they ALWAYS come back <.<
Volt Sentinel Reference
Thunder is good, thunder is impressive, but lightning does the work.
[ QUOTE ]
But before their can be any forgiveness there must be contrition.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is the first step of communication...
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[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
But before their can be any forgiveness there must be contrition.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree. However, my conjecture is that the company take on this is that posting a public apology only serves as fodder for those looking to stir up dissatisfaction. Sure, silence on the matter does the same, but it doesn't leave a physical record that someone can point to when someone demands "proof" of bad behavior on the part of the devs.
It would be a messed up position to take, but looking around in general at behavior in forums, one I can see someone thinking is sensible and necessary.
I'd like to see that apology & have people feeling better, but given the conjecture above, I don't think it's likely.
(If any dev sees this, I'd be happy to be proven wrong!)
It's a valid point, Red.
The counter argument is that it could also serve to sway players already disaffected.
The downside is it would be a leap of faith.
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[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Given the trend to pessimism that I've been seeing, I'd bet that they won't take that leap.
As always I'd love to lose that bet.
Edit: By the way, I took a quick glance at your blog that someone linked & it looked interesting. I plan to take a closer look at it when I have more time to give it the attention it looks like it deserves.
Oh... and in reference to your post below, I'd love for you to win that bet too!
I'd be glad to win it.
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[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
Thanks Red. As always, I'm looking for feedback on it (especially given my desired goal of neutrality in the "history" section of it)
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[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
Given the trend to pessimism that I've been seeing, I'd bet that they won't take that leap.
As always I'd love to lose that bet.
Edit: By the way, I took a quick glance at your blog that someone linked & it looked interesting. I plan to take a closer look at it when I have more time to give it the attention it looks like it deserves.
Oh... and in reference to your post below, I'd love for you to win that bet too!
[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with Red for the most part. But there's a an unfortunate trend going on here that I find really disturbing. The reduction in communication is only a piece of it. There has been, from my viewpoint, a series of missteps by the devs over many of the last issues. The misunderstanding of Merits replacing vs. supplementing recipes drops on TFs... the gutting of PvP... the rather crude handling of the base salvage... the marring of the Architect release with negative dev postings followed by badly blundered customer service management followed by even more badly blundered forum management.
I'm a fairly easy going person... but the last 6-9 months of this game have seen a lot of negativity and/or badly handled changes, depending on how you want to look at things. Nothing has yet pushed me toward the door, but for the first time in a long while, I've noticed there IS a door, as lots of people are using it. Maybe it's just a streak of bad luck for the dev team, but they haven't really done much to counter that trend.
I'm getting weary of seeing yet more tinkering with existing aspects of the game. *eyes the impending Dominator changes* Can we not move forward here? If there are more developers, can we not get more new content than a couple of new TFs in a 6 month period? Can we not expand the powerset (or, dare I say it, AT) options instead of endlessly tweaking the [censored] out of things that have been in the game for years? The Architect was a great milestone (despite the fact that I don't use it) and I'm glad to see it in the game. I am equally saddened that it's been marred by such horrible handling on both the player and developer side of the fence. There are lots of things I'd personally like to see done for the game. An apology from the dev team on anything in the past isn't one of them. For me, their "apology" lies in their future actions, and I dearly hope to see forward traction in this game rather than continued monkeywrenching of things that seems to becoming the norm.
Dark, to me the first and biggest step is communication. While I may or may not agree with the dom changes or pet +rech nerfs, I would actually hold those examples up to be the ideal way for the staff to handle such situations.
Feel free to look at my suggestions at http://cohmapunishment.blogspot.com/...-analysis.html
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
From Poositron
[ QUOTE ]
So there you have it. If you guys want to be mad at someone, be mad at me. In my efforts to make the game fun and exciting in the long term. I sometimes have to make decisions that make players unhappy, and for that I apologize. We are working hard to avoid these kinds of situations in the future, and will work hard to avoid the kinds of situations that lead to badge removal in future releases. I also want to assure you that we will not be going back and removing badges introduced previous to I14. Some of those badges are truly an accomplishment to get, and we will not take away from those that have accomplished such a task nor will we remove the ability for future players to aspire to those same heights
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, my conjecture is that the company take on this is that posting a public apology only serves as fodder for those looking to stir up dissatisfaction. Sure, silence on the matter does the same, but it doesn't leave a physical record that someone can point to when someone demands "proof" of bad behavior on the part of the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You see he is capable of making ammends. He has chosen not to do so.
Ban the badge-hunters!
Oops, sorry, wrong thread.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But before their can be any forgiveness there must be contrition.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree. However, my conjecture is that the company take on this is that posting a public apology only serves as fodder for those looking to stir up dissatisfaction. Sure, silence on the matter does the same, but it doesn't leave a physical record that someone can point to when someone demands "proof" of bad behavior on the part of the devs.
It would be a messed up position to take, but looking around in general at behavior in forums, one I can see someone thinking is sensible and necessary.
I'd like to see that apology & have people feeling better, but given the conjecture above, I don't think it's likely.
(If any dev sees this, I'd be happy to be proven wrong!)
[/ QUOTE ]
You've traded civility for accountability in that argument. While it may preserve the peace it will not engender any goodwill or positive feelings for the group of people who were affected or offended by the dev actions or lack of apology.
In essence, you might want to ignore a situation as much as you like, or 'spin' things, but just remember that you are leaving behind a group of disaffected and disenfranchised players, many of whom will remember this as they go forward to other games or stay within this one.
The long term effects of such a trade off can be felt in damaging ways by simply having such players dissuade new people from even trying the game. If you could imagine a situation wherein a player would be chatting in another game and expressing interest in a new issue of CoX, and then having another player tell them about the seemingly spurious and capricious banning of their CoX account. Not only has CoX lost their original player, but also many other potential players.
If you wish to look at it from a cost/benefit perspective, it will now require even more investment in advertising and marketing in order to lure potential players into the game.
As well, those that have NOT left the game will also bear the scars to some extent. They may not stop playing and paying, but their loyalty to the game will be severely diminished. This means that many things they would do normally, such as helping others, organizing events, or merely convivially interacting on channels, forums or zones, would be severely curtailed. As this game is an MMO, in effect, less positive interaction makes CoX less fun to play for everyone else, which leads to lower retention of players. Which means lower revenue.
As an example, simply talking about this matter like we are now has disturbed a lot of the community here. Taking the hit now, but accepting and admitting the mistakes that were made, would go a long way in ameliorating the damage that is being done.
There is a group of hardcore and dedicated players now facing a conundrum. They absolutely love the community here, even iggy (sometimes I confuse love with hate), but they have a hard time reconciling that with the actions that the developers have taken and would not like to reward poor conduct.
While an apology or admission of mistakes could be used as fodder, I believe it would likely have an opposite effect on those who are patiently waiting for one. I believe that if any of the devs were so inclined to put forth their point of view publicly, it would only be of positive benefit here. As many of the forumites here have pointed out, that the closeness of the developers to the players has been one of the big strengths in this game.
Pum sums it up for me again.
[ QUOTE ]
While an apology or admission of mistakes could be used as fodder, I believe it would likely have an opposite effect on those who are patiently waiting for one. I believe that if any of the devs were so inclined to put forth their point of view publicly, it would only be of positive benefit here. As many of the forumites here have pointed out, that the closeness of the developers to the players has been one of the big strengths in this game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pum, I'll go you one better tho...
*Officially*, the only recounting of recent events is completely without official response.
Thus, they have handcuffed themselves into creating a situation where people can spread the word, whether via the internet or via in-game discussion and the staff cannot offer contradictory evidence.
Imagine the lunacy in such a situation - the majority of the people who educate others are those expressing a contrary position and the staff are forbidden from offering any counter-evidence or arguments.
I only attended public school, but that doesn't make sense to me.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
Dark, to me the first and biggest step is communication. While I may or may not agree with the dom changes or pet +rech nerfs, I would actually hold those examples up to be the ideal way for the staff to handle such situations.
Feel free to look at my suggestions at http://cohmapunishment.blogspot.com/...-analysis.html
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not the manner of the Dominator or pet recharge changes that bother me. It's that they need be done at all. I'm tired of rehashing, and that's what my Dominator reference was for... not for how they "handled" them.
I get that and like I said, without commenting on the bonifides of such action, the way it was announced was my focus.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
I get that and like I said, without commenting on the bonifides of such action, the way it was announced was my focus.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even in those cases, I think their communication could be better. They often ask for feedback and then provide no follow up. They ask people to evaluate things, and then simply upload a change with little final explanation or reasoning. There are more than a couple recent examples of things being pointed out in closed beta that go completely ignored... with little to no response during beta.
But even in those examples, an apology isn't what I would want to see. It serves little purpose. I'd like to see processes change. I'd like to see testing become more structured. I'd like to see future communications where we currently don't get them, and better communications where we currently get bad ones. Do better at what they're trying to do... that's better than an apology in the long run.
And yes, I realize your blog lists that as something that should happen... I just don't see the need to dwell on an apology at this point when that alone won't achieve much... assuming inappropriately banned people were properly "apologized" to already. In general, a general apology won't bring back those that have left... the devs changing how they do things might.
[ QUOTE ]
Pum, I'll go you one better tho...
*Officially*, the only recounting of recent events is completely without official response.
Thus, they have handcuffed themselves into creating a situation where people can spread the word, whether via the internet or via in-game discussion and the staff cannot offer contradictory evidence.
Imagine the lunacy in such a situation - the majority of the people who educate others are those expressing a contrary position and the staff are forbidden from offering any counter-evidence or arguments.
I only attended public school, but that doesn't make sense to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I guess you weren't around from 2000 until 2008.
I think an apolgy would serve as a starting point, nothing more. Oddly, people are human.
And yes, it does seem that with some issues of late (PvP springs to mind), it was more a matter of "here's what's going to happen and we honestly don't care what you think".
Except it was still presented as looking for feedback. I'd prefer honesty to platitudes.
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I get that and like I said, without commenting on the bonifides of such action, the way it was announced was my focus.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even in those cases, I think their communication could be better. They often ask for feedback and then provide no follow up. They ask people to evaluate things, and then simply upload a change with little final explanation or reasoning. There are more than a couple recent examples of things being pointed out in closed beta that go completely ignored... with little to no response during beta.
But even in those examples, an apology isn't what I would want to see. It serves little purpose. I'd like to see processes change. I'd like to see testing become more structured. I'd like to see future communications where we currently don't get them, and better communications where we currently get bad ones. Do better at what they're trying to do... that's better than an apology in the long run.
And yes, I realize your blog lists that as something that should happen... I just don't see the need to dwell on an apology at this point when that alone won't achieve much... assuming inappropriately banned people were properly "apologized" to already. In general, a general apology won't bring back those that have left... the devs changing how they do things might.
[/ QUOTE ]
Most of the time, people only say things so they receive affirmation. Anything contrary to their point of view gets discarded. I get the feeling that beta is kind of like that for the devs.
And if you contradict me, I'll plug my ears and yell LA-LA-LA.
I knew it!
Support the Mentor Project - http://tinyurl.com/citymentorproject
[JFA2010]Mod08: And I will strike down upon thee (enrious) with great vengence and .... oh wait wrong script
@enrious, @sardonicism, @MyLexiConIsHugeSon
If you haven't joined a global channel, you're not really looking for team.
[ QUOTE ]
From Poositron
[ QUOTE ]
So there you have it. If you guys want to be mad at someone, be mad at me. In my efforts to make the game fun and exciting in the long term. I sometimes have to make decisions that make players unhappy, and for that I apologize. We are working hard to avoid these kinds of situations in the future, and will work hard to avoid the kinds of situations that lead to badge removal in future releases. I also want to assure you that we will not be going back and removing badges introduced previous to I14. Some of those badges are truly an accomplishment to get, and we will not take away from those that have accomplished such a task nor will we remove the ability for future players to aspire to those same heights
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, my conjecture is that the company take on this is that posting a public apology only serves as fodder for those looking to stir up dissatisfaction. Sure, silence on the matter does the same, but it doesn't leave a physical record that someone can point to when someone demands "proof" of bad behavior on the part of the devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
You see he is capable of making ammends. He has chosen not to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you're right, you're right. I think I remember seeing that post, but haven't followed that thread. I don't suppose I could trouble you for a link? I've got this horrible tendency to prefer to play games when at home, rather than go searching through forums.
What was the response? Generally positive?
[ QUOTE ]
What you can do is decide what is best for you, and then act on it.
[/ QUOTE ]
And this is what everyone is doing.
I am saddened that people I consider friends and fun to hang with in-game are leaving and I selfishly wish that they would stay.
But it would also be a little hypocritcal of me to argue for them to stay when I cancelled one of my accounts for pretty much the same reason.
I don't disagree with anything you said, Red. I agree that the devs and the players both want the best from the game and sometimes we agree and sometimes we disagree. And I agree that both groups are falllible and imperfect beings. I can forgive all sorts of wrongs commited against me, my family, my friends, and my larger community.
But before their can be any forgiveness there must be contrition.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad