Steampunk, Time Travel and Suspension of Disbelief
By
AncientSpirit_NA,
Posted on: 2009-05-31 16:42 in Mission Architect
"It's all a Nemesis plot" is another joke taken way too far. The original Nemesis story arcs end up with him dying, you beat him up, and you NEVER FIGHT HIM AGAIN. There is Nemesis? in one of Crimson's missions, and all those cheesy one-off missions you get from Maxwell Christopher, but the fact that you beat up Nemesis ONCE AND FOR ALL (?) leaves us with the "it was a Doombot....er, Fake Nemesis" excuse.
But they just couldn't let it lie, could they? No, they HAD to bring Nemesis back, they just HAD to make the biggest event in Paragon City's history Another Nemesis Plot. And one with plot holes big enough to drive a truck through, at that. And while doing so they had to make the super-advanced "aliens" dumb as bricks, just so they'd fall for it.
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Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
How do you know they didnt travel so far in the future where steam power has advanced and is beyond your current time knowledge?
It's obviously magic nuclear powered zombie steam from the future. I don't know what all the fuss is about.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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How do you know they didnt travel so far in the future where steam power has advanced and is beyond your current time knowledge?
[/ QUOTE ]Because if he'd done that he'd have won already. A person with a brain and time travel will win. Period. There really is no way to allow time travel in this environment that does not immediately and conclusively lead to a victory, which is why time travel is such a bad storytelling element to wield in a setting with science.
....and what do you do after you win? You reset the board and play a new game, and who knows how long this has been going on already...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
So what you're saying is that we're only allowed to play because Nemesis wants something to win at. Again. Wow, you guys are just pushing back the boundaries of masturbatory self-indulgence here. I don't even think the official Nemesis is actually that bad.
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So what you're saying is that we're only allowed to play because Nemesis wants something to win at. Again. Wow, you guys are just pushing back the boundaries of masturbatory self-indulgence here. I don't even think the official Nemesis is actually that bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
When you consider that there are multiple dimensions where they had fewer/none/less-effective heroes, Nemesis really did win and those alternate Nemesis are now duking it out for rulership of the multiverse, it isn't all that far-fetched that one of them (ours?) is a world where he just enjoys gaming the heroes instead of outright lording it over everyone.
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Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if you can imagine it, there's a way to do it, and that's served me pretty well so far. 
Sadly, a great many people these days have awfully stifled imaginations.
[/ QUOTE ]Bad attitude to have as a writer. "Oh, my readers are too stupid."
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I didn't even say 'my readers' have stifled imaginations. I said that most people do - which they do. I've lost count of just how many times I've been told at work that something is impossible only for my teammates and I to find a really simple way of doing it a few days later. Impossible my tail. If you can imagine it, there's a way to do it.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
[ QUOTE ]
A person with a brain and time travel will win. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
People keep saying this, but I'm not sure I believe it. Are you including omniscience with time travel? Immortality? With omniscience, immortality and time travel, yes, I believe you can win... but without those two other ingredients, it sure seems possible to muck things up or lose for good.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
A person with a brain and time travel wins...
...if there are no limitations on the time travel, time travel alters the One and Only Timeline, and they are the only people out there with brains and time travel.
Otherwise you end up in endless wars of "I killed your grandparents 'first'!"
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
I like Venture.
That said, I think the reason for this entire thread is not that Nemesis stretches his suspension of disbelief, but Venture appears to put forth the the idea that Nemesis should stretch everyone's suspension of disbelief.
I for one, don't share that opinion. I am perfectly happy that everyone's suspension of disbelief runs out in various places.
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This. Note that you can substitute lots of people's names for Venture's; he just states it the most eloquently. Here's an explanation:
The "Nemesis debate" seems to be about two things. First, how realistically do you expect the context/physical setting of the game world to operate? If you want it to be as plausible as the scientific explanations in hard science fiction, you'll be disappointed. If you're satisfied with, "Oh, it runs on steam," or, "Oh, it's magic," you're fine.
Put another way, some people argue that heroes shouldn't be able to use Fire powers and still claim they don't kill or maim the enemies they use them on. These people expect the game's setting and trappings to function in a relatively "realistic" way. The fact that not everyone agrees is at the root of the fight over whether Nemesis's technology is silly or "cool."
(I'm reminded here of a debate over Origins a while back. Most of the posters criticized Magic as "too open-ended" and "lacking an explanation." I pointed out that I prefered Magic precisely because all it requires as an explanation is "it's magic" rather than an elaborate, pseudoscientific justification. Of course, I noted that if you prefer, say, Science, making up the elaborate justification is part of the fun.)
Second, and I think this is the real problem, how realistic do you expect the psychology of the world to be? While not all critics would agree with me, I argue that while the characterization of any story must be believeable, different works can have different levels of realism. I don't expect a particularly high level of realism from CoX, so I'm okay with, say, time-travel not being an "I-win button," or goofy conspiracies like the various Nemesis plots not being immediately outed and foiled.
Many people, however, expect the game's world to operate more like the real world in psychological terms. Thus, when a villain comes up with a complex plot with more parts than a Rube Goldberg machine, they expect it to collapse under its own weight, much as it would in reality.
(For a good example of what I'm talking about with "psychological realism" levels, compare Jim Butcher's "Dresden Files" book series with Sergei Lukyanenko's "Night Watch" series. Both deal with a subculture of the supernatural hiding in modern society, and both feature believeable characters. However, in Butcher's series, the less "psychologically realistic" of the two, the heroes can generally triumph through application of hard thinking and magical firepower, and the menaces are generally actual opponents who can be defeated. In Lukyanenko's more "realistic" series, on the other hand, while the heroes are even more powerful than Butcher's, they frequently lose, because the threats they face are primarily spiritual or emotional.)
The problem may be that the devs never give a clear statement of how psychologically realistic the game world is supposed to be. However, I think it's strongly implied that the game isn't meant to be particularly psychologically realistic, and I think attempting to shoehorn it into a more pyschologically realistic frame is just an exercise in frustration for all concerned. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me; some feel that the lack of psychological realism is a fatal weakness in the game world's design.
***
Getting back to the real reason I posted, does anyone know about the use of vacuum tubes in modern, real-world techonology? I thought sure someone would bite on that hook when I mentioned it . . . 
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
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I'm starting this thread to siphon discussion off of Venture's 2nd review thread, so it can go back to focusing on reviews.
Some points made so far (paraphrasing):
Venture: Nemesis technology being steam-powered is too ridiculous to swallow. The devs should have made it steam-powered in appearance only and given it some other actual basis for operations. The worst faux pas is the Nemesis automatons, which should be easy for anyone to spot if they're really done with steampunk technology.
Time travel is never a good plot device because it should be an I Win button for anyone who can use it. Plots that attempt to use it end up falling victim to Timey Wimey Ball, Idiot Ball, or Fridge Logic problems.
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I'm a steampunk fan, some of my favourite works are Steampunk and I love that Nemesis has it... so they'll take it away over my dead body.
Time travel can be done right... but unless you destroy the time machine you're right they can just keep trying and trying (depending on that time travel theory your using... if it just creates a new splinter timeline, who cares except the people in that timeline).
Getting back to the real reason I posted, does anyone know about the use of vacuum tubes in modern, real-world techonology? I thought sure someone would bite on that hook when I mentioned it . . .
I don't have time now to reply to everything or for lots of detail, but the MiG-25, built by the Soviets back in the 70s, did have a tube-type radar set. This was for two reasons. The secondary reason was the MiG-25 had heat problems, mainly because it wasn't much more than a chassis welded to a pair of overpowered jet engines, and the tube-type circuitry was less susceptible to overheating than semiconductors would have been. The primary reason was because the Soviets couldn't keep the outlying bases the plane would be stationed at supplied with semiconductors, but there were always lots of vacuum tubes lying around. I've heard it said the tube-type circuitry was less vulnerable to EMP but I don't think that's really true, and not much of a reason to use it in any case.
At the time American intelligence thought the MiG-25 was a highly agile advanced air superiority fighter. When we finally got a look at one (a Soviet defector flew a brand-new one to Japan) it turned out to be fairly low-tech brute-force engineering, intended to blast into the upper atmosphere ASAP and unload its missiles at high-flying recon planes like the U-2. It was impressive in some ways -- IIRC a MiG-25 still holds the record for highest altitude attained by a jet under its own power -- but not nearly as scary as our analysts had thought.
The use of vacuum tubes wasn't some kind of low-tech high-tech brilliance. It was really meatball engineering. Which is why contemporary military jets still don't use tubes.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
It's entirely possible to use water in various forms to create some entirely awesome technology. In terms of power you could use water fusion to power robots or the explosion it creates to propel your projectiles; no doubt some left over material would appear as steam.
In terms of data storage and computation, water molecules are polar and can be persuaded to form crystals. This allows you to use water as the basis of a computer more powerful than one you can currently make out of silicon and metal.
Water may not be the best material for this purpose by our base technological standards. But that may explain why Nemesis tech hasn't been adopted by the rest of the world - it's too much of a hassle to make in even a remotely cost effective manner.
The reason that it's possible in a comic or sci-fi setting to use any technology you like as the basis for any group is that if you really put your mind to it; it is probably possible.
As for time travel, anyone who does use it as an "I win button" gets eaten by a dog before they started it. Or lives in an egg, which can hardly be called winning.
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don't have time now to reply to everything or for lots of detail . . .
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. . . but you gave plenty for me. See, this sort of thing is what I like about Venture.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
What about Pneumatic tubes? Those are a much more steampunk-era feel application of either compressed air or vacuume in tubes, which is still in use today (though on a much smaller scale then in the past).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumat...#Current_usage
I mean think about how this system was used in the Shadow, something like this would fit in well with the Nemesis motif.
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So what you're saying is that we're only allowed to play because Nemesis wants something to win at. Again. Wow, you guys are just pushing back the boundaries of masturbatory self-indulgence here. I don't even think the official Nemesis is actually that bad.
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to me you expect something original from Humans... how optimistic of you.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Word of Gawd is that there is a 500 page Story Bible (written by Manticore?) and has been since Day One.
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I find that hard to believe, unless the font used is VERY BIG. 
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I think this is a game created for a world created for a game.
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I'd be surprised if the setting existed before the game in any form more comprehensive than some scribbled notes. The setting seems clearly built around, and designed to facilitate, the game. And if you were to ask me, I'd say that's why it's failed to expand beyond it.
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Any perceived 'thinness' to the material is probably due to the fact that the world/game is intentionally designed to be iconic and generic rather than specific.
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It's the lack of depth. The whole "iconic" thing may very well have been seen as a way to circumvent the need for detail and depth. And, for the specific purposes of a game, that might even be true. But, when stepping outside the boundaries of the game, it's apparently not enough to carry the IP.
For example, I have no desire to read the single (?) City novel. What I've seen of the comics has been pretty uninteresting and, yes, "generic"... though I'd probably say, "cliche'". Also, I don't think the RPG ever got off the ground, but I wouldn't care if it did. I wouldn't pick it up.
And this is all coming from someone who's a big fan of the game. I've been here 5 years straight, haven't strayed, don't have any interest in any other MMOs that're in the works.
If the world really doesn't capture my imagination and interest, how's it going to catch the eye of anyone not so vested in the game?
Well, based on its history so far... it doesn't.
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I think the main thing that has hurt the 'feel' of the City IP over the years is that there is not what I would call a clear progression to the enemies.
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I'd say this is still thinking in terms of a game.
I'd put the blame for the hurt primarily at the feet of the signature characters (most of them, anyway), as they are very much the IP's signature. By and large, they're more avatars than they are characters, so when they've had to be just the latter, they've usually fallen flat. Unfortunately, their lack of substance continues throughout most of the setting and its other elements.
To sum up, I find the whole shebang pretty flimsy and implausible and, based on the IP's overall perfomance, it looks like I'm not alone in that assessment.
If I were to scrutinize the setting to the point where I'd question the feasibility of "Nemtech", I'd be lost looong before I ever encountered it. My ability to suspend disbelief would start to crack at: why does anyone even live here?
I "survive" this setting by just rolling with it, focusing on the immediate and personal, making ample use of the blur effect on the big picture, and conveniently disregarding the nonsensical.
But when you add MA to the equation, this approach could run into some problems with audiences that don't subscribe to it.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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A person with a brain and time travel will win.
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Unless the time traveling is involuntary.
The Cape Radio: You're not super until you put on the Cape!
DJ Enigma's Puzzle Factory: Co* Parody Commercials
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Word of Gawd is that there is a 500 page Story Bible (written by Manticore?) and has been since Day One.
[/ QUOTE ]
I find that hard to believe, unless the font used is VERY BIG.
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I think this is a game created for a world created for a game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd be surprised if the setting existed before the game in any form more comprehensive than some scribbled notes. The setting seems clearly built around, and designed to facilitate, the game. And if you were to ask me, I'd say that's why it's failed to expand beyond it.
[ QUOTE ]
Any perceived 'thinness' to the material is probably due to the fact that the world/game is intentionally designed to be iconic and generic rather than specific.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's the lack of depth. The whole "iconic" thing may very well have been seen as a way to circumvent the need for detail and depth. And, for the specific purposes of a game, that might even be true. But, when stepping outside the boundaries of the game, it's apparently not enough to carry the IP.
For example, I have no desire to read the single (?) City novel. What I've seen of the comics has been pretty uninteresting and, yes, "generic"... though I'd probably say, "cliche'". Also, I don't think the RPG ever got off the ground, but I wouldn't care if it did. I wouldn't pick it up.
And this is all coming from someone who's a big fan of the game. I've been here 5 years straight, haven't strayed, don't have any interest in any other MMOs that're in the works.
If the world really doesn't capture my imagination and interest, how's it going to catch the eye of anyone not so vested in the game?
Well, based on its history so far... it doesn't.
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I think the main thing that has hurt the 'feel' of the City IP over the years is that there is not what I would call a clear progression to the enemies.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say this is still thinking in terms of a game.
I'd put the blame for the hurt primarily at the feet of the signature characters (most of them, anyway), as they are very much the IP's signature. By and large, they're more avatars than they are characters, so when they've had to be just the latter, they've usually fallen flat. Unfortunately, their lack of substance continues throughout most of the setting and its other elements.
To sum up, I find the whole shebang pretty flimsy and implausible and, based on the IP's overall perfomance, it looks like I'm not alone in that assessment.
If I were to scrutinize the setting to the point where I'd question the feasibility of "Nemtech", I'd be lost looong before I ever encountered it. My ability to suspend disbelief would start to crack at: why does anyone even live here?
I "survive" this setting by just rolling with it, focusing on the immediate and personal, making ample use of the blur effect on the big picture, and conveniently disregarding the nonsensical.
But when you add MA to the equation, this approach could run into some problems with audiences that don't subscribe to it.
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Honestly I think what's hurt the expansion of the IP isn't a weakness of the signature characters, but the fact that aside from the novels everything else has been foccused around selling the game. The comic made many references to game mechanics, such as badges and enhancements and such... this is not needed, yes your hurt by not being able to show the Sig heroes administer the final blow to Tyrant or Recluse, but you don't have to have a comic world where they say "it's all a game cause we get teleported if we get hurt", or talk about other game mechanics like that.
A talented writer could take what's presented in the story material and make a decent comic, cartoon or movie about this series... it could even included some of the silly stuff, but just strip the series down to it's basic core don't try to reference every bit of game jargon.
Heck, I think I could do it, (don't judge my writing by my forum posts please). And I know how to do it... and there's plenty of other talent out there that can do it. If secondary media is not treated like a commercial for the game it can work.
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A talented writer could take what's presented in the story material and make a decent comic, cartoon or movie about this series... it could even included some of the silly stuff, but just strip the series down to it's basic core don't try to reference every bit of game jargon
[/ QUOTE ]I would never say that CoX's lore lacks for potential. That that potential lays unused in so many places is what frustrates.
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Frankly, I'm of the opinion that if you can imagine it, there's a way to do it, and that's served me pretty well so far. Sadly, a great many people these days have awfully stifled imaginations.
[/ QUOTE ]Bad attitude to have as a writer. "Oh, my readers are too stupid."
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
[/ QUOTE ]I wasn't. I was expressing a very similar opinion and demonstrating how it could be bad, from the perspective of a writer. As a writer, don't ever make it the audience's fault that something you did didn't work.
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I didn't even say 'my readers' have stifled imaginations. I said that most people do - which they do. I've lost count of just how many times I've been told at work that something is impossible only for my teammates and I to find a really simple way of doing it a few days later. Impossible my tail. If you can imagine it, there's a way to do it.
[/ QUOTE ]I can imagine a hamburger materialising in my hand, but it ain't happening. You are speaking like an engineer, though - which brings to my mind that when you say 'imagine' you mean what I guess I'd say as 'conceptualise,' as if you're trying to think up mechanisms and ways to handle things rather than just flat out imagining any old thing. Imagination doesn't have to make sense, for example.
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A person with a brain and time travel wins...
...if there are no limitations on the time travel, time travel alters the One and Only Timeline, and they are the only people out there with brains and time travel.
Otherwise you end up in endless wars of "I killed your grandparents 'first'!"
[/ QUOTE ]That's what is known as the 'timey wimey ball.' And it's very stupid.
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A person with a brain and time travel wins...
...if there are no limitations on the time travel, time travel alters the One and Only Timeline, and they are the only people out there with brains and time travel.
Otherwise you end up in endless wars of "I killed your grandparents 'first'!"
[/ QUOTE ]That's what is known as the 'timey wimey ball.' And it's very stupid.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except when Bill and Tedd do it!
The problem with Nemesis and his steampunk nature is that they never try to give an answer about how it works. I mean, we have steam-powered androids, steam-powered cybernetics that are apparently superior to what the Freaks typically use, steam-powered blasters, etc...
We're also told that in the forties he was using "atom rays"; in other words, nuclear powered ray guns. Additionally, it's stated that the materials and technology of his devices is very high-tech and modern aside from them being steam-powered.
With the Clockwork King, we get the build-up for awhile about what a terrific robotocist he is, but eventually we learn the truth as we assist our contacts in attempting to understand his creations.
With Nemesis, there's nobody at D.A.T.A. asking "How the heck can this thing operate on steam?" We just take it for granted that it works and that it's "cool". It doesn't help that we have various Jaegars and Fake Nemesi spouting clouds of smoke and giving the impression that they are, in fact, running on some kind of 19th century coal burning furnace.
Heck, if they just waved their hands and did the Steamboy schtick and said "Nemesis discovered a new kind of REALLY POWERFUL steam! *wink* *wink*" then that would be something.
Maybe I'm just tired of everything up to and including the Rikti War being a Nemesis plot. If Nemesis was as cool as he's portrayed, he would have won a long time ago. In fact, I'm starting to believe that the real story is that he HAS won, and we just don't realize that he's really running the world in secret, Illuminati-style, while the heroes of the world run around playing games with the toys he sends to distract them.