Superadine: negative effects.

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Anyone remember, I think his name was, Doug the Troll?

[/ QUOTE ]Now that you mention him, yeah.

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You don't think being a hallucinogen and highly addictive are negative effects?
Also, it's obvious that Dyne suppresses female hormones/increases male hormones, as evidenced by the fact that you never find any apparently female Trolls
/em tinfoilhat

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Oh, dere girl-trolls.

Now.. what you say bout troll talk? All me saw was big words. Like to choppa.

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Not all of them are so big and ineloquent.
I just presumed that maybe the superadine-induced transformation into a Troll is fatal most of the time for women.

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Some of them, however, are still pretty big and still pretty eloquent

On the subject of Superadyne, the negative effects are very, very clear mutation, significant brain degradation to the point of induced schizophrenia, uncontrollabe rage and heavy, heavy addiction and dependence. While there isn't any evidence of it, I would say it's pretty safe to say that extreme cases can lead to complete breakdown of vital functions as the body is pushed beyond all limits of safety and reason.

We know even perfectly normal humans are capable of extreme feats of burst strength, enough to snap handcuff chains and break bones, when under the influence of certain drugs. The result of this, however, is that these people do extreme damage to themselves in the process, tearing muscles, dislocating joints and at times even breaking their own bones from the strain. Even if we assume that the Troll's greater muscle and bone density coupled with their increased metabolism and regeneration can protect them from that, the fact that they are essentially constantly raving madmen with no regard for personal injury, as well as constantly mutating further and further, it's not that big of a stretch to claim that this would leave them as a complete and utter mess after several years of it. After all, we've seen what happens to the bodies of professional athletes after years of riding them hard.

I'm not sure you'll find many evidence of the negative effects of Superadyne in fiction, largely because it hasn't been explored much, but you can always play with the limits, exaggerate, stretch and colour up a bit to come up with pretty frightening implications. Personally, that's what I find to be half the fun of writing fiction - taking given situations and finding ways to escalate them without contradicting anything

I'm not sure what "pure" superadine the family are using, but I'm pretty sure Underbosses and Consiglierie are described as having "minor super powers," which is what allowed raise in the Family hierarchy. I'm not sure there is canon evidence to the Family ever taking drugs, themselves (at least not Superadyne) and instead keep largely to shoguns and tommyguns.

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This thread opens an important question in my mind: is Kermit the Frog a recovering dyne addict?

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We know even perfectly normal humans are capable of extreme feats of burst strength, enough to snap handcuff chains and break bones...

[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't take all that much force to break a bone. It depends on which bone, of course, but they're hardly the strongest thing on earth

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

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We know even perfectly normal humans are capable of extreme feats of burst strength, enough to snap handcuff chains and break bones...

[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't take all that much force to break a bone. It depends on which bone, of course, but they're hardly the strongest thing on earth

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Break their own bones is what (I think) I meant. I actually had a friend who claimed he'd seen (or had heard of) a man who snapped a pretty sturdy steel bed frame rail with his hand in such a situation.

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This thread opens an important question in my mind: is Kermit the Frog a recovering dyne addict?

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Not unless you've seen him actually in the game or have proof that hes used inter-dimentional travel between our world and the COH Universe.

Proof of existence in the game means he exists on both planes as an alternate form, otherwise inter-dimensional travel is the only other option.

Unless you go for the argument 'its just a game', in which case it would take a petition to the devs for coding to get him in. In this argument he would have no exposure to the drug therefore he isn't.

However, one could argue that he originated in the COH universe and now exists in ours. Well, COH as a game didn't exist until 4 years ago so... thats unlikely since Kermit has been around for decades.

Now if you argue that the COH universe exists and the game data is just a conduit to that world and Kermit slipped out before our knowledge allowed us into it ... then I've got nothing.

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Well, when you consider the dimension-swapping capabilities of Dyne, plus the whole new time-travel aspect of Ouroborus: Kermit is part of a new breed of Trolls who got off Dyne, went back in time (to before CoH was technically 'born') and then swapped to our universe.

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I'm not sure what "pure" superadine the family are using, but I'm pretty sure Underbosses and Consiglierie are described as having "minor super powers," which is what allowed raise in the Family hierarchy. I'm not sure there is canon evidence to the Family ever taking drugs, themselves (at least not Superadyne) and instead keep largely to shoguns and tommyguns.

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Information about pure and uncut strains of superadine can be found in Top Secret: the Family.

"Melchionni also claimed that Sebastian ordered his chemists to create two very different strains of Superadine. There was the “pure” line, closest to the original serum, which was kept strictly for made-men of The Family. As his men earned each promotion they would be rewarded with stronger doses, increasing their super-powered abilities. His bosses are nearly as powerful as Sebastian himself.

And there was the “cut” strain, which was also much more addictive. This street version of the drug was seeded throughout several street gangs. Those who overdosed became the first of the Trolls, and some say Sebastian turned one of his childhood friends into the first Troll. This rumor is uncorroborated, however. It is clear that The Family deals to other groups like the Skulls, although how much influence The Family has over these street gangs is unclear."

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It is better to ask forgiveness than permission.

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You don't think being a hallucinogen and highly addictive are negative effects?


Also, it's obvious that Dyne suppresses female hormones/increases male hormones, as evidenced by the fact that you never find any apparently female Trolls
/em tinfoilhat

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Don't highly advanced types of Trolls lose the ability to mate?

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The comparison to steroid abuse seems so prevalent that seems like a safe assumption.

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The PPD breifing on Trolls seems to point that way.

"Trolls believe strongly in survival of the fittest. The junior members are known respectively as Trollkin, Jutal, Gardvord, Ogre, and Caliban. The highest ranking Trolls have mutated into grotesque abominations – they have horns, bulge with oversized muscles, and are relatively sexless."

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It is better to ask forgiveness than permission.

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Information about pure and uncut strains of superadine can be found in Top Secret: the Family.

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Wow... First time I've seen this section... I have some reading to do!

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Information about pure and uncut strains of superadine can be found in Top Secret: the Family.

"Melchionni also claimed that Sebastian ordered his chemists to create two very different strains of Superadine. There was the “pure” line, closest to the original serum, which was kept strictly for made-men of The Family. As his men earned each promotion they would be rewarded with stronger doses, increasing their super-powered abilities. His bosses are nearly as powerful as Sebastian himself.

And there was the “cut” strain, which was also much more addictive. This street version of the drug was seeded throughout several street gangs. Those who overdosed became the first of the Trolls, and some say Sebastian turned one of his childhood friends into the first Troll. This rumor is uncorroborated, however. It is clear that The Family deals to other groups like the Skulls, although how much influence The Family has over these street gangs is unclear."

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NICE! Thanks for the link.

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Well, when you consider the dimension-swapping capabilities of Dyne, plus the whole new time-travel aspect of Ouroborus: Kermit is part of a new breed of Trolls who got off Dyne, went back in time (to before CoH was technically 'born') and then swapped to our universe.

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This potentially means Miss Piggy is a Nemesis plot.

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This thread opens an important question in my mind: is Kermit the Frog a recovering dyne addict?

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One of the contacts, possibly David Wincott, points out that there is no recovering from a 'Dyne addiction. Once you're hooked, you're hooked for life. Also, Kermit is much more coherent than any Troll.

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This thread opens an important question in my mind: is Kermit the Frog a recovering dyne addict?

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One of the contacts, possibly David Wincott, points out that there is no recovering from a 'Dyne addiction. Once you're hooked, you're hooked for life. Also, Kermit is much more coherent than any Troll.

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But he does have a rage problem.

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On the subject of Superadyne, the negative effects are very, very clear mutation, significant brain degradation to the point of induced schizophrenia, uncontrollabe rage and heavy, heavy addiction and dependence. While there isn't any evidence of it, I would say it's pretty safe to say that extreme cases can lead to complete breakdown of vital functions as the body is pushed beyond all limits of safety and reason.

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I'm curious where you're getting a diagnosis of schizophrenia from. While I will give you that the Trolls show heavy evidence of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia (though they tend to lack hallucinations and tend to tend more towards delusions), they don't really demonstrate all of the negative symptoms: blunted affect, anhedonia, asociality, and avolition. Trolls actually show heightened affect even when in non-stressful and non-negative situations, demonstrate a great joy in base pleasures (breaking stuff), actively seek out others of their kinds, and are motivated enough to actually initialized gang wars.

I'd actually be curious to figure out what long term exposure to Superadine does, aside from the Troll mutation. Would it actually impede functionality as the body comes to depend on the additional benefits of the Superadine to perform normal operations (re: stop building muscles because the 'dyne makes weak muscles strong enough)? Would it simply cause diminishing effects as the body built up a tolerance to the granted superpowers? Would it actually cause an higher levels of the superpowers because your body has developed a tolerance (and is also supernaturally resilience thanks to the 'dyne) and can now handle larger quantities of the drug? Any of those could lead to some very interesting story lines.

Also, as a random side question, considering the relationship between humans and the Rikti, what would happen if a Rikti took 'dyne? What would happen if a Rikti OD'd on 'dyne? What would happen to a Troll subjected to the Rikti alteration process?

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You don't think being a hallucinogen and highly addictive are negative effects?
Also, it's obvious that Dyne suppresses female hormones/increases male hormones, as evidenced by the fact that you never find any apparently female Trolls
/em tinfoilhat

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Oh, dere girl-trolls.

Now.. what you say bout troll talk? All me saw was big words. Like to choppa.

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Not all of them are so big and ineloquent.
I just presumed that maybe the superadine-induced transformation into a Troll is fatal most of the time for women.

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Some of them, however, are still pretty big and still pretty eloquent

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Tanya Atta wants to know why all you silly Trolls are running around with weapons instead of just bashing people with your fists!

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Ok, at this point it seems like we need to toss out 'brain damage' from the list of negative effects of Superadine. Consigliere's use Superadine and are considered top advisors in their organizations.

It seems all the 'troll' effects of Superadine are limited to the 'unrefined' version? If that's the case, what are the effects of the 'refined' version? Is there an actual difference between the two or is it more an issue of moderation?

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It seems all the 'troll' effects of Superadine are limited to the 'unrefined' version? If that's the case, what are the effects of the 'refined' version? Is there an actual difference between the two or is it more an issue of moderation?

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Actually, because the Troll mutation has been canonically stated as being due to an overdose, I'm reasonably sure that the Family is capable of having their higher ups using the drugs simply by being stingy. It also begs the question of what the Family cuts the impure 'dyne with. Is it a traditional mind-altering street drug, which could possibly explain the affects of the Troll mutation on cognition and psyche, or is it something even cheaper (like milk powder, baking powder, etc. with cocaine).

Something else I just thought up is what if Superadine doesn't actually have a direct effect upon the mind of the subject. It could be that whatever substance the Family cuts their street 'dyne with has the mental effects, making it physically addictive and mind-altering. Another possible effect of this would be that the pure Superadine that the Family uses might not actually have any risk of OD'ing (you get tougher and more able to resist it the more you do, making it impossible to actually overdose), and it's the interaction of the chemicals in street Superadine, both the pure substance and impure substances used to cut it, that actually cause the Troll mutation.

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Actually, because the Troll mutation has been canonically stated as being due to an overdose, I'm reasonably sure that the Family is capable of having their higher ups using the drugs simply by being stingy. It also begs the question of what the Family cuts the impure 'dyne with. Is it a traditional mind-altering street drug, which could possibly explain the affects of the Troll mutation on cognition and psyche, or is it something even cheaper (like milk powder, baking powder, etc. with cocaine).


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While the cutting agent seems like a really good avenue to explore, something esle occurred to me. Consigliere not only use Superadine, but it seems to have granted them powers typically associated with strong minds, usually Gravity Control (can't recall any others). Combined with the interdimensional perception in the 1%, you can almost interpret that to mean Superadine actually grants intelligence. The so called 'stupidity of trolls' could be an overdose of brain power; literally frying the brain.

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Taken from the article on the main site about Trolls

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Trolls believe strongly in survival of the fittest. The junior members are known respectively as Trollkin, Jutal, Gardvord, Ogre, and Caliban. The highest ranking Trolls have mutated into grotesque abominations – they have horns, bulge with oversized muscles, and are relatively sexless.

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Admittedly this HAS changed...I remember them saying that the Superdyne actually changed women to be indistinguishable from males at any level of mutation.

However in this light it would appear only higher ranks, Supa-Troll, are sexless.

For all your Troll based needs

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Actually, because the Troll mutation has been canonically stated as being due to an overdose, I'm reasonably sure that the Family is capable of having their higher ups using the drugs simply by being stingy. It also begs the question of what the Family cuts the impure 'dyne with. Is it a traditional mind-altering street drug, which could possibly explain the affects of the Troll mutation on cognition and psyche, or is it something even cheaper (like milk powder, baking powder, etc. with cocaine).


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While the cutting agent seems like a really good avenue to explore, something esle occurred to me. Consigliere not only use Superadine, but it seems to have granted them powers typically associated with strong minds, usually Gravity Control (can't recall any others). Combined with the interdimensional perception in the 1%, you can almost interpret that to mean Superadine actually grants intelligence. The so called 'stupidity of trolls' could be an overdose of brain power; literally frying the brain.

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That's actually a very interesting consideration, though it would make me wonder as to why the less than boss-tier Family members don't seem to exhibit intelligence greater than normal. If it did increase intelligence and the Troll's stupidity is simply an issue of being too intelligent to actually reason (which would explain why they're capable of impressive acts of demolition even though they lack any training; they do everything based off of highly analytical instincts), then anyone else who took Superadine would show signs of heightened intelligence before they actually "went Troll". Outcasts, Skulls, Hellions, et al. haven't really been shown as more intelligent than normal and they're all 'dyne hounds.

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Also in the article it states that the troll mutation is only through 'long term abuse' the change isn't instant and by long term I'm assuming a period of six months or greater before any changes kick in.

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then anyone else who took Superadine would show signs of heightened intelligence before they actually "went Troll". Outcasts, Skulls, Hellions, et al. haven't really been shown as more intelligent than normal and they're all 'dyne hounds.

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Skulls don't take Dyne, they sell it, their powers come exclusively from the Dark Arts they're taught by the Petrovic brothers (the as yet unseen leader of the Skulls). Hellions have nothing to do with Dyne, infact they're not even part of the Dyne Cartel (which is Family, Trolls and Skulls). They're on the opposite side of a big gang war.

Hellions, Warriors and Tsoo are part of a cartel which specialise in smuggling and the abuse of powerful arcane artifacts.

The Outcasts get their power through their mutations, not through Dyne.

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That's actually a very interesting consideration, though it would make me wonder as to why the less than boss-tier Family members don't seem to exhibit intelligence greater than normal. If it did increase intelligence and the Troll's stupidity is simply an issue of being too intelligent to actually reason (which would explain why they're capable of impressive acts of demolition even though they lack any training; they do everything based off of highly analytical instincts), then anyone else who took Superadine would show signs of heightened intelligence before they actually "went Troll".

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Trolls and Family are the only groups we know to use Superadine. Unless I misunderstood, only family Bosses and some LTs use Superadine; only the ones we see using Super Strength and Gravity.

From Troll description.
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These low ranking gang members are already showing signs of changing, but they still sometimes rely on conventional weapons.

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This kind of pokes holes in my theory. I still subscribe to the idea Trolls were formerly stupid people, which one could interpret as it wouldn't take much 'Dyne to fry their brains but that's a stretch.

The cutting agent seems the more likely difference.

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I'm curious where you're getting a diagnosis of schizophrenia from. While I will give you that the Trolls show heavy evidence of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia (though they tend to lack hallucinations and tend to tend more towards delusions), they don't really demonstrate all of the negative symptoms: blunted affect, anhedonia, asociality, and avolition. Trolls actually show heightened affect even when in non-stressful and non-negative situations, demonstrate a great joy in base pleasures (breaking stuff), actively seek out others of their kinds, and are motivated enough to actually initialized gang wars.

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Admitting that I don't know half the words you used and 1 AM isn't a good time to look them up, I will freely admit I made it up. Call them stark-raving mad, instead. That's easier to find symptoms for.

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I'd actually be curious to figure out what long term exposure to Superadine does, aside from the Troll mutation. Would it actually impede functionality as the body comes to depend on the additional benefits of the Superadine to perform normal operations (re: stop building muscles because the 'dyne makes weak muscles strong enough)? Would it simply cause diminishing effects as the body built up a tolerance to the granted superpowers? Would it actually cause an higher levels of the superpowers because your body has developed a tolerance (and is also supernaturally resilience thanks to the 'dyne) and can now handle larger quantities of the drug? Any of those could lead to some very interesting story lines.

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Well, I'm no expert on the matter, but I do know that not every muscle in the body benefits from being bigger and denser. The heart, for instance, actually degrades as it enlarges. I would imagine Trolls would be at a much elevated risk of heart disease thanks to that.

Also, as most bodybuilders will probably stand to evidence, big, thick muscles aren't actually always good, and if a Troll were to stop taking Superadine, I'm sure he'd turn into a flabby mess in no time flat. The other side is normal wear and tear on the body. Mutated though their bodies may be, they're still being put through stresses that the human body was just not designed for. Even with increased regeneration and so forth, I'd imagine they'd all be suffering joint pains and bone wear. Sure, we could say that they're super soldiers, but even regular humans need to be careful what they do with their bodies. Trolls never struck me as being careful or considerate. Given that they don't seem to feel much pain and regenerate so fast, they're likely even less careful.

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I'm curious where you're getting a diagnosis of schizophrenia from. While I will give you that the Trolls show heavy evidence of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia (though they tend to lack hallucinations and tend to tend more towards delusions), they don't really demonstrate all of the negative symptoms: blunted affect, anhedonia, asociality, and avolition. Trolls actually show heightened affect even when in non-stressful and non-negative situations, demonstrate a great joy in base pleasures (breaking stuff), actively seek out others of their kinds, and are motivated enough to actually initialized gang wars.

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Admitting that I don't know half the words you used and 1 AM isn't a good time to look them up, I will freely admit I made it up. Call them stark-raving mad, instead. That's easier to find symptoms for.

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Lol. I was a psych major. Go me.

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I'd actually be curious to figure out what long term exposure to Superadine does, aside from the Troll mutation. Would it actually impede functionality as the body comes to depend on the additional benefits of the Superadine to perform normal operations (re: stop building muscles because the 'dyne makes weak muscles strong enough)? Would it simply cause diminishing effects as the body built up a tolerance to the granted superpowers? Would it actually cause an higher levels of the superpowers because your body has developed a tolerance (and is also supernaturally resilience thanks to the 'dyne) and can now handle larger quantities of the drug? Any of those could lead to some very interesting story lines.

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Well, I'm no expert on the matter, but I do know that not every muscle in the body benefits from being bigger and denser. The heart, for instance, actually degrades as it enlarges. I would imagine Trolls would be at a much elevated risk of heart disease thanks to that.

Also, as most bodybuilders will probably stand to evidence, big, thick muscles aren't actually always good, and if a Troll were to stop taking Superadine, I'm sure he'd turn into a flabby mess in no time flat. The other side is normal wear and tear on the body. Mutated though their bodies may be, they're still being put through stresses that the human body was just not designed for. Even with increased regeneration and so forth, I'd imagine they'd all be suffering joint pains and bone wear. Sure, we could say that they're super soldiers, but even regular humans need to be careful what they do with their bodies. Trolls never struck me as being careful or considerate. Given that they don't seem to feel much pain and regenerate so fast, they're likely even less careful.

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I think the big issue here is whether Superadine provides additional strength by generating more muscle mass or by simply making the muscle mass significantly strong than it should be. The comparisons to anabolic steroids (and heart damage) would only really be comparable if Superadine simply improved muscular growth and development. If it's done through super power handwaving, then it's highly doubtful.

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