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All the CCs completely negate Ice Slick because they prevent the mobs from falling down.
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That's only if you assume that Ice Slick is the only way to control. Now it may seem to be the best that ice has to offer, but remember that you're wanting to go with /storm where the -kb can be helpful. So don't rule out those types of powers. Of course you can go the route of chaos and leave out the -kb. But then a lot of your stormy powers will be knocking stuff out of your slick anyway. Decisions...decisions.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
I am also interested in an Ice/Storm guy, but with the drawbacks of Ice I am trying to figure out how to actually control with him.
Edit: (Example) Let's assume I am something like, hmm, Ice/Emp (I am trying to think of a secondary that will not affect my controlling ability). Many times in groups mobs are already AOE immobilized by other controllers also. In this situation Ice seems practically worthless except for the slows. And if the other controller is a /Storm then the mobs are already slowed with Snow Storm anyhow.
I really enjoyed my Ice/Storm all the way to 50, and still pull him out periodically. I played mine as a melee-oriented character who rarely used Frostbite (the AoE Immobilize).
Arctic Air is the key. Properly slotted with max EndRdx and Confuse, AA provides about 70% damage mitigation for your melee teammates. My standard strategy in lower levels was to let the tank go in and grab initial aggro, then cast Ice Slick. Run in with AA and Steamy Mist running to slow and reduce recharge on the few foes not falling down. SM also provides nice resistance to Energy, Fire and Cold, and a little defense. Hang around with the melee guys, using Block of Ice and Chilblain and Air Superiority to contribute damage. If things got out of hand, I had Snow Storm to add more slow and -Recharge. Freezing Rain then gave me a second Slip-n-fall power to follow Ice Slick, or I could open with Freezing Rain if I wanted the debuffs more. Hurricane and Glacier were my panic button powers, but Hurricane had other uses as well.
Later, as the storm powers filled in, I was able to add damage with Lightning Storm. I only took Frostbite at 30 so that I could use Tornado as a damage power without scattering foes everywhere. I find other uses for Frostbite on occation, but I don't use it all that often. Frostbite + Snow Storm + a touch of Hurricane is nearly a hold, but takes a while to set up.
Initially I tried the Earth APP, but later changed to Ice. Overall, it is a fun character with a good concept. (Devices that absorb heat to create atmospheric disturbances. Brother of the inventor lost the devices down a storm drain while his brother was being killed, so he goes by the name, Storm Drain.) What made him different was that he was one of my only controllers who was melee-oriented, but not focused on damage. Fire controllers are melee-oriented but focused on damage. The Storm powers made a huge difference in the character -- the only one I skipped was Thunderclap. I skipped Flashfreeze and Shiver in Ice.
At level 50, I most frequently use Storm Drain on ITFs. The slow has a huge effect on that TF, and I can anchor Snow Storm on the EBs and AVs so it lasts a while. Since many of the foes have knockback resistance, I can use Tornado and Lightning Storm with abandon. Ice Slick takes a back seat to Freezing Rain, but Ice Slick is still very effective against the 5th.
On Fire, don't worry much about the fragility of the Imps. Yes, they die, but not all that often if you have a secondary with a heal. I have a Fire/Rad at 50 and a Fire/Kin at 40, and both are able to keep the Imps alive most of the time. Just plan to slot a little Recharge in the imps. My Fire/Rad is one of my favorite characters.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Please help me decide on one of these. A good discussion of the pros and cons of each set would be appreciated.
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I jumped straight on the ice thing and didn't really finish.
Ice/Storm- would be a slow specialist, using less "traditional control" and more slow slow slow. As Local points out its very effective on an ITF.
Grav/Storm- will embrace the true meaning of chaos control. Sure you can't use your hard controls to "settle down" the chaos of storm. With a Grav/Storm you embrace the chaos and use THAT as a means of control. i.e. your melee teammates will hate you. 
Fire/Storm- (one I've leveled to 50) is a damage monster, a nice soloist, and an endurance Vacuum! (smart IO slotting is really needed with fire/storm) This set truely is a ton of fun (the imps are fine by the way, may squishy but hey you have 3 of them!) I was street sweeping +4s rather easily in Cimerora in my mid 40s.
With storm you'll have to realize that things like floppity flops are going to be used a little differently due to the knockaround nature of storm. But thats ok because that knockaround nature is also a form of control and/or damage.
Oh and Earth/Storm is a beast.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and Earth/Storm is a beast.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. It's a buffet of slows, stun and knockdowns. Some of the best synergy (if not THE best) between secondary and primary. Also, if you're looking for a sturdy pet...
Fire/Storm has some stuns you can stack. The Imps are okay. Yeah, they get stomped pretty easily, but you get three.
Ice Storm has some slows and Knockdowns you can stack.
Not very familiar with grav...
There's not really much in the game that slows down/stops Tornado's knockback, short of an AV or GM. It will easily toss around enemies with immobs from two different controllers.
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
Actually Gravity has great synergy with Storm because the AoE immobilize doesn't stop knockdown, mobs in your Freezing Rain can be immobilized there and still be falling down. Hit them with Snowstorm before the Freezing Rain lets up and they are stuck there and slowed to a crawl on their attacks. Tornado is very situation with a Grav/Storm, but there are a couple good uses for it. The single target hold does stop knockback so you can kill bosses with the tornado after the minions are dead. Or you can use the Hurricane corner/culdesac trick to keep them pinned while Tornado does it work. I found that with Propel, I don't really miss Tornado soloing, and on teams, even with my Ice and Earth Storm controllers I rarely pull out tornado because you WILL miss a guy, and Tornado WILL throw him down the hall towards the next mob, and it will UNFAILINGLY chase the guy it tossed rather than stay and kill the trapped guys. So Tornado on teams = unwanted agro = wipe often enough that I don't use it much on teams at all.
Ice/Storm is very effective. Ice Slick + Freezing Rain = Win against everything but Nemesis Robots and Rularu, and those two groups are just as tough on everyone but Illusion. You don't have to use frostbite on top of your slick. If some other controller is immobilizing over it, he's probably got another control going that lets him get away with that. If no one is dieing, it's not a big deal.
To me Ice/Storm and Grav/Storm were effortless and very effective. Fire/Storm I had difficulties with because the endurance usage is so High I was always out of end before the mobs were dead.
Grav/Storm has a lot of synergy. First, Grav's HOLDS do have -kb. Second, the lack of -kb in the immobs can let you keep enemies trapped in Freezing Rain, flopping around; try that with an immob that has -KB and they can shoot back if they aren't mezzed. Third, Wormhole + Thunder Clap can Stun even multiple Bosses before they can even try to attack.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
I really want a controller with storm as a secondary...I just...can't seem to pick a good one...
They're all good with Storm for the most part.
I like Plant/Storm as my favorite, though.
To the OP: Each one will have a different playstyle, so I would recommend trying some of them or go with concept. You won't go wrong with any of those combos.
My current favorite is plant/storm. He has great damage great controls, lots of fun tools from storm.
And....CARRION CREEPERS!!!! as an added bonus they sound like Godzilla.
Thanks for all the replies.
So, when soloing as a Ice/Storm, do you typically want to setup containment or do you ice slick+ FR?
I am just trying to figure out the usefulness of the AOE Immobilize for the set.
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Thanks for all the replies.
So, when soloing as a Ice/Storm, do you typically want to setup containment or do you ice slick+ FR?
I am just trying to figure out the usefulness of the AOE Immobilize for the set.
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First, Ice/Storm is a pretty low damage set in lower levels. I set mine up to be able to solo, but I still avoided it whenever possible. To solo, I used Chilblain slotted up as a damage power. I would typically use Block of Ice-Chilblain, and then add in Air Superiority and vet attacks if I was in melee.
There really are no AoE damage powers unless you use major numbers of damage procs. Getting Jack Frost, Tornado and Lightning Storm made going solo OK, but it is still a better character on teams.
If you really want to go solo, you can put procs in Arctic Air (3 will go in it, but I use 2 as I didn't want to give up the utility of the power), Freezing Rain, Frostbite and Chilblain, and a few other powers. I use the Chance for Hold in Lightning Storm, which I love.
Solo, I mostly lead off with Ice Slick or Freezing Rain, then move in to control with AA, fire off Lightning Storm, and then, with some assistance from Jack, I take down the foes one by one with BoI-Chilblain-Ice Blast. If I want to do AoE damage, I'll throw out Frostbite and then Ice Storm and Tornado and Frostbreath. Ice Storm and Frostbreath get some benefit from Containment, but Tornado does not (it is considered a pet).
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
hehe yeah I gotta opt in for plant/storm (when do i not ), hey i like it.
However, on that list, Fire/storm would be pretty darn fun actually. I prefer immobilizes that hold mobs down while tornado smashes away at them.
Combat Kangaroos, Justice Server. First 50's
Jirra Roo Plant/Storm/Stone/Musculature Controller
Combat Kangaroo Rifle/Energy/Mace/Spiritual Blaster
Kung Fu Kangaroo Martial Arts/Reflexes/Body/Spiritual Scrapper
Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
How durable is Jack? Not something I have seen discussed much.
I am thinking of just trying both Grav/Storm and Ice/Storm.
Quick Earth question: Is Earthquake really needed (or quicksand for that matter)? With Stone Cages + Stalagmites seems like it is not really needed.
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How durable is Jack? Not something I have seen discussed much.
I am thinking of just trying both Grav/Storm and Ice/Storm.
Quick Earth question: Is Earthquake really needed (or quicksand for that matter)? With Stone Cages + Stalagmites seems like it is not really needed.
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I can't help with the Ice/Jack question but....
I have an earth/storm that is lvl 32 atm. I like all the powers in Earth Control's set; however, the PBAoE sleep (salt crystals?) is not that great/much use (from my experience). Quicksand does a good defense debuff for all mobs that are in the area. Earthquake also does -def to mobs (as well as -tohit). Local_Man has an Earth/Rad guide and I read most of it, and would agree that if you do go with Earth/Storm, you could do Earthquake + Freezing Rain and wouldn't need/shouldn't use the AoE immob because then mobs will be able to retaliate against you instead of flopping around. But I still do it (depends on the team/whatever)...
Earth/Storm can be really fun (and graphically/audio instensive though 
)
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Jack is OK when solo but in the late, high end game he's kind of lacking when in big teams facing big mobs like in the iTF.
Reason is that he has a slow aura that attracts aggro. That is nice except he gets cut down pretty fast then when trapped in big mobs, which tends to happen alot in the late game. I think Animated Stone is a tougher pet. Out of the pets I've seen so far, I'd rank them in this order:
1. & 2. Singularity and Phantasm (tie)
3. Dark Servant (defender/MM, but it's really good)
4. Animated Stone
5. Confused 'pets'
6. Jack Frost
7. Fire Imps
Dunno about the fly trap thingy. Never really paid attention to it. WS fluffies I have no clue either. I guess if you have perma PA that would be the best though. I suppose I have a preference for ranged pets since they tend to last longer in iTF and ship raids, where meleeing is suicidal unless you have a high def or resist.
If they beefed up Jack's defense or added some S/L resist I'd like him a lot more. As it stands oftentimes I can cast him and watch him get dropped after he cycles an attack or two (usually because he'll run right in).
I would make a long post about the benefits of a mind/storm controller, but it doesn't seem to be in your shortlist :-)
Ice Control is very hard to describe. I've aired some dissatisfaction with it in the past, but over time have come to accept it as it is.
Unlike most Control sets, Ice is centered around the idea that you will lower but not eliminate incoming damage. The -Recharge available in many powers is a primary, not secondary, ability. By flooring the recharge of enemies, in theory you can reduce their rate of fire down to 1/4th its normal value. I say "in theory" because the first round of attacks is not affected by -Recharge at all, so the only time you see any effect is if a creature actually lives long enough to use one of its powers a second time.
The good news about Ice is Arctic Air. This is hands down the best power in the set, if not outright the best control power in the entire game. Unlike other "slow patch" style powers, Arctic Air has a fear component to it that makes foes sloooowly run away from you, all the while forced to make defense rolls against Confusion. This may sound a lot like Hot Feet but in practice its nothing like it all. For example, it draws aggro much less frequently, and since it is a control power rather than a damage power, greatly lowers risk even when you do get attacked. That said, the single biggest risk to an Ice controller is getting stunned, slept, or held and dropping Arctic Air. Having the power suddenly drop can turn what seemed like an easy fight into a near-instant death.
Ice/Storm specifically can do very well but there are some areas I can see that might be troublesome. Foremost is the fact that for most Ice Controllers, a great deal of priority is put on keeping things close to you, where Storm tends to knock them away. The second potential issue is both the lack of a self-heal (unlike Empathy, Thermal, Radiation) and lack of reliable self-protection from mezzes (unlike Sonic, Force Field). Surviving solo will require developing a strategy that lowers incoming damage considerably; luckily Storm has powers like Freezing Rain to alternate with Ice Slick.
On my Ice/Storm I didn't pick up the AoE immobilize till 30. For solo I would Freezing Rain + Ice Slick, then hold and kill them one at a time. If you intend to solo an Ice controller a lot, you may look into the sleep power. It's not handy on teams, but not bad for solo. You will want Chillblain slotted for damage and/or a pool attack in addition to the veteran attacks until you get Jack. Once you have Tornado, solo gets pretty fast, and in the 40s it's very fast. I went with Shiver over Arctic Air, because Storm is an end hog and I prefer to play very aggressively. Arctic Air is very endurance intensive so you need to plan around it.
Jack isn't very tough, but he hits pretty hard. I'm considering going with the fast recharging pet set for him for the 10% resist IO in it. He can stand up to a boss, or a couple Lts, or a few minions, but not a big crowd.
I am trying to put together an Earth/Thermal build, but I am having trouble getting every power that I want.
As an Earth controller what powers should I skip (I am skipping the sleep for sure)?
Also, are there any powers I should skip in thermal (other than something like the rez)? They all seem like they need to be taken.
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How durable is Jack? Not something I have seen discussed much.
I am thinking of just trying both Grav/Storm and Ice/Storm.
Quick Earth question: Is Earthquake really needed (or quicksand for that matter)? With Stone Cages + Stalagmites seems like it is not really needed.
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For questions about the Earth set, take a look at my guide, linked in my sig. It has TONS of info on the Earth primary.
Earth has three AoE control options -- that is part of what makes it so good. One is Stalagmites+Stone Cages . . . but Stalagmites is on the same kind of timer as Flashfire, so it takes a while. Two is Earthquake -- very effective against most foes, and is often effective against much higher level foes. Third is Volcanic Gasses -- arguably the best AoE hold in the game, but also on a long timer.
Quicksand is glue that holds them all together -- I cast QS under each of the above three and find other uses for it. It has a HUGE 25% Defense Debuff -- it is worth using just for that. But QS also catches any foes missed by your AoEs, and makes it easy for your teammates to keep the foes grouped for AoE attacks.
Again, take a look at my guide for a lot of strategy tips for using the Earth set.
Jack is more durable than imps or Twoey (Venus Fly Trap), less durable than Rocky, Phantasm or Singy. He adds decent damage, some slow and a hold, all of which are very helpful.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I am trying to put together an Earth/Thermal build, but I am having trouble getting every power that I want.
As an Earth controller what powers should I skip (I am skipping the sleep for sure)?
Also, are there any powers I should skip in thermal (other than something like the rez)? They all seem like they need to be taken.
[/ QUOTE ]
On Earth, you can skip Salt Crystals and Stone Prison if you plan to team mostly. Stone Prison is really needed as a damage power if you try to solo.
Can't help you with Thermal, as I haven't played it very high.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
[ QUOTE ]
Ice/Storm specifically can do very well but there are some areas I can see that might be troublesome. Foremost is the fact that for most Ice Controllers, a great deal of priority is put on keeping things close to you, where Storm tends to knock them away. The second potential issue is both the lack of a self-heal (unlike Empathy, Thermal, Radiation) and lack of reliable self-protection from mezzes (unlike Sonic, Force Field). Surviving solo will require developing a strategy that lowers incoming damage considerably; luckily Storm has powers like Freezing Rain to alternate with Ice Slick.
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I had little problem with knocking things away, as I use Hurricane only situationally. Cul de Sacs, corners, some positioning and panic button moments are when I used it, or if we needed some major ToHit debuffing. I almost never use Gale and didn't bother to slot it with a second Acc, which would be needed to make regular use of the power. Yeah Lightning Storm would knock things away on occasion, but with the chance for Hold proc in there, the foes knocked away were sometimes held, so not a problem.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
An Earth/Thermal build I might use is posted below. Powers skipped are Stone Prison, Salt Crystals, and Power of the Phoenix (cute trick but WAY endurance heavy and 5 minute recharge). The key here is to get Stalagmites and Earthquake as early as possible. Plasma Shield, unfortunately, is delayed until 22 with this build, but you will hopefully make up for that with more reliable controls.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fossilize -- (A)
Level 1: Warmth -- (A)
Level 2: Thermal Shield -- (A)
Level 4: Stone Cages -- (A)
Level 6: Quicksand -- (A)
Level 8: Swift OR Hurdle -- (A)
Level 10: (Travel Prereq) -- (A)
Level 12: Stalagmites -- (A)
Level 14: (Travel Power) -- (A)
Level 16: Health -- (A)
Level 18: Earthquake -- (A)
Level 20: Stamina -- (A)
Level 22: Plasma Shield -- (A)
Level 24: Thaw -- (A)
Level 26: Volcanic Gasses -- (A)
Level 28: Forge -- (A)
Level 30: Cauterize -- (A)
Level 32: Animate Stone -- (A)
Level 35: Heat Exhaustion -- (A)
Level 38: Melt Armor -- (A)
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
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I am wanting to start a new controller and the choices for me are Ice, Gravity, or Fire. My secondary will be Storm.
Ice: I cannot "figure out" ice. It gives great tools (AOE immobilize, ice slick, AA, etc), but there is no synergy. All the CCs completely negate Ice Slick because they prevent the mobs from falling down. Obviously at low levels with minimal slotting Ice Slick will be my primary CC, but how exactly do Ice Controllers actually CONTROL at high levels?
Gravity: Gravity has everything I want in a powerset. Ghetto Hold, some damage to pass the time away, tough pet...BUT the CCs do NOT prevent knockback. With Hurricane I want to slighly move immobilized mobs, not blow them away. Also, Tornado has no synergy with this line, which is a big turn off when soloing. I would not even be making this post if Gravity's controls prevented KB.
Fire: Fire actually has all the tools I want (ghetto hold, some damage, etc), but I am not sold on Fire Imps (for PvE or PvP). They just seem really fragile to me.
Please help me decide on one of these. A good discussion of the pros and cons of each set would be appreciated.
(Under the slim chance I roll an Earth Controller, which abilities should I not take? I am assuming Salt Crystals is one, but all the others actually look pretty good.)