Steampunk, Time Travel and Suspension of Disbelief
By
AncientSpirit_NA,
Posted on: 2009-05-31 16:42 in Mission Architect
[ QUOTE ]
"It's all a Nemesis plot" is another joke taken way too far. The original Nemesis story arcs end up with him dying, you beat him up, and you NEVER FIGHT HIM AGAIN. There is Nemesis? in one of Crimson's missions, and all those cheesy one-off missions you get from Maxwell Christopher, but the fact that you beat up Nemesis ONCE AND FOR ALL (?) leaves us with the "it was a Doombot....er, Fake Nemesis" excuse.
But they just couldn't let it lie, could they? No, they HAD to bring Nemesis back, they just HAD to make the biggest event in Paragon City's history Another Nemesis Plot. And one with plot holes big enough to drive a truck through, at that. And while doing so they had to make the super-advanced "aliens" dumb as bricks, just so they'd fall for it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that Nemesis being behind the Rikti invasion was out of nowhere as you seem to think. Some reading material:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Maxwell_Chri...ck_the_evidence
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Anton_Sampso...is.27_next_plan
First link explains that not only was Nemesis working on Rikti technology 10 years prior to the Rikti war, he somehow was capable of replicating Rikti telepathy, which would make one think that he probably was capable of creating a semblance of an electronic brain. Just because Rikti can read thoughts, doesn't mean they can detect organic material with their minds, mind you.
Of course, this comes with a caveat that none of this will necessarily make any sense to you. Just showing that they did make an attempt at rationalization within the game lore.
Link number two shows that Nemesis has had portal technology for quite some time. Anton Sampson even theorizes off hand that he hid in some other dimension during the Rikti Invasion. That sounds to me like a wink and a nod from the writer.
The story history that I believe is still on the website, or maybe the history badge for Portal Corp, I can't remember which, states that the Rikti were first contacted back in the mid-nineties, and initial diplomatic relations with them were fairly peaceful. The Rikti invasion was sudden, unexpected, and uncharacteristic.
I've always guessed that Nemesis started the Rikti invasion. Whether it makes sense is another matter.
That's one of the things about writing for older Nemesis missions. They make far more sense than more recent ones. His plots didn't seem like they came out of left field just to make him seem like an incalculable mastermind. You could put the pieces together and figure out his plans for the most part. Unfortunately, your contact couldn't, and your character has no chance to pull a Batman and out-think the criminal mastermind.
Another comment to leave this off on, some people (namely Venture) have expressed disbelief of the automatons due to steam power being incredibly hot. That can simply be explained by the outer parts of the robot having a cooling system, making them show up as normal body temperature for an infrared camera.
I thought Timey Wimey Ball was for when the Time Travel rules were internally inconsistent to a series of stories (City handwaves this by implying that different methods of time travel potentially have different effects on the base timeline, if there even is such a thing).
It's possible to have Time Travel stories where the rules are consistent, the characters are of normal intelligence, and yet it isn't an I Win button at the same time.
Usually because in those stories there are two or more people with Time Travel of similar intelligence and the consequences of the travel are not easily predictable. Also, often, there are limits on the time travel itself (such as the number of times you can coexist, or the precision with which you can reach a particular moment).
Ever see Primer ? Time travel one-upsmanship with consistent but limited time travel.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Time travel vs. Time travel
Ahem. Back to the subject on hand.
I believe there might have been some Flanderization, to steal the Trope term. We know that Nemesis uses Steam technology. But we don't know that he uses just Steam technology.
Consider this for a moment. This is a man who is capable of creating machines that:
-Fool telepaths (Rikti Automatons)
-Fool a hive mind (Bane Spider Automatons)
-Mimic any powerset in the game, including magic or mutant origin ones (Automatic Villainy)
-Mimic powers of a divine origin. (Statesman Automaton)
To me, that suggests Nemesis isn't at all adverse to using technology beyond mere steam. Why amke steam-powered robots then? Personally, I believe Nemesis reasoning is simply a combination of "To show that I can" and "I like steam". He strikes me as a bit of a insufferable genius. He's brilliant, and feels the constant need to show off.
I think most of the offenses are a combination of Flanderization and Running The Asylum - starting around the time of I6, with the introduction of Nemesis salvage. Consider. The first automatons, with their artificial lines are office workers. But later on (I7) you have Bane Spiders spouting lines that would have them found out immediately...
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that Nemesis being behind the Rikti invasion was out of nowhere as you seem to think. Some reading material:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Maxwell_Chri...ck_the_evidence
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Anton_Sampso...is.27_next_plan
First link explains that not only was Nemesis working on Rikti technology 10 years prior to the Rikti war, he somehow was capable of replicating Rikti telepathy, which would make one think that he probably was capable of creating a semblance of an electronic brain. Just because Rikti can read thoughts, doesn't mean they can detect organic material with their minds, mind you.
Of course, this comes with a caveat that none of this will necessarily make any sense to you. Just showing that they did make an attempt at rationalization within the game lore.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Comic book logic says telepathy doesn't work on robots. CoH says psi attacks are largely ineffective against robots. The Rikti seem to have a lot of experience using telepathy, wouldn't they notice something odd if they can read some of the humans' minds and then bam, they're attacked by someone who either has no thoughts, or who's thinking "0001010010101?"
[ QUOTE ]
Link number two shows that Nemesis has had portal technology for quite some time. Anton Sampson even theorizes off hand that he hid in some other dimension during the Rikti Invasion. That sounds to me like a wink and a nod from the writer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it's been established he has portal technology. That makes sense, he's the type who would want to get his hands on any new technology.
[ QUOTE ]
The story history that I believe is still on the website, or maybe the history badge for Portal Corp, I can't remember which, states that the Rikti were first contacted back in the mid-nineties, and initial diplomatic relations with them were fairly peaceful. The Rikti invasion was sudden, unexpected, and uncharacteristic.
I've always guessed that Nemesis started the Rikti invasion. Whether it makes sense is another matter.
[/ QUOTE ]
I could buy it if his methods weren't so obviously transparent. Do the Rikti have no concept of villains? Wouldn't an attack from a dimension that was no threat to them up until that point make them go "hmm?"
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Comic book logic says telepathy doesn't work on robots. CoH says psi attacks are largely ineffective against robots. The Rikti seem to have a lot of experience using telepathy, wouldn't they notice something odd if they can read some of the humans' minds and then bam, they're attacked by someone who either has no thoughts, or who's thinking "0001010010101?"
[/ QUOTE ]
...unless said robot was designed specifically to be psi-reactive by someone who knows what he's doing.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Comic book logic says telepathy doesn't work on robots. CoH says psi attacks are largely ineffective against robots. The Rikti seem to have a lot of experience using telepathy, wouldn't they notice something odd if they can read some of the humans' minds and then bam, they're attacked by someone who either has no thoughts, or who's thinking "0001010010101?"
[/ QUOTE ]
...unless said robot was designed specifically to be psi-reactive by someone who knows what he's doing.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just find that a stretch. I just can't reconcile telepathy with technology. The mind is such a uniquely organic thing, and so complicated that it would require a level of technology to duplicate that I just can't accept in a game world that is still so close to ours.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
The more you analyze and nitpick at the storyline the less you will actually enjoy it.
In the end it is about the personal experience. Sometimes you just need to suspend belief and enjoy the story for what it is, entertainment.
[ QUOTE ]
The more you analyze and nitpick at the storyline the less you will actually enjoy it.
In the end it is about the personal experience. Sometimes you just need to suspend belief and enjoy the story for what it is, entertainment.
[/ QUOTE ]
A well written story is more enjoyable when you nitpick and analyze it, IMO.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
My first attempt at this post was eaten by the "form no longer valid" bug, so now not only do I want to throw physics books at people but I also want to strangle the author of this forum software...anyway....
Another comment to leave this off on, some people (namely Venture) have expressed disbelief of the automatons due to steam power being incredibly hot. That can simply be explained by the outer parts of the robot having a cooling system, making them show up as normal body temperature for an infrared camera.
While I still don't have time to go over everything in detail, this makes me want to throw physics books at people.
Cooling systems do not make heat "go away". You can't actually "cool" things. "Cold" is not an energy or a force, it is the absence of heat. A cooling system is really a heating system that makes something else hot in part by taking heat away from something you don't want to be hot. The air conditioner in your window is not cooling your room; it is heating the outside air, sucking heat out of your room to do it. The ice in your soda is not cooling your soda. The soda is melting the ice, losing energy to do it.
If you've got a Nemesis automaton with a steam engine in it, using lots of heat to make steam and keep it hot, that heat's got to go someplace. You can't just "install a cooling system" to make the machine put out only as much heat as a human body. If Nemesis technology is Exactly What It Says On The Tin, as the writers insist, then the only place for the heat to go is the environment around the robot, meaning not only would it stand out like a sore thumb on any kind of heat or IR sensor, but it may not even be too comfortable standing anywhere near one. If, on the other hand, Nemesis is using the same kind of Applied Phelbotinum as the rest of the world's super-science and superhumans in general (the customary favorite at least since Marvel's OHOTMU, being "extra-dimensional energy sources"), we're back to "Nemesis technology only looks archaic but is really cutting edge", only it's not described that way. It would mean that DATA, Aeon, etc. would easily be able to tell from examining it that the steam parts were useless cosmetic affectations and the real work was being done with the usual tricks, but instead the writers insist on:
1) Steam power
2) ????
3) Profit!
It's not cool, it's just bad writing and there's no justification for it.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
How about this thought:
Nemesis can create telepathic robots (even Asimov had those) not only because he is such a genius, but also because he has access to future technology more advanced than Rikti science due to his Time Travel.
EDIT: [ QUOTE ]
Do the Rikti have no concept of villains? Wouldn't an attack from a dimension that was no threat to them up until that point make them go "hmm?"
[/ QUOTE ]
I imagine that with a telepathic society, there isn't as much need for investigative experts. You get attacked by this guy who enters via a Portal, you read his mind, and his entire thoughts and memory chronicle a beleiveable plan to commit genocide upoon your race (including reasons why this won't be in the minds of random peopl you might kidnapt to verify the story).
What do you do? You report it to the authorities, who then tell you to launch a counter-invasion while there is still time.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
What about making the steam systems entirely contained (so no steam is venting to the environment) and 'simply' insulating the robots so well that none of the internally generated heat (well not more than 98.6 farenheit) reaches or is detectable from the outside?
I am more concerned with how he deals with the weight/mass, unless he is using some kind of gravity generator. Although I suppose the automations could 'simply' contain less than 200 lbs total of water, rubber and brass...maybe they are all made from advanced plastics and hydraulics?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The idea isn't that the heat is magically disappearing, it's that the outside shell would be cooled by a refrigeration system. Obviously the automaton would have to vent the heat periodically.
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Comic book logic says telepathy doesn't work on robots. CoH says psi attacks are largely ineffective against robots. The Rikti seem to have a lot of experience using telepathy, wouldn't they notice something odd if they can read some of the humans' minds and then bam, they're attacked by someone who either has no thoughts, or who's thinking "0001010010101?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Artificial intelligence is well documented in the CoH universe. Citadel, for one. If a machine is sophisticated enough to perfectly mimic sentience, then I would think that it could think in something other than binary.
[ QUOTE ]
I could buy it if his methods weren't so obviously transparent. Do the Rikti have no concept of villains? Wouldn't an attack from a dimension that was no threat to them up until that point make them go "hmm?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they don't have any concept of villains. Rikti Priests hunt down aberrant thought processes and correct them. Hro'Dtohz's ambition and independence is said in Serpent Drummer's arc to be completely out of character for Rikti. I suspect that he is only allowed to continue with his independent line of thought because of the war.
Actually, you know what? Someone show me proof that Nemesis Automatons are actually even steam powered. I've never read anywhere that they are. As far as I know only the Warhulks, Fake Nemeses, and Jaegers are steam powered, in addition to the rifles and such.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. It doesn't make sense. Comic book logic says telepathy doesn't work on robots. CoH says psi attacks are largely ineffective against robots. The Rikti seem to have a lot of experience using telepathy, wouldn't they notice something odd if they can read some of the humans' minds and then bam, they're attacked by someone who either has no thoughts, or who's thinking "0001010010101?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Artificial intelligence is well documented in the CoH universe. Citadel, for one. If a machine is sophisticated enough to perfectly mimic sentience, then I would think that it could think in something other than binary.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe so, but the Manticore automaton's attempts to taunt you suggest that it doesn't actually contain an artificial intelligence. It's programmed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I could buy it if his methods weren't so obviously transparent. Do the Rikti have no concept of villains? Wouldn't an attack from a dimension that was no threat to them up until that point make them go "hmm?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, they don't have any concept of villains. Rikti Priests hunt down aberrant thought processes and correct them. Hro'Dtohz's ambition and independence is said in Serpent Drummer's arc to be completely out of character for Rikti. I suspect that he is only allowed to continue with his independent line of thought because of the war.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right. They wipe out aberrant thought, so obviously they have some concept of it. They know we're not as advanced as they are. They know we're not telepathic. It doesn't take much to figure out "hey, this guy's an aberrant, and the poor pathetic humans can't do anything about it. Sucks to be them, the ones we met earlier seemed like nice guys."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you know what? Someone show me proof that Nemesis Automatons are actually even steam powered. I've never read anywhere that they are. As far as I know only the Warhulks, Fake Nemeses, and Jaegers are steam powered, in addition to the rifles and such.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point precisely.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you know what? Someone show me proof that Nemesis Automatons are actually even steam powered. I've never read anywhere that they are. As far as I know only the Warhulks, Fake Nemeses, and Jaegers are steam powered, in addition to the rifles and such.
[/ QUOTE ]
Steam powered rifles, wha?
Actually this is the true genius of Nemesis. He makes Frankenguns look good.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
Right. They wipe out aberrant thought, so obviously they have some concept of it. They know we're not as advanced as they are. They know we're not telepathic. It doesn't take much to figure out "hey, this guy's an aberrant, and the poor pathetic humans can't do anything about it. Sucks to be them, the ones we met earlier seemed like nice guys."
[/ QUOTE ]
You see, this brings up another thing that I considered. Can the Rikti actually read minds? I don't think they can. I think they simply operate on a hive mind, and just transmit thoughts, as it were. The Rikti Mentalists' attacks probably operate by pretty much screaming at someone with their mind. Their minds are alien, and the human mind probably cannot comprehend Rikti thoughts.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you know what? Someone show me proof that Nemesis Automatons are actually even steam powered. I've never read anywhere that they are. As far as I know only the Warhulks, Fake Nemeses, and Jaegers are steam powered, in addition to the rifles and such.
[/ QUOTE ]
Steam powered rifles, wha?
Actually this is the true genius of Nemesis. He makes Frankenguns look good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pfft. Steam powered rifles are probably the easiest thing about Nemesis to rationalize. All you would need is to boil water extremely fast. Ever hear about water exploding after being microwaved? More or less the same principle at work.
I wouldn't call it a hive mind. More of a mind web. Many separate minds in constant contact. Internet 2.0.
What shall claim a Sky Kings' Ransom?
PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right. They wipe out aberrant thought, so obviously they have some concept of it. They know we're not as advanced as they are. They know we're not telepathic. It doesn't take much to figure out "hey, this guy's an aberrant, and the poor pathetic humans can't do anything about it. Sucks to be them, the ones we met earlier seemed like nice guys."
[/ QUOTE ]
You see, this brings up another thing that I considered. Can the Rikti actually read minds? I don't think they can. I think they simply operate on a hive mind, and just transmit thoughts, as it were. The Rikti Mentalists' attacks probably operate by pretty much screaming at someone with their mind. Their minds are alien, and the human mind probably cannot comprehend Rikti thoughts.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Lost dialogue "abberant thought processes detected" implies that they can. I agree with you that their thoughts are probably alien, so the Lost are better at reading our thoughts than homegrown Rikti, but the question is how alien? They are capable of more or less understanding us.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't call it a hive mind. More of a mind web. Many separate minds in constant contact. Internet 2.0.
[/ QUOTE ]
True, hive mind wasn't really the right word for it. My main point is that I don't think I've ever heard of a Rikti reading the mind of someone that isn't another Rikti.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, you know what? Someone show me proof that Nemesis Automatons are actually even steam powered. I've never read anywhere that they are. As far as I know only the Warhulks, Fake Nemeses, and Jaegers are steam powered, in addition to the rifles and such.
[/ QUOTE ]
Steam powered rifles, wha?
Actually this is the true genius of Nemesis. He makes Frankenguns look good.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pfft. Steam powered rifles are probably the easiest thing about Nemesis to rationalize. All you would need is to boil water extremely fast. Ever hear about water exploding after being microwaved? More or less the same principle at work.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's also unnecessary. I was under the impression their rifles operated on the same principle as the player Assault Rifles, they just looked better.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
[ QUOTE ]
It's also unnecessary. I was under the impression their rifles operated on the same principle as the player Assault Rifles, they just looked better.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said it was necessary. He's an eccentric supervillain from the late 1800s. His whole MO is anachronism. The whole steam powered thing is just part of his villainous style.
[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't. I was expressing a very similar opinion and demonstrating how it could be bad, from the perspective of a writer. As a writer, don't ever make it the audience's fault that something you did didn't work.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, I see. My mistake. In that case, as a writer, don't ever assume that context has no effect on your presentation.
[ QUOTE ]
Imagination doesn't have to make sense, for example.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters