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This isn't a smart-azz question.
I am trying to figure out what makes them so super-uber that they require a "kryptonite" npc (aka quantum and voids) with "I win" button weapons ... especially at the lower levels.
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Honestly, Warshades are incredibly backloaded in power. At L14 you're trying to figure out how to handle the extra minion with the void gun.
At L50, you're kind of a wrecking ball.
I made a video a while ago of me vs 5-man unyielding nemesis spawns. And admittedly, Nemesis are easy mode, but even so, a 5-man unyielding spawn every 19 seconds is pretty solid. I've come very close to beating the "Scrapper Challenge" in RWZ with my Warshade (which is defeating a L54 spawn with at least 2 bosses, at least one of which can Mez, without the use of inspirations or things like Shivans.) (Another Warshade HAS done it; at the time I was trying, I didn't have Nebulous Form, which he used to pre-herd the mobs together)
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Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo.
It's that simple. Teamed up on an 8-man, kheldians are the most powerful AT in the game PERIOD. Solo, they aren't much more powerful than defenders.
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Whaa...usually I'm a huge booster of Khelds, their my main and favorite AT but even I can't stand for this statement. For one, I don't back the Khelds doing more for an 8 man team then the VEATs. Two there is now way a Kheld is worse soloing then a Defender even Pre-I13. Veats just got more with their Leadership, pets, buffs/debuffs then the Khelds, who really don't give much to the team other then another hammer to hit the enemy. As for soloing, you'd be calling up an optimum build Defender and even then if the Khelds at worst are comparable I would be straight dumbfounded.
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Teamed VEATS > Widows > Kheldians Teamed > Soldiers > Kheldians Solo.
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I fixed that for you.
Wow, I must be playing my PB wrong, because it isn't as uber as what people are talking about here.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
Voids and Quants become trivial depending on your build, and they do so very quickly.
Cysts however, can go straight to hell forever. They're not just a problem for you, but a problem for your entire team. There's nothing like having brawl pinned because of the slows.
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Wow, I must be playing my PB wrong, because it isn't as uber as what people are talking about here.
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It's a high probablilty that you are extremely correct.
| Issue 9 Fly poses | IO's and ED
| Cycling the Combat Monitor | Load Macros from a Text File |
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[ QUOTE ]
Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo.
It's that simple. Teamed up on an 8-man, kheldians are the most powerful AT in the game PERIOD. Solo, they aren't much more powerful than defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whaa...usually I'm a huge booster of Khelds, their my main and favorite AT but even I can't stand for this statement. For one, I don't back the Khelds doing more for an 8 man team then the VEATs. Two there is now way a Kheld is worse soloing then a Defender even Pre-I13. Veats just got more with their Leadership, pets, buffs/debuffs then the Khelds, who really don't give much to the team other then another hammer to hit the enemy. As for soloing, you'd be calling up an optimum build Defender and even then if the Khelds at worst are comparable I would be straight dumbfounded.
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Sorry you disagree, but I've found khelds to be extremely powerful in PvP and PvE on teams and kinda wimpy solo. All the leadership buffs from VEATS don't matter when a) recharge is being debuffed or b) when all the enemy's def is being debuffed. I had my Human Only PB on an 8 man team once, all blasters/scrappers/a tank and me. I was the 'healer' with glowing touch. We PWNED the entire mish, and yes, I kept EVERYONE alive.
YMMV...but I stand by my statement:
Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo
but I'll add one more piece:
Kheldians Teamed with VEATS >> Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS Teamed >> VEATS solo >> Kheldians Solo
A solo VEAT is stronger than a solo Kheld.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo.
It's that simple. Teamed up on an 8-man, kheldians are the most powerful AT in the game PERIOD. Solo, they aren't much more powerful than defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whaa...usually I'm a huge booster of Khelds, their my main and favorite AT but even I can't stand for this statement. For one, I don't back the Khelds doing more for an 8 man team then the VEATs. Two there is now way a Kheld is worse soloing then a Defender even Pre-I13. Veats just got more with their Leadership, pets, buffs/debuffs then the Khelds, who really don't give much to the team other then another hammer to hit the enemy. As for soloing, you'd be calling up an optimum build Defender and even then if the Khelds at worst are comparable I would be straight dumbfounded.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry you disagree, but I've found khelds to be extremely powerful in PvP and PvE on teams and kinda wimpy solo. All the leadership buffs from VEATS don't matter when a) recharge is being debuffed or b) when all the enemy's def is being debuffed. I had my Human Only PB on an 8 man team once, all blasters/scrappers/a tank and me. I was the 'healer' with glowing touch. We PWNED the entire mish, and yes, I kept EVERYONE alive.
YMMV...but I stand by my statement:
Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo
but I'll add one more piece:
Kheldians Teamed with VEATS >> Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS Teamed >> VEATS solo >> Kheldians Solo
A solo VEAT is stronger than a solo Kheld.
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Anecdotal evidence is just that--anecdotal. Because you managed to keep a team alive with Glowing Touch doesn't mean Kheldians do more for teams than do VEATs. Perhaps the Tanker on the team was strong and experienced? Or maybe the Scrappers (like most Scrappers) were self-sufficient and all of those melee characters kept the enemies off the Blasters so they didn't die either. Maybe your team just had enough damage to destroy the mobs before they got a proper chance to react? No, I'm sure the team was saved solely by virtue of your Glowing Touch.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kheldians Teamed >> VEATS >> Kheldians Solo.
It's that simple. Teamed up on an 8-man, kheldians are the most powerful AT in the game PERIOD. Solo, they aren't much more powerful than defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whaa...usually I'm a huge booster of Khelds, their my main and favorite AT but even I can't stand for this statement. For one, I don't back the Khelds doing more for an 8 man team then the VEATs. Two there is now way a Kheld is worse soloing then a Defender even Pre-I13. Veats just got more with their Leadership, pets, buffs/debuffs then the Khelds, who really don't give much to the team other then another hammer to hit the enemy. As for soloing, you'd be calling up an optimum build Defender and even then if the Khelds at worst are comparable I would be straight dumbfounded.
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This
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A solo VEAT is stronger than a solo Kheld.
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Tell that to my squishy-as-hell Bane. For a melee character, it might as well be a Defender.
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...and kinda wimpy solo...
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If you truly believe this, then your understanding of the AT is not complete. Just sayin'...
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Sorry you disagree, but I've found khelds to be extremely powerful in PvP and PvE on teams and kinda wimpy solo. All the leadership buffs from VEATS don't matter when a) recharge is being debuffed or b) when all the enemy's def is being debuffed.
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VEATS get -recharge resistance, and so much +defense, that -defense powers will most likely not hit. If they do, Widows have some -defense resistance. Don't know why Soldiers don't, but that's something the devs can answer.
Not to mention all the damage, pets and controls they bring, the enemy wont even get much of a chance to attack.
The Leadership powers are toggles anyway, so if a VEAT had no -recharge resistance, then they would still function.
Teamed VEATS>>>>>>>>>Teamed HEATS
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Well, teamed-up on an 8-man team (not an All-Kheldian team), I've always felt extremely powerful, even before I13 actually.
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Definitely! Without question! I love my little purple killer and his fluffy little brothers.
But to go so far as saying that the Khelds are the most powerful AT while teamed is quite a reach... especially with such a questionable term like "powerful" in reference to a MMO character.
Now... the statement about not being much better than Defenders?? I think we ALL can agree someone was on crack when they said that junk. 
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I'd say the two canidates for "most powerful 8 man team" are 8 thug/any-mix-of-secondary masterminds or 8 VEATs qualify as THE most powerful 8 man teams, with all controller/defender teams also ranking up there. 8 man scrapper teams though... Mmmm, blender.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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A solo VEAT is stronger than a solo Kheld.
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I think I have to disagree here. I find my warshade does better solo then my wolf spider. At level 20 my warshade had become almost unstoppable solo, and quantum guns stopped bothering me unless I failed to spot it first.
At level 20 my wolf spider feels very squishy. I have lowish defense to melee, and everything likes to run up and smack me in melee. Even the guys with bows. And my ranged defense keeps getting trivialized by the FREQUENT longbow missions.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I've played all 4 type VEATs to 30, and all but Bane to 50. I love my Crab and Fort and have them heavily IO'd as I do my PB and WS. Of course it all comes down to opinion and so forth but Soloing each of them I found them all comparable with the slight difference that PB and WS, especially Tri-Form, Solo a bit faster and are a bit more survivable. A bit varies by enemy groups and levels, as some groups lower either HEAT or VEAT survivability, and level is a huge difference because when a Tri-Form passes +30 they out and out overpower the enemies faster then the VEATs. A Human only WS can pretty much maintain the difference while a Human only PB is slightly lease efficient. Still, Khelds Solo better then VEATs, and far, far better then Defenders on average.
yea, I know. Crabs solo pretty well. It's just the struggle to reach 24 with all those dang longbow missions shutting down your (admittedly crappy) defenses.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
I haven't played VEATs yet, but seriously? If they are any better than Khelds, then it should be really easy to go from first to fiftieth. I've never had a problem soloing my WS, and in groups I own. I guess I'll go roll up a VEAT and see how good it is.
VEATs have some really freaking nice things. A damaging form of poison gas arrow (grenade in this case), an aoe imobilize+recharge debuff, good aoe damage (crab spider), and discounted end cost leadership that can be stacked with the leadership power pool if desired? Sign me up!
That said, spiders have it rough until the auto respec at 24. With SO's in both their baked in maneuvers and defensive training they have 25% defense to ranged, and 15% defense to everything else. They also have no def debuff resistance, so their prone to cascading defense failure. Especially against longbow.
Spiders also have only one really useful aoe damage dealer that they get at low enough levels to really help out for the grind to 24. Beyond that, they get a couple melee attacks, a couple single target attacks... Wolf spiders are rather underwhelming. Since so many things love charging into melee or using aoe's, they get ripped to shreds often for the first 23 levels. That's where their defenses are thinnest.
Wolf spiders are still fun, but I'd suggest staying on the first difficulty. They have trouble with many bosses pre-24.
Widows though... Man oh man oh man are they good. Same defense issues, but they actually kill things faster so it's less of an issue.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
My lvl 44 Crab is a beast He's my Mastermind AOE blaster than can actually take a lot of hits. I still have yet to lvl a widow or a bane OR a pb but all i have to say is so far...I love the EATS. Yes in the mid thirties my WS is unfair.
I was in an AE mish the other day and ended up being the tank and the damage dealer. Unchain essence, Quasar and the fluffies are just...not ...fair.
Sometimes Khelds just seem like powerhouses on large teams. Was just casually soloing recently when I got a tell, 'Hey, can you please help with an AV?'. Now usually such tells means a team needs more DPS, and they're usually looking for a Scrapper/Blaster/DPSer, but I was the one that got the tell, so, my curiosity perked, I accepted.
Entered mish and immediatly got teleported to Team, where they were fighting Dominatrix ( I think that's her name). I rush in and start waylaying. In a couple of minutes she's gone from full health to dead. The team's thanking me profusely and thru more chatting I find they've been fighting her 30+ minutes.
Now, I know my damage was just that extra straw needed to overcome the AVs regen, but even so, for one extra teammate to make an AV fall in a few minutes whereas before they coudn't budge her...well, I felt powerful!
They asked me to help continue. We're decimating all the mobs really quickly, then we find Marauder and down him in no time... and halfway thru that fight the Tanker left, I guess to round up other mobs for himself, leaving me to as the primary aggro receiver from Marauder (and I'm human only haha). I stood toe-to-toe and we downed him.
Yep, Khelds = Super-Uber
I remember when I first made a PB. I was about level 15, and got invited to a team. It was another PB making an all-Kheld team. It was me, a couple PBs, and a couple warshades.
It was not fun. Having so few slots in powers that early on, and no buffs from teammates, along with more voids and quantums, made for a lot of faceplants.
Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break
The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens
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This isn't a smart-azz question.
I am trying to figure out what makes them so super-uber that they require a "kryptonite" npc (aka quantum and voids) with "I win" button weapons ... especially at the lower levels.
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The most accurate answer is: they don't. Which is why the (current) devs made Q damage resistable (it was unresistable originally).
The original/middle years dev team had some strange ideas. Kheldians were introduced in I3 when people were running around with perma-tier 9s and solo herding/killing whole maps with 8-man spawns even w/out tier 9s (no aggro caps or mob-stacking prevention). In spite of this, the devs said they didn't want khelds to be "tank-mages" and designed the ATs with multiple overlapping weaknesses, both internal and external.
IMO it was a bloody obvious case of overkill. The current dev team must agree, because now we have resistible Q damage, Inherent applying in forms, and break-free-dwarf. The only thing I'm still wishing for is human Auto powers applied in forms.
I don't think quants were ever THAT serious of a threat. Even before nictus damage was resistable you just had to pay attention. Sure taking one out at low levels usually involved popping a luck or two, and maybe a couple enrages. But inspirations too are part of strategy. The only time a quant or void is really a 'kryptonite' is if it's a boss. And that's mainly due to boss level damage plus boss level nictus damage.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I remember when I first made a PB. I was about level 15, and got invited to a team. It was another PB making an all-Kheld team. It was me, a couple PBs, and a couple warshades.
It was not fun. Having so few slots in powers that early on, and no buffs from teammates, along with more voids and quantums, made for a lot of faceplants.
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That may have changed post I13. Q&V don't quite as much damage as they used to and Khelds do more now. But I've found the best all Kheld teaming happens after 20 anyways, when the possibility of all 3 Forms comes into play.
[ QUOTE ]
This isn't a smart-azz question.
I am trying to figure out what makes them so super-uber that they require a "kryptonite" npc (aka quantum and voids) with "I win" button weapons ... especially at the lower levels.
[/ QUOTE ]They aren't, they don't, and they don't.