Superadine: negative effects.
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2009-05-31 18:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Pound for pound, bone is stronger than concrete. It has a large amount of compressive strength along it's major axis, which is why most breaks that you see occur when something hits it hard from the side at one of the thinnest areas.
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Isn't some of the significant strength of bone also from structure not just from density? It doesn't help that bone density can vary pretty heavily depending on age, occupation, and other personal variables.
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Well, I'm no expert on the matter, but I do know that not every muscle in the body benefits from being bigger and denser. The heart, for instance, actually degrades as it enlarges. I would imagine Trolls would be at a much elevated risk of heart disease thanks to that.
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Sorry Sam. I work in health care, specifically in the field of cardiology. Heart muscles DO NOT degrade due to enlargement. An enlarged heart can (and will most likely) result in muscle degredation, but an enlarged heart does not necessarily include enlargement of the heart muscles. Enlarged hearts are usually the results of volume over loads or ischemic cardiomyopathies and usually feature thinned heart muscles.
Hypertrophy is an enlargement of muscle. The reason for the Hypertrophy is what is relevant to health. Hypertension (systemic high blood pressure) will cause cardiac muscle hypertrophy but it does not damage the heart muscle. This is healthy response by the heart muscle to hypertension, treat the hypertension and the heart muscle never suffers any damage.
The healthiest of hearts seen in top athelete's (see Athletic Heart Syndrome) actually features enlarged hearts with hypertrophied muscles.
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Also, as most bodybuilders will probably stand to evidence, big, thick muscles aren't actually always good
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This has no basis in medical science or exercise physiology. Body Building is in fact very good for you barring some underlying condition. Body building does not equal abuse of anabolic steroids. Abusing steriods has a host of consequences that result regardless of whether you ever set foot in a weight room.
Artificially enlarging your muscles with out the actual exercise will cause considerable damage, including muscle degradation. Any substances that prevents you noticing muscle strain due to over exertion would also have muscle degradation and probably torn ligaments and tendons.
EDIT: Sorry, I overlooked this bit.
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hick muscles aren't actually always good, and if a Troll were to stop taking Superadine, I'm sure he'd turn into a flabby mess in no time flat.
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This is a large misconception surrounding body builders. It is biologically impossible for muscle to turn into fat. Regardless of how the muscle mass was created, discontinuing weight lifting (or what ever insane drugs you are taking) will not cause the muscles to turn into fat.
Maintaining muscles requires more energy so the body responds by increasing your metabolism, prompting you to eat more. Irresponsible/unhealthy body building practices actually practice high calorie intakes at key times to maximize growth. If the body builder has to discontinue their routine, their metabolism will slow down. IF and I mean BIG IF, the body builder adjusted their diet to their now slowed metabolism they would never gain fat. Most of us are creatures of habit and would most likely continue to eat the same amounts of food, basically over eating thereby creating your flab.
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It depends if the hypertrophy is due to an actual increase in muscle fiber density or simply due to them filling with fluid (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy). The later one provides no increase in strength.
Also for many powerlifters (quite a bit different from bodybuilders) their increase in strength is not only from an increase in muscle fiber density but also from their nervous system adapting to activate more of those fibers at a given time.
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The highest ranking Trolls have mutated into grotesque abominations they have horns, bulge with oversized muscles, and are relatively sexless.
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in this light it would appear only higher ranks, Supa-Troll, are sexless.
[/ QUOTE ]Only the Trollkin are missing horns on their in-game models, implying that "the highest ranking Trolls" is actually referring to "Everyone but the minions", not just the Supa-Trolls.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
But do even the run-of-the-mill bosses "bulge with oversized muscles?" I'm not sure. I certainly see plenty of characters, player-made and otherwise, with larger ones.
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Sorry Sam. I work in health care, specifically in the field of cardiology. Heart muscles DO NOT degrade due to enlargement.
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Hey, I have no medical education if you don't count the Discovery Channel, so I completely accept that I could be completely wrong 
I watched a particular medical examiner show where it was said that a large heart with tick, dense walls would actually find it harder to beat and be more susceptible to actually quivering and not pumping blood, causing it to stop. I'm not sure of the exact medical reasons and cases that can lead up to this, but I've seen that exactly reported as cause of death a lot.
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This has no basis in medical science or exercise physiology. Body Building is in fact very good for you barring some underlying condition. Body building does not equal abuse of anabolic steroids. Abusing steriods has a host of consequences that result regardless of whether you ever set foot in a weight room.
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Well, in the case of the Trolls, what's happening to their bodies sounds very much like something equivalent to steroid abuse. They're not growing more muscle naturally through training and exercise, they're being pumped full of... Something and growing unnatural, hulking muscles. While in fiction such mutations are usually harmless, like a person can grow an extra arm and it will be fully functional, in practice mutations like these that exceed what humans can do by several fold cannot escape having severe drawbacks in wear and tear on the body. If a sports trauma can sometimes last a lifetime, I'm sure the stupid stuff the Trolls go through on a daily basis HAVE to have some eventual negative effect, miracle exception perfect regeneration notwithstanding.
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This is a large misconception surrounding body builders. It is biologically impossible for muscle to turn into fat. Regardless of how the muscle mass was created, discontinuing weight lifting (or what ever insane drugs you are taking) will not cause the muscles to turn into fat.
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I don't mean muscle would turn into fat, but rather that muscle would lose tone, which is also something I've no means of backing up. However, I've seen what happens to people who trained a lot and then suddenly stop and resume a more normal life. The more normal of them just lose tone and strength and begin rounding up. The steroid monsters turn into wrecks.
Think about it, though - Trolls are going through muscle and bone on a daily basis, relying on the regeneration provided by Superadine to keep them going. Take their superadine away from them, wait for the effects to start wearing off and they'll start turning their muscles into hamburger meat and their bones into gravel with no means to heal them magically. Trolls are fuelled by Superadine, and stopping its consumption will rid them of... Well, the thing that keeps them together.
Grated, I'm really illiterate when it comes to this, but I don't think we can really hold huge hulking green monsters to human medical science too much, and I'm pretty confident we can feel free to make a few things up as we go.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Think about it, though - Trolls are going through muscle and bone on a daily basis, relying on the regeneration provided by Superadine to keep them going. Take their superadine away from them, wait for the effects to start wearing off and they'll start turning their muscles into hamburger meat and their bones into gravel with no means to heal them magically. Trolls are fuelled by Superadine, and stopping its consumption will rid them of... Well, the thing that keeps them together.
Grated, I'm really illiterate when it comes to this, but I don't think we can really hold huge hulking green monsters to human medical science too much, and I'm pretty confident we can feel free to make a few things up as we go.
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That's an entirely different scenario then you first described, not really related to body building. Pushing your body beyond physical limitations and relying on a drug to replenish your musle and bone tissue would convievably cause the scenario you've described. Which is along the lines of what I was looking for in terms of "negative" effects.
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I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Supa Trolls usually don't survive long, as the Superadine overdose burns out their bodies.
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I watched a particular medical examiner show where it was said that a large heart with tick, dense walls would actually find it harder to beat and be more susceptible to actually quivering and not pumping blood, causing it to stop. I'm not sure of the exact medical reasons and cases that can lead up to this, but I've seen that exactly reported as cause of death a lot.
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Muscles built up naturally will also increase vasculature to those muscles (incease branches of the blood vessels). Muclses built up by unsafe practices (pharmacuticals, some ripping techniques) or disease will not. Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathies (HCM) are conditions in which hear muscle will thicken pathologically and not in response to increased exercise. Such muscles are not any stronger and do not have increased vasculature which dramatically increases their chances for arrythmias (the quivering). Basically the mass of the muscle has increased but the blood flow has not, starving off muscle and nervous tissue.
The association between anabolic sterois abuse and left ventricular hypertrophy or HCM is hottly debated in the medical field, but that's enough RL medical science. Troll Superadine has regenerative benefits, so even if mucle mass was created with out increased vasculature, the user would suffer no ill effects to their muscles. Would those effects translate to the heart muscles?
I'm starting to think Supa Troll would all eventually die due to brain aneurysms or aortic aneursyms. I don't care how much you regenerate, the amount of hypertension needed to maintain this type of growth would eventually cause a major blood vessel to burst. Considering the interdimensional perception the 1% attain, brain aneursyms seems the more likely. Basically, they all die of a stroke.
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This list seems rather light on negative effects. I work in health care so perhaps I'm asking to much, I would have expected to see worst. Are there additional clues in game that might suggest more?
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Well, "becoming a troll" is more than one side effect: hair loss, skin discoloration, horn-like growths, and drastically reduced intelligence.
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This list seems rather light on negative effects. I work in health care so perhaps I'm asking to much, I would have expected to see worst. Are there additional clues in game that might suggest more?
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Well, "becoming a troll" is more than one side effect: hair loss, skin discoloration, horn-like growths, and drastically reduced intelligence.
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Sorry, I tried to clarify in subsequent posts what I mean by negative. While agree in the 'real world' turning into a troll would be a negative side effect, it's somewhat a debateable point in a "comic book" environment. City of Heroes has a massive array of mutiple skin colors and horned characters, for the average joe wanting to be more 'super', growing horns and turning green is some what subjective.
Loss of intelligence would be a negative effect, but that effect is debatable. The Family Superadine does not cause this diminshed intelligence and actually suggests increasing it. It seems more likely the cutting agent (as Umbral suggested) would be the more likely culprit. We don't have enough information in that regard.
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I think it'd be interesting to actually drop this at the devs' feet in this thread. I really would be curious as to all of the canon effects of Superadine and all of the canonical differences between the pure and cut strains.
You know, I have to say that's fascinating, Desmodos. I mean I'm pretty basic in most fields of science aside from mathematics, but it's always really cool to listen to other people talk about it. I like to gather information where I can, and hopefully when next something on this subject comes up, I'll come out as less of a clueless dunderhead
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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From the words of Angel Lopez in the City of Villain's tutorial after you give him some Superadine that he requests from a troll, "This stuff is fantastic! Just be careful how often you use it or you'll end up green like Mr. Verde over there, he's a troll and they love to overdose on that stuff and cause havoc. That's not really my cup of tea."
This implies that if you use it carefully/wisely you won't ever become a Troll. That the negative effects associated with Trolls is from a direct overdose of Superadine. This makes it quite different than modern drugs where overdose can almost certainly mean death. I believe that Superadine isn't outlawed because it always does horrible things to the body but because it gives increased aggression/super powers. This makes it very hard on the police of paragon city and the heroes in general. It's outlawed because it's just plain dangerous.
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From the words of Angel Lopez in the City of Villain's tutorial after you give him some Superadine that he requests from a troll, "This stuff is fantastic! Just be careful how often you use it or you'll end up green like Mr. Verde over there, he's a troll and they love to overdose on that stuff and cause havoc. That's not really my cup of tea."
This implies that if you use it carefully/wisely you won't ever become a Troll. That the negative effects associated with Trolls is from a direct overdose of Superadine. This makes it quite different than modern drugs where overdose can almost certainly mean death. I believe that Superadine isn't outlawed because it always does horrible things to the body but because it gives increased aggression/super powers. This makes it very hard on the police of paragon city and the heroes in general. It's outlawed because it's just plain dangerous.
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Hey, thanks. I forgot all about that exchange.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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From the words of Angel Lopez in the City of Villain's tutorial after you give him some Superadine that he requests from a troll, "This stuff is fantastic! Just be careful how often you use it or you'll end up green like Mr. Verde over there, he's a troll and they love to overdose on that stuff and cause havoc. That's not really my cup of tea."
This implies that if you use it carefully/wisely you won't ever become a Troll. That the negative effects associated with Trolls is from a direct overdose of Superadine. This makes it quite different than modern drugs where overdose can almost certainly mean death. I believe that Superadine isn't outlawed because it always does horrible things to the body but because it gives increased aggression/super powers. This makes it very hard on the police of paragon city and the heroes in general. It's outlawed because it's just plain dangerous.
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Hey, thanks. I forgot all about that exchange.
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No problem. I guess as long as you're careful, other than anger problems, a minor hallucinogenic, and addiction there's no real negative side effects. Only if you give in to the craving and over indulge. As I said in my other post, it's probably outlawed only because of how much trouble the drug causes to the general public.
# Nausea
# Irritability and short tempers
# Hostility
# Homicidal impulses
# Rapid loss of mental clarity
# Amnesia
# Kidney failure
# Diarrhea
# Muscle aching and weakness
# Tingling or cramping in the legs
# Inability to walk
# Problems sleeping
# Constipation
# Impaired muscle formation
# Erectile dysfunction
# Temperature regulation problems
# Nerve damage
# Mental confusion
# Liver damage and abnormalities
# Neuropathy
# Death
They don't call me Doctor Discomfort for nothin'!
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# Nausea
# Irritability and short tempers
# Hostility
# Homicidal impulses
# Rapid loss of mental clarity
# Amnesia
# Kidney failure
# Diarrhea
# Muscle aching and weakness
# Tingling or cramping in the legs
# Inability to walk
# Problems sleeping
# Constipation
# Impaired muscle formation
# Erectile dysfunction
# Temperature regulation problems
# Nerve damage
# Mental confusion
# Liver damage and abnormalities
# Neuropathy
# Death
They don't call me Doctor Discomfort for nothin'!
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Care to elaborate. There is no basis for some of these symptoms. I agree some of these are highly probable.
SI Radio has many DJs and listeners whom hold City of Heroes close to their hearts. We will be supporting many efforts to keep CoH ALIVE!!
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# Nausea
# Irritability and short tempers
# Hostility
# Homicidal impulses
# Rapid loss of mental clarity
# Amnesia
# Kidney failure
# Diarrhea
# Muscle aching and weakness
# Tingling or cramping in the legs
# Inability to walk
# Problems sleeping
# Constipation
# Impaired muscle formation
# Erectile dysfunction
# Temperature regulation problems
# Nerve damage
# Mental confusion
# Liver damage and abnormalities
# Neuropathy
# Death
They don't call me Doctor Discomfort for nothin'!
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Care to elaborate. There is no basis for some of these symptoms. I agree some of these are highly probable.
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Except for death, those are the real side effects of some drug. Didn't make a note of the name. It was just the first thing I found in google. Pick and choose which ones fit I guess.
I can only imagine what that drug is meant to actually treat.
Y'know, if you read the backstory to the Trolls, nobody actually knows where Superadine came from, how it was discovered or what its original purpose was...
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I can only imagine what that drug is meant to actually treat.
Y'know, if you read the backstory to the Trolls, nobody actually knows where Superadine came from, how it was discovered or what its original purpose was...
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Actually, I'm we've already found out that it was originally a super-soldier drug from WWII. Check the main site and the "top secret" section for the Family.
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# Nausea
# Irritability and short tempers
# Hostility
# Homicidal impulses
# Rapid loss of mental clarity
# Amnesia
# Kidney failure
# Diarrhea
# Muscle aching and weakness
# Tingling or cramping in the legs
# Inability to walk
# Problems sleeping
# Constipation
# Impaired muscle formation
# Erectile dysfunction
# Temperature regulation problems
# Nerve damage
# Mental confusion
# Liver damage and abnormalities
# Neuropathy
# Death
They don't call me Doctor Discomfort for nothin'!
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Care to elaborate. There is no basis for some of these symptoms. I agree some of these are highly probable.
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Except for death, those are the real side effects of some drug. Didn't make a note of the name. It was just the first thing I found in google. Pick and choose which ones fit I guess.
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This sort of thing is why I take our modern pharmaceutical community with a grain of salt. I'm still waiting for them to come out with:
"Death! A guaranteed cure for cancer, AIDS, and ED!"
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I can only imagine what that drug is meant to actually treat.
Y'know, if you read the backstory to the Trolls, nobody actually knows where Superadine came from, how it was discovered or what its original purpose was...
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Actually, I'm we've already found out that it was originally a super-soldier drug from WWII. Check the main site and the "top secret" section for the Family.
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You heard it here! Captain America took Superadine!
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# Nausea
# Irritability and short tempers
# Hostility
# Homicidal impulses
# Rapid loss of mental clarity
# Amnesia
# Kidney failure
# Diarrhea
# Muscle aching and weakness
# Tingling or cramping in the legs
# Inability to walk
# Problems sleeping
# Constipation
# Impaired muscle formation
# Erectile dysfunction
# Temperature regulation problems
# Nerve damage
# Mental confusion
# Liver damage and abnormalities
# Neuropathy
# Death
They don't call me Doctor Discomfort for nothin'!
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Care to elaborate. There is no basis for some of these symptoms. I agree some of these are highly probable.
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Except for death, those are the real side effects of some drug. Didn't make a note of the name. It was just the first thing I found in google. Pick and choose which ones fit I guess.
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Heck, I could take a drug, during testing, then go out, get beat up horribly and requiring hospitalization... and that drug would end up with "horrendous internal bleeding" as a possible side effect.
And remember folks, if you sick, take your meds... unless you were also sick some other way then your screwed!
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We know even perfectly normal humans are capable of extreme feats of burst strength, enough to snap handcuff chains and break bones...
[/ QUOTE ]It doesn't take all that much force to break a bone. It depends on which bone, of course, but they're hardly the strongest thing on earth
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Break their own bones is what (I think) I meant. I actually had a friend who claimed he'd seen (or had heard of) a man who snapped a pretty sturdy steel bed frame rail with his hand in such a situation.
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Pound for pound, bone is stronger than concrete. It has a large amount of compressive strength along it's major axis, which is why most breaks that you see occur when something hits it hard from the side at one of the thinnest areas.