though there was no evidence then, just as now, that Positron had anything to do with LH leaving. Some players that were blaming Posi then are some of the same blaming Posi now, even though in both cases, we have no idea whether he was involved with it or not.
Prior to that, those very same PvP Changes had taken center stage. People castigated the Devs, and Castle in particular, before the changes were even put on the Test server. I recall several posts that were direct attacks on Castle and took the low road of cheapshots about his physical appearance.
Sure, the PvP changes likely killed the (then active) PvP Community that we had. I certainly haven't seen those changes doing anything to draw new players into PvP. But that's a dead horse I'm really tired of beating with a stick.
There have been other minor things happen that have caused an uproar from SOME forum posters, even though some of them were just proposed changes that hadn't been put onto Test yet to see how viable they would be. Due to the vocal minority on some of these issues, or in some cases the vocal caustic minority, I think that some parts of NCSoft have been revising their view of the open communications we've had with the Dev team in the past.
My thoughts about the silence? I don't really like it, but I'm not gonna whine and moan in almost every post I make about it. I'm not gonna drop snide little comments into my posts or my signature. I'm gonna wait to see what happens, which will likely be nothing. I think the decision was made by Marketing or someone higher up the chain than Positron (Matt) that this would be an item that would not be discussed officially. I think that is the wrong tack to take, but I don't get to make those decisions.
I've been told that people were in meetings and on the phones discussing this situation most of the day while people were trying to get their LP characters undeleted, most likely trying to figure out exactly what accounts and characters the script had incorrectly acted on, and how to reverse it (along with what compensation to grant for the error). Much of this probably also included the blow-ups on the forums and the mods having to work non-stop trying to keep up with deleting threads, warning players, as well as their regular duties and trying to get some type of response they would be allowed to post. As I said earlier, I think someone higher up likely decided that no official comment would be made, which I can see Brian, Matt, Jesse and other Devs along with Moderator08, Nivienne, and others fighting and arguing against. These are the people that know the community the best, and know how bad such a decision would be.
But we will likely never know.
And that's the LAST I'm saying on this subject on the forums.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Well reasoned and thoughtfully expressed.
You are correct in pointing out the hierarchy of Paragon/NCSoft may well preclude individuals from coming forward and giving us any insight into what went wrong with the level pact bans and the utter silence that has surrounded this issue ever since.
However, it is definitely my prerogative to "whine and moan" about it. Now why would I do such a thing? Because there is no other avenue to pursue for fixing what I perceive as a mistake.
If you choose not to talk about the issue, that's fine too, I'm not suggesting that you need to follow the same tack as me. But when you are labeling someone who chooses to make an issue out of something that you yourself have suggested wasn't quite right to begin with, maybe you should look at your own motivations for wanting to wash your hands of this.
Granted, there may never be a resolution that is satisfactory to the 'whiners' and the 'moaners', but what is the alternative? Suck it up? Sure, you could always turn a blind eye to injustices and screwups. But this _is_ Justice, and I think that this particular screwup had hit too closely to a section of the playerbase that has been here a long time and is quite familiar with the game. CoX is a community based game, and when people in the community are so adversely affected by the bans, perhaps the community needs to speak up.
Of course, like in any community, some will feel that this issue has never affected them and they have no need or desire to look at this issue. They would rather this entire event be erased from our collective memories and live in ignorant bliss.
Of course, others have chosen to leave. In essence, they'd rather put their money into a different place, and not reward NCSoft/Paragon Studios for this action. I'm not sure what their exit surveys have said, or how much weight the publishers of this game place upon it, but I don't believe that any of that information is looked at except on a quarterly or monthly basis, which dilutes the connection of leaving with level pact bans.
However, there is a subset of the players of this game who disagree with what was done and do not wish to inflict harm upon the game nor to its publishers. If you want to call them 'whiners' and 'moaners', that's OK, but I prefer to think of them as 'reformers'. The reformers want to establish a dialog with the publishers and convey to them how poorly thought out this strategy of silence is, and what the deleterious effect of banning via script has done.
It is entirely possible that there will never be a response from up high, and those who may want to speak may be muzzled. But then again, perhaps by speaking out, the reformers may be able to whine and moan their way to real and substantive changes that will improve the game.
Thanks for your post Tex.
I'm sorry if some of my posts are bringing you down, but I'm calling'em like I'm seeing'em just like you are.
I do realize that NCSoft and Paragon Studios has many different parts and that these parts are sometimes in conflict with each other on a given issue. And I also realize that many of us wrongly call all of those parts collectively "devs".
I don't know which department or individual took the particular actions that riled me up. But it's a fair guess that it was some kind of collective process as you describe above.
And I also agree that it appears to be becoming a trend that the Dev's announce something and they get flamed before it even gets tested. I don't agree with the players that do that and make it into personal attacks. But part of that trend also seems to be that NCSoft/Paragon doesn't care what any particular segment of the playerbase has to say about this issue or that because they have something big and great coming down the pike that everyone should love. I've been anxiously awaiting for that for several months and all we've gotten in I15 is a mini issue consisting mainly of a buggy and poorly written TF.
Going Rogue could be promising, but it may be more of the same. We'll have to wait and see.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Out of concern for our community, I was very frustrated, upset and disappointed when I heard what happened and saw how things were handled...still disappointed, but much of my initial frustration and anger have subsided. But I've already passed along my opinions to our community reps and have pretty much said my peace on the matter. I did want to mention though that when I had a chance to cool down and reflect upon things, many of the thoughts and theories on what might be going on behind the scenes that were expressed by RG and TJ in their lengthy posts did cross my mind.
With all due respect TJ, am going to reply as it pertains to me as I am one of the "whine and moan r's" regardless of it was directed to me or not I fall in that category. Personally I look at it as stating my opinion and when others have countered I have never called them "Dev brown nosers" so i don't appreciate being called a whiner. See the respect thing works both ways I can generalize anyone with an opposite opinion as that as easily as you generalized my opinions as whining.
Do I think it applies to you? No I don't I actually like and respect you enough to tell you generalizing posting about how you feel (your opinion) as whining is rude and insulting.
That said I personally think it's great that you and so many others have gotten to meet the Dev team I have always wanted to go to hero con myself. Again i will make my reply to your statements based on me as that is the only person I can speak for. Do I think it was Posi or a Dev who "ordered" the bannings I don't know and I never claimed to, but here is the thing his name will always be attached to it and rightfully so. The second he made the post announcing the punishments he attached himself to it. It could have just have easily been made by the nameless Administrator and thus have no personal attachment to the action. Instead not only does it have a name but one of someone who holds a position of leadership and power. So when people site him they are right to do so. Honestly it really doesn't matter who did it who made the mistake (yes they are human i don't think they did it on purpose) what matters is that it was done. There would be no shame in admitting that and most likely they would have been lauded for their honesty and responsibility. Instead they compounded one mistake with another of silence and silencing.
Again you have generalized people's actions without knowing steps they have taken. Perhaps if [censored] on the forums was all i did maybe it may be considered whining, but you have no idea steps i have taken behind the scenes. I have tried to open communications via the moderators and the devs (to no avail) and i have begun to go further than that. I love this game enough to try to fight to make it better and not have it hurt by this. Please don't insult me without considering that maybe we both have valid points.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
>.>
<.<
Philly posted
so
IBTL
word
@Ba'alat/@Zizka
"Plausibility is nothing compared to nerdrage." --PumBumbler
what merm said lmao
the doom hammer is upon us!! runs!
I've become one with the Cake!
HA!
Thanks for the laugh Mermie!
Also, even though I may get frustrated by it at times, I do want to thank the crusaders, the "whiners", and yes even the [censored]-hats for taking the time to post. Sometimes you make this a better place. I appreciate the results, and the efforts, and the thoughts behind the efforts, even if I don't always appreciate or agree with the form of those thoughts & efforts. I appreciate it because it's something I'm not willing to do myself, but get to enjoy the benefits of anyway.
So, thanks!
For my part, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. Try to make things "better" in my immediate vicinity, at the time, in ways that are easy & convenient for me. I know I'm not always going to get it right, and I hope you'll be able to forgive me when that happens. All I really expect to accomplish is to do the occasional "good deed" every now & then, because sometimes, that's exactly what someone NEEDS.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
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We just don't know who did what, and likely never will.
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And my point is that its largely irrelevant next to the fact that a decision was made and it was done. Regardless of who pushed the button, the company is still in charge of the button pusher and is liable for that button pushers actions.
I am a bureaucrat, its not just a fancy name, I know better than most how multi-faceted a company can be, I know how duties can be spread across many different departments and how difficult it is to point to one area and say "that right there is where X happens". Most likely Positron may have had little to actually do with the ban script, though I find it suspicious that a C/S person could design a script for that purpose. However Positron put his name to the policy shift and as such for better or worse, whether he did it or not, its his. Paragon Studios can't point a finger at some nameless schlub and say "his fault", pat themselves on the back, and move on. Paragon Studios should own up to the fact that their policy has caused some unintended harm, and as customers we should be informed if they are planning on fixing a problem that could effect us in the future if left uncorrected.
Prior to this temp bans were handed out on a case by case, usually for some form of griefing and I assume but don't know that some were for exploits. This is the first I have ever heard of them running ban/delete scripts as a punishment. Most exploits get closed, we hear about it later, and I have yet to hear of people getting banned for having used them, much less getting banned after it was fixed for using it in the past. No one was banned for the winter lord fiasco, they took the hit, learned from the mistake, and fixed it.
I guess my biggest thing is that its not just this incident, its one in a long line that has started just around the time that NCsoft bought COH and created paragon studios and heavily reinvested in the game. Since then the last couple of issues have been handled poorly. Red_Gren brought up a lot of points that I had already considered, they have new staff, a new office, a lot of really big changes have been happening. I understand all of that. I also understand your points TJ in that we will never really know who did what and who has been putting the gag on the devs.
My main point is that I am a customer. I play this game because its still kind of fun to me, the community is great, and the customer service was fantastic. The customer service has changed massively. I would consider it far below what I find acceptable and as such I am taking my business elsewhere. When they fix it I will come back, I don't want to have to leave, but I am not going to reward a company with my patronage for service that I find unacceptable.
If I felt that the developers at paragon studios were still in charge I would send a message to them, but I don't feel thats the case anymore, so I am sending NCsoft the only message they will care about, and that is not renewing my subscription. Maybe if they get the hint they will allow Positron and Co. to run their ship like they have in the past, in a way that IMO was far better.
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HA!
Thanks for the laugh Mermie!
Also, even though I may get frustrated by it at times, I do want to thank the crusaders, the "whiners", and yes even the [censored]-hats for taking the time to post. Sometimes you make this a better place. I appreciate the results, and the efforts, and the thoughts behind the efforts, even if I don't always appreciate or agree with the form of those thoughts & efforts. I appreciate it because it's something I'm not willing to do myself, but get to enjoy the benefits of anyway.
So, thanks!
For my part, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. Try to make things "better" in my immediate vicinity, at the time, in ways that are easy & convenient for me. I know I'm not always going to get it right, and I hope you'll be able to forgive me when that happens. All I really expect to accomplish is to do the occasional "good deed" every now & then, because sometimes, that's exactly what someone NEEDS.
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You can be Sancho Panza to my Don Quixote.
To the Windmills! Ride, Sancho! RIDE!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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HA!
Thanks for the laugh Mermie!
Also, even though I may get frustrated by it at times, I do want to thank the crusaders, the "whiners", and yes even the [censored]-hats for taking the time to post. Sometimes you make this a better place. I appreciate the results, and the efforts, and the thoughts behind the efforts, even if I don't always appreciate or agree with the form of those thoughts & efforts. I appreciate it because it's something I'm not willing to do myself, but get to enjoy the benefits of anyway.
So, thanks!
For my part, I'm going to keep doing what I've been doing. Try to make things "better" in my immediate vicinity, at the time, in ways that are easy & convenient for me. I know I'm not always going to get it right, and I hope you'll be able to forgive me when that happens. All I really expect to accomplish is to do the occasional "good deed" every now & then, because sometimes, that's exactly what someone NEEDS.
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You can be Sancho Panza to my Don Quixote.
To the Windmills! Ride, Sancho! RIDE!
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It will be Sunday before I can make good on this, but...
I LIKE IT!!! 
I will now "need" to figure out & create a good Sancho Panzo sidekick-hero & then I WILL be looking for a Don Quixote from you Flea! Yes I will! However, given my attention span, I'd be surprised if this lasts more than a log-on session, if that... 
Hmmmm . . . what powersets would Don Quixote Flea and Red Sancho Panza have?
P.S. Someone get Sexy Jay to whip up one of those Spanish conquistador helmets real quick for me, please.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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Hmmmm . . . what powersets would Don Quixote Flea and Red Sancho Panza have?
P.S. Someone get Sexy Jay to whip up one of those Spanish conquistador helmets real quick for me, please.
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I'd figure broadsword & shield for Don Quixote Flea mostly for the look. And it seems to me that Red Sancho ought to be either a defender or controller of some sort. I'm leaning toward a controller so that I can both help you out & get you out of the trouble you will inevitably get yourself into.
Oh... and until Jay can provide you with the morion maybe you can approximate the cabasset displayed a bit lower down on the page.
I already have a broadsword/shield. So maybe an axe or mace/shield tank.
What I really need is a lance.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Si mi senor...
*rolls eyes*
It shall be as you wish.
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Hmmmm . . . what powersets would Don Quixote Flea and Red Sancho Panza have?
P.S. Someone get Sexy Jay to whip up one of those Spanish conquistador helmets real quick for me, please.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd figure broadsword & shield for Don Quixote Flea mostly for the look. And it seems to me that Red Sancho ought to be either a defender or controller of some sort. I'm leaning toward a controller so that I can both help you out & get you out of the trouble you will inevitably get yourself into.
Oh... and until Jay can provide you with the morion maybe you can approximate the cabasset displayed a bit lower down on the page.
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Don't you mean a shaving basin?
o.O
EEEP
*hides*
*/em boggle*
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quit jumping out like that in my threads, BaBs!
You're scaring me. 
P.S. BaBs, can you whip up a lance for me? Please? Pretty please? I'll give you free jump out in threads coupons!
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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GOD IS ALWAYS WATCHING YOU, JUDADS
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*hides under an umbrella so none of the gods can see her*
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God sees through the eyes of all small children.
And dogs.
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Well this is why I never trust dogs!
I wonder if you can use milk bones to convince a dog to lie to God about what it has seen you do...
The Marshmallow spectrum
Gud � Peeps
| Rice Krispy Treats
| Smores
Ebil - Circus Peanuts