Steampunk, Time Travel and Suspension of Disbelief
By
AncientSpirit_NA,
Posted on: 2009-05-31 16:42 in Mission Architect
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Some of the Rikti dialogue when you encounter them on the streets indicate they can at least sense your thoughts.
It is possible to have a 'send to target only' based mental network, so what you say is possible.
But regardless, a Rikti automaton that can fool Rikti would still have to be able to project thoughts that another Rikti could comprehend and find normal, not to mention receive telepathic communication from Rikti in order to respond to them correctly.
So the Automaton has to be able to formulate (or choose from a script), send, and receive Rikti telepathy, unless we assume that the Rikti use conventional speech except in circumstances a Rikti automaton could avoid.
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Well, according to the canon, Nemesis did find a way to figure it out. And if someone says that he couldn't have figured out a way to mimic Rikti telepathy because he uses steam, I am going to flip out.
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Well, according to the canon, Nemesis did find a way to figure it out. And if someone says that he couldn't have figured out a way to mimic Rikti telepathy because he uses steam, I am going to flip out.
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Must... resist... temptation...
And, somehow I get the impression Rikti equipement is made to be psi-receptive, so those drones and whatnot are controlled by thought.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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If you've got a Nemesis automaton with a steam engine in it, using lots of heat to make steam and keep it hot, that heat's got to go someplace. You can't just "install a cooling system" to make the machine put out only as much heat as a human body. If Nemesis technology is Exactly What It Says On The Tin, as the writers insist, then the only place for the heat to go is the environment around the robot, meaning not only would it stand out like a sore thumb on any kind of heat or IR sensor, but it may not even be too comfortable standing anywhere near one. If, on the other hand, Nemesis is using the same kind of Applied Phelbotinum as the rest of the world's super-science and superhumans in general (the customary favorite at least since Marvel's OHOTMU, being "extra-dimensional energy sources"), we're back to "Nemesis technology only looks archaic but is really cutting edge", only it's not described that way. It would mean that DATA, Aeon, etc. would easily be able to tell from examining it that the steam parts were useless cosmetic affectations and the real work was being done with the usual tricks, but instead the writers insist on:
1) Steam power
2) ????
3) Profit!
It's not cool, it's just bad writing and there's no justification for it.
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I swore to god I wouldn't get involved in this thread, as it's just really bad for my heart, but I had to, had to, against my better judgement, at least offer up something just to get it out of my head.
The primary problem people keep pointing out about Nemesis' automatons is that if they really were powered by steam, there would have to be a release of steam of some sort and it would be shooting out of their ears and eyes in a terribly comedic fashion and ruin the disguise. The secondary problem is that they would be "noisy."
The second problem can be solved in part through heterodyning, or the mixing of two waveforms. If another waveform is produced that has a structure opposite to the waveform created through the automatons normal operations, the sound it makes could be greatly reduced or completely nullified. They use this on sports cars and submarines and such, I believe.
The primary problem, with excess steam, can be seperated into three things:
1) Heat
2) Vapor
3) Pressure
1) My theory is that the heat can be reduced through energy absorbative materials. Different substances require different amounts of energy in order to be raised to a certain temperature; the concept is specific heat, I believe. What is this material that can absorb so much energy from steam? I dunno, I'll leave that to the writers. In any case, the idea here is that an IR scanner reads temperature, not energy.
2) There could be some sort of condensing system within the automaton's mechanical guts to turn the water vapor into liquid water. How much? I don't know, but it couldn't have been a lot to begin with if it were to fit inside a small engine that could fit within a human sized robot. In any case, if there's an excess amount that needs to be removed, it could be disguised as perspiration, saliva, or other bodily fluids.
3) Excess pressure could be relieved, disguised as normal respiration, perhaps. It wouldn't be nearly as boiling hot or steamy any more, but normal human respiration does release heat and moisture, and this could be considered to be the 'steam release' mentioned way up above, if you're willing to believe it.
I'm not saying that I know exactly what materials or structure this process would use, I'm saying that this is the process one might use. Could it go on indefinitely? Of course not. Even the automatons need recharging. Consider it a lunch break. So what do they do, eat coal or drink water? I don't even know. In fact, nobody really knows how the current line of Nemesis steam engines works. They might not even use coal.
In any case, if people thought you were bumbling and goofy enough to try and use steam technology in the modern era, with all its supposed clankiness and steaminess, and if you used outdated Victorian vernacular and decorated your equipment with fine, expensive details, if your actual level of technological sophistication and competency on the matter were much higher than you let on in public, you too could probably fool people rather easily...when you really wanted to do so.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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The more you analyze and nitpick at the storyline the less you will actually enjoy it.
In the end it is about the personal experience. Sometimes you just need to suspend belief and enjoy the story for what it is, entertainment.
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A well written story is more enjoyable when you nitpick and analyze it, IMO.
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This thread is proof to the contrary. People are complaining about the physics of a comic book based world.
I disagree; I find the discussion amusing.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
This discussion is amusing, especially when Venture and Talen take things so seriously... 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Love of the game if you ask me.
As for the aberrant thought patterns, it could be something as simple as the telepathic equivalent of "he looks funny!" or "his accent is wrong!". Just because your thoughts 'feel' wrong doesn't mean they have to be able to read them.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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I disagree; I find the discussion amusing.
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You got a point there. Carry on then.
I'm curious what arc I've missed that specifically says all or even most Nemesis tech is steam powered. The description on most of his soldiers includes:
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Although Nemesis likes to dress his soldiers in 19th century style, their weaponary is decidedly modern.
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Sounds like a standard comic book super genius with a 19th century flair. Not someone who has found ways to make all things magical with steam.
The only thing explicitly stated to use steam power as far as I know are the Jaegers (which may very well be kept around because they're cheap and expendable). Most of the rest of his technology is described as far more advanced. The steam stacks on the warhulks *may* be functional, but the ones on the Fake Nemesi seem almost undoubtedly whimsical. After all, he got his start in steam tech and its sort of his signature thing, it's not a stretch for him to have a small non-functional steam stack tacked on there. Especially when he's so flamboyant with the get ups he throws on his solidiers.
Of course, I'm probably just missing some arc where some idiotic contact exclaims with wide eyed fervor, "Nemesis is teh steamiest!"
Infatum on Virtueverse
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Love of the game if you ask me.
As for the aberrant thought patterns, it could be something as simple as the telepathic equivalent of "he looks funny!" or "his accent is wrong!". Just because your thoughts 'feel' wrong doesn't mean they have to be able to read them.
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No, but you don't have to be able to read someone's thoughts precisely to know that they are an anomaly. An automaton, or someone with malicious intent, would probably "feel" wrong compared to peaceful explorers.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Eva: Hang on.
I think we've managed to start agreeing and nobody told us. My point is that it's entirely feasible that a Sufficiently Advanced Roboticist could make a robot capable of either A: infiltrating a mindlinked society or B: mimicking an invader on said society.
[edit] The post you quoted was my attempt to explain the Lost cry of "Aberrant thought patterns!" without making the Rikti capable of mind-reading.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Of course, I'm probably just missing some arc where some idiotic contact exclaims with wide eyed fervor, "Nemesis is teh steamiest!"
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Not entirely sure where exactly I read that Nemesis Rifles are powered by steam, but I'm rather certain they are.
However, I'm in total agreement with you that people's assumption of how much of his stuff is steam related is way off base.
I think I found it. Here.
"The Nemesis Staff generates immense power, though, like all Nemesis' creations, it is based on steam technology."
Which goes back to my Flanderization/RunningTheAsylum theory.
[edit]More here.
"Most engineers would agree that steam technology is hopelessly out of date, but not Nemesis. Truly, it is amazing how he has adapted such an old technology to modern warfare."
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
Eva: Hang on.
I think we've managed to start agreeing and nobody told us. My point is that it's entirely feasible that a Sufficiently Advanced Roboticist could make a robot capable of either A: infiltrating a mindlinked society or B: mimicking an invader on said society.
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Sure, it's possible. It's just that the possibility is so completely out there that it requires way too much suspension of disbelief. Especially considering the Manticore automaton's dialogue, suggesting it has specific programming, rather than a free-thinking AI.
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[edit] The post you quoted was my attempt to explain the Lost cry of "Aberrant thought patterns!" without making the Rikti capable of mind-reading.
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But your "mind-feeling" theory would still flush out an aberration, such as an invader or a robot.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I think I found it. Here.
"The Nemesis Staff generates immense power, though, like all Nemesis' creations, it is based on steam technology."
Which goes back to my Flanderization/RunningTheAsylum theory.
[edit]More here.
"Most engineers would agree that steam technology is hopelessly out of date, but not Nemesis. Truly, it is amazing how he has adapted such an old technology to modern warfare."
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Nah, the Nemesis Staff has always had a description similar to that, and I remember the guns specifically being steam powered being from before I6.
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I think I found it. Here.
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Thanks for the find 
Stumbled on this while poking around. Apparently Nemesis isn't the only one who still sees potential in steam.
Infatum on Virtueverse
Now to play devil's advocate:
Steam power doesn't necessarily mean high temperature or burning coal.
A nuclear reactor is a steam engine, as people have already pointed out.
A steam engine doesn't have to power a mechanical machine. It could be used to create electricity to run things like computers, electromagnets, etc.
If the internal pressure of the machine could be maintained below normal atmospheric pressure, the temperature to boil the fluid would be reduced as well. The fluid doesn't have to be water, it could be something that boils at a much lower temperature.
All this combined with advanced materials and production methods could push the idea of a "steam-powered" automaton from ridiculous to plausible. It would of course be an extremely inefficient way to build a robot but Nemesis is nothing if not overly complicated.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
The problem is that while it could be any of those things, up to and including steam-catalyzed cold fusion (explaining the "atom rays"), what we're TOLD is that it's good old-fashioned steam engine technology.
As I mentioned before, it's not even like D.A.T.A. is studying the stuff to figure out how it works. Everyone just seems to buy into the idea that Nemesis is just really wacky inventive about ways to use steam power.
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Steam power doesn't necessarily mean high temperature or burning coal.
A nuclear reactor is a steam engine, as people have already pointed out.
A steam engine doesn't have to power a mechanical machine. It could be used to create electricity to run things like computers, electromagnets, etc.
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It's very true. The bummer thing is that nuclear power is a known technology, and it'd be kinda easy to figure out if Nemesis was using nuclear material. Doesn't mean it's out of the question, though...there just aren't many clues ingame as to how Nemesis' technology works. Part of the appeal, of course, but somewhat frustrating when trying to write anything about it, eh?
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If the internal pressure of the machine could be maintained below normal atmospheric pressure, the temperature to boil the fluid would be reduced as well. The fluid doesn't have to be water, it could be something that boils at a much lower temperature.
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Also true. I like this. Of course, this method would only seem to hold true for the Automatons; Jeagers and Warhulks still enjoy exploding their guts everywhere, much to everyone's detriment (except Nemesis'.)
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
Why do you all assume that steampunk technology is the same as steam technology?
Does email use the same technology as mail does?
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The problem is that while it could be any of those things, up to and including steam-catalyzed cold fusion (explaining the "atom rays"), what we're TOLD is that it's good old-fashioned steam engine technology.
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Where is this reference to "old-fashioned steam engine tech"? All I've seen thus far is "based on steam tech", which is a pretty big difference.
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As I mentioned before, it's not even like D.A.T.A. is studying the stuff to figure out how it works. Everyone just seems to buy into the idea that Nemesis is just really wacky inventive about ways to use steam power.
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I don't remember D.A.T.A. studying malta sapper technology either (You'd think this would be fairly important to most Heroes). They're a bunch of do nothing slackers, just like M.A.G.I., go figure.
That's not to say I don't see your point, but I think what you're seeing is more of a broader problem with the lore than something specifically related to Nemesis.
Infatum on Virtueverse
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Why do you all assume that steampunk technology is the same as steam technology?
Does email use the same technology as mail does?
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<ul type="square">
Steam-powered gun - This gun may be powered by outdated steam technology, but it is otherwise state-of-the-art. Even the bullets are incredibly sophisticated, built for tearing through the tough hide of some of Paragon City's toughest tankers.
Steam-powered robotic part - Other than it's power source, there is nothing archaic about this robot part. The flexibility, strength, and speed of the assembled robots would undoubtedly be top notch.[/list]
The implications over and over again are that the steam engines in question are, in fact, old-fashioned steam engines. It's the machines powered by them that are the clever bits.
I'm starting to think that comic-book genre universes are governed by Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem: they can be "complete" (i.e. contain all major sub-genres, like military, magic, science/futuristic) or consistent, but not both. CoX is angling to be inclusive in the sub-genres represented, hence, it's going to be inconsistent.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
Very well said.
Some of the Rikti dialogue when you encounter them on the streets indicate they can at least sense your thoughts.
It is possible to have a 'send to target only' based mental network, so what you say is possible.
But regardless, a Rikti automaton that can fool Rikti would still have to be able to project thoughts that another Rikti could comprehend and find normal, not to mention receive telepathic communication from Rikti in order to respond to them correctly.
So the Automaton has to be able to formulate (or choose from a script), send, and receive Rikti telepathy, unless we assume that the Rikti use conventional speech except in circumstances a Rikti automaton could avoid.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!