Badges that are long term WITHOUT the grind.
By
Big_cuban,
Posted on: 2009-05-27 21:58 in Badges and Gladiators
Exploration and history badges basically ARE your zone-based badges.
As to the grindiness of badges, here's my take. If a toon can reasonably earn the badge naturally en route from 1 to 50, I won't complain about it. However, most badgers are already level 50 on the toons they actually care about getting all the badges on, and they have no reason to naturally earn them naturally on those toons. Which means they are just going to be expedient about things and farm them as quickly as possible.
Frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I didn't object to most of the MA badges because I thought they were reasonable. Things like some of the virtual badges were way out of line, however, as were the play 250 HOF and 100 DC arc badges (do any toons even play 350 separate story arcs from 1 to 50?). Also, the voting badges were problematic from the beginning. But in general, count badges are fine, so long as the count is reasonable. All to often, however, it is ridiculously out of proportion to the content. This is especially annoying for badges that are precursors to accolades (for example, Illusionist for heroes and Gangbuster for villains).
I'm all for new criteria for badge earning, and you have some pretty good ideas.
My only idea would be giving badges based on achieving confidant status with contacts (either so many gamewide, so many in a zone, or some such). The only problem with this is that it's completely and easily possible to outlevel contacts, which would destroy the chances of getting this, which makes it definitely no good. Maybe limit it to maximum level contacts? Just a thought, anyway.
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Exploration and history badges basically ARE your zone-based badges.
As to the grindiness of badges, here's my take. If a toon can reasonably earn the badge naturally en route from 1 to 50, I won't complain about it. However, most badgers are already level 50 on the toons they actually care about getting all the badges on, and they have no reason to naturally earn them naturally on those toons. Which means they are just going to be expedient about things and farm them as quickly as possible.
Frankly, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I didn't object to most of the MA badges because I thought they were reasonable. Things like some of the virtual badges were way out of line, however, as were the play 250 HOF and 100 DC arc badges (do any toons even play 350 separate story arcs from 1 to 50?). Also, the voting badges were problematic from the beginning. But in general, count badges are fine, so long as the count is reasonable. All to often, however, it is ridiculously out of proportion to the content. This is especially annoying for badges that are precursors to accolades (for example, Illusionist for heroes and Gangbuster for villains).
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You missed one or two Ghosts in Croatoa .. with a total of 2 door missions that actually have ghosts getting 333 almost always requires either an very long hunt or farming. Fake Nemesis .. Unless you are on a fairly large sized team there just are not enough of these to not end up getting together a group and hunting/farming them if someone has a mission with any number of them in it.
I've suggested several times here on the forums that one way to solve the last is either go to Crey's Folly or Eden and replace all of the Warhulks that roam there with Fake Nemesis. At least that would give badge hunters somewhere other than the Shadow Shard to hunt for them.
As for the ghosts of Croatoa short of adding an additional contact who would give mostly missions revolving around ghosts the only way I see to make that easier would be to reduce the number required. Every villain group there requires 333 for a badge. Gordon Bower and the Skippers mission revolve around Fir Bolg and some Tautha. Kelly's revolve around Tautha and Cabal and Bucks give you plenty of opportunity to tackle Red Caps. No one gives you a lot of missions involving ghosts so what DEV decided we needed the same number of ghosts as the other groups? Heck you can even get most of the Cabal and a good number of the Red Caps by doing the KHTF and we see Red Caps and Tautha again during the Winter event and Red Caps again during the Valentine event. They made it pretty easy to get all the other and then all but forced us to farm/hunt Ghost if we want to try for the accolade. 
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was always curious if the number '333' signified anything in that zone...
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You missed one or two Ghosts in Croatoa .. with a total of 2 door missions that actually have ghosts getting 333 almost always requires either an very long hunt or farming.
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You forgot the obvious one of teaming. Running those 2 missions on a team of 8 pretty much gets you there.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
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These are good ideas.
Global name: @k26dp
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My only idea would be giving badges based on achieving confidant status with contacts (either so many gamewide, so many in a zone, or some such). The only problem with this is that it's completely and easily possible to outlevel contacts, which would destroy the chances of getting this, which makes it definitely no good. Maybe limit it to maximum level contacts? Just a thought, anyway.
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That's not the only problem with it. The other potential problem is that it would even further reduce the ability to get a team. That is, I'm assuming, like merits, only the mission holder would get credit towards the badge, so this could encourage everyone to run solo to get their contact badges. I think there's a little too much doooom! built into that one.
How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
Although I am sure this is trackable (team size badge), it might still be a little tough to get in normal play and griefable to boot. At what point does one get the tic for having an 8 man team? I would figure at mission complete, but what happen when one or more people have to leave team? Not too big a deal normally, but attach a badge to it, and watch the hard feelings begin.
Besides, I always considered the Lackey badges as a sure sign of teaming anywho.
Ninus Lvl 50 Bots/Dark/SM Mastermind Badges: 1384 @Ninus on Global
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Campaigning for Global Global Ignore Champion since 2009!
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How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
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Very afk farmable.
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How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
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Very afk farmable.
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Not if they tie it to time spent "in combat", a state that they can track.
Global name: @k26dp
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How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
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Very afk farmable.
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Not if they tie it to time spent "in combat", a state that they can track.
[/ QUOTE ] Even still.. lower level foes that wont be able to kill you..
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Although I am sure this is trackable (team size badge), it might still be a little tough to get in normal play and griefable to boot. At what point does one get the tic for having an 8 man team? I would figure at mission complete, but what happen when one or more people have to leave team? Not too big a deal normally, but attach a badge to it, and watch the hard feelings begin.
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Lots of badges track how many seconds you're doing something - the lackey badges, the day job badges, the pvp zone badges; I would set the teaming badge up the same way, that way it's not as griefable.
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How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
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Very afk farmable.
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So what? Farmable is one thing, grind-inducing is something else. If they create a badge for spending 25 hours on an 8 man team and 8 morons want to get together and sit inside a level 2 mission for 25 hours to get it instead of just playing the freaking game, what are you going to do?
If you want to eliminate badge farming, you need to eliminate ALL kill badges, and don't even institute badges that award with one kill. I'm pretty sure I could go 1-50 in normal play without ever finding myself on a mission where I had to defeat a Shivan or a Cap au Diable electricity gremlin, so even if they lowered the Wo/Man in Black and Electrician badges to award with one defeat, I'd technically have to "farm" for them.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
I wanna see a Posi Plus badge.
Like 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 times the victor.... but doing Posi instead.
Rules:
You must be in the lvl range of the TF, if you need to be ex'ed
you get the Standard posi badge. So if you out level it, your outta luck.
Solo, you get the Posi badge.
2 team mates... Posi Plus One.
all the way to:
Posi Plus Seven.
And truth be told... a full team of 8 in the level range that finishes Posi intact.... deserves a special damn badge!
Anyway.... that is my evil plan to get people out of the MA. 
BC 
OMG, talk about grindy! Requiring people to turn off exp and do a TF ten times that few people want to do once? No thank you.
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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was always curious if the number '333' signified anything in that zone...
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The mobs in that zone are only 1/2 evil.
Tanker Tuesday #72 Oct 5 @Champion
"I am not sure if my portrayal of being insane is accurate, but damn its fun all the same."
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was always curious if the number '333' signified anything in that zone...
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The mobs in that zone are only 1/2 evil.
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Isn't there a "Rule of 3" associated with Wicca? Like if you do something evil, it'll come back on you three-fold?
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
mousedroid, it's eight times.... but who's counting...
BC
Yeah, I stopped after one. 
(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon
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Ahh, the bane of badge developers; a long term badge that can be earned through natural play, isn't considered a "grind", and is still exciting to earn.
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I hope this is the general direction things go, and that the devs use some imagination and ingenuity in coming up with badge qualifications that both give players goals for play and also reflect the history of play for a specific toon.
I always thought their old method of qualifying for badges lacked creativity and was just an easy way out. Pretty much like all the hunt missions we got in the old CoH content. It was just a way of getting players to grind so they'd play for as much time as possible with as little dev effort as possible.
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How about this - something similar to the mentoring badges, but tied to teaming. For example, a "Team Player" badge or badge series for spending X (and Y and Z) number of hours on a full team of 8?
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Very afk farmable.
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Not if they tie it to time spent "in combat", a state that they can track.
[/ QUOTE ] Even still.. lower level foes that wont be able to kill you..
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Still AFK farmable
I really don't get the big deal about kill-count badges or "farmability" factors. seriously, who cares? why is this an issue? whose game is this breaking?
I remember endlessly patrolling Striga to get my wolf and vamp badges. I swung by that island in Talos just outside the DA entrance for months to get the mask badge. every time I was in Crey's I would take down at least 3 or 4 large groups of rikti monkeys. I'm quasi-compulsive about badges, but the only arguably "abusive" behavior I've ever engaged in to get a badge was for Empath. which I still don't have, by the by, even after the requirements were lowered. maybe some people joined farms to get those same badges in a tenth of the time, but I don't see how that has damaged my play experience or the game as a whole. it took me a year and a half to get my first 50. some people do it in a week or so. one approach isn't more valid than the other, and neither invalidates the other
I agree that some of the MA badges were unrealistic and unreasonable, but so are the third tier RV badges. so ... so what? why the change? why the need to disrupt a paradigm that has worked for five years plus?
smells like a bunch of care-bearing to me
I'm obviously not a Dev, and talking for them is kinda dangerous, but let me explain what I think they are thinking with the desire to remove high "kill count" badges.
The Devs are looking for everything in the game, be it badges, leveling, missions, etc to follow a natural progression. This means the player is never left doing one repetitive task for the sake of meeting a goal. For Farming missions, the Devs don't want to see you stuck inside one mission, defeating the same MOB over and over just for the sake of experience or other rewards. For badges, the Devs don't want to see you stuck gathering thousands of monkeys together for days on end just for the sake of a badge.
So why? If the player is enjoying themselves, regardless of the task, why would the Devs care what they do? Well, because they feel they know best in this regard (I agree, by the way) and are attempting to prevent burnout of the game. If every time you pass through a zone you feel 'required' to perform a task for a reward, the Devs have failed. The instant you "grind" a level or "grind" a badge, the Devs have failed. The challenge of the game should be the tasks within the game, not the rewards they give. To clarify that: It's better to make doing something once harder than to make it harder by doing it multiple times.
Also, and I'm sure this is true to some Devs more than others, they want you to experience all of the game they've created -- not just 2% of it in the doorway of a Freakshow mission or spending all your time beating on Illusionist. I'm sure they're proud of their creation, they think of all the amazing stories they've told and visuals they've produced, then look in game to see herding; it must be maddening.
Well, there you go. My take on what a Dev might say if they wandered into this thread and answered why they are going away from farms and kill count badges. It could be completely wrong or completely right. Outside of a red name coming in, we'll never know.
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I'm obviously not a Dev, and talking for them is kinda dangerous, but let me explain what I think they are thinking with the desire to remove high "kill count" badges.
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This is the important detail,
the devs are not removing high kill count badges as you claim.
based on the MA list, the devs are removing all count badges.
not limited to high; not limited to kills.
thus, a lot of the rest of your post only applies to a small subset of what the devs are taking as their new badge direction. What do you think about the rest? to cite just one counter-example, what do you think about the removal of the low glowie-click count badges?
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Players feeling like they have to farm for badges has always been an issue with me.
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Admittedly "count" badges are the easiest to design. You figure out what you want to count, then design a series of badges around progressively higher numbers of those counts. This is why we never abandoned them in the past, when we probably should have.
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Positron's post. (for those who may not have seen it)
I didn't mean to give the impression that they were removing high kill count badges; but if they had it to do over again, they wouldn't be in there to begin with. Also, I doubt we'll see any new ones from here on out.
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Counting clickables is trouble in its own right. Do we really need teams fighting over who's going to click on the pulsating objects on their race to one hundred pulsating objects? The Devs have discovered that some gamers, instead of earning a one hundred clickable object badge through twenty levels of play or thirty days of play, will instead find the highest clickable count mission and run it over and over until they get the badge.
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So players went and did everything they could to get the "long period of time" badges as quickly as possible. So we upped the numbers. THIS was a mistake as it only exasperated the problem instead of fixing it. Now players just farmed longer, and more specifically.
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This is exactly the behavior they are trying to curb to prevent burnout. While you or I might be content on naturally earning such a badge, another player is going into the same mission for the sixth time wondering why he's playing this gawd forsaken game -- missing the point of the badge completely. You can't explain to people that they'll earn that badge over time, no need to rush it, so the Devs are corking the forks, so to say, in an attempt to preventing us from hurting ourselves.
Ahh, the bane of badge developers; a long term badge that can be earned through natural play, isn't considered a "grind", and is still exciting to earn. A pipe dream? I don't think so. Here are my suggestions:
Zone Based Badges
My first suggestion breaks down badges by zones and focus on both the natural progression of the zone and allow Devs to "highlight" areas they feel make the zone important. Let's take Steel Canyon for example. What makes this zone special? Well, there's two tram stations, the University, Tailor, the "Arson" zone event, Outcast MOBs, Pos's horrible Task Force... I know there is a plethora of others, but let's just go with these. So, ok, a few exploration badges for the highlights of the zone -- that gets your 'Steel Canyon Hero' badge started. Next, require the pain of Pos's TF and stopping the arsonist. Round it up by defeating one of each boss that is the trademark of the zone (one of each Outcast boss types). Wrap it all up and you've got a nice fancy badge that shows you've completed all the major events of that zone.
Now, could someone grind this? Yes, but as they did, they would at least learn about the zone, the history of what makes the Steel Canyon zone important as part of the game AND in the CoX universe.
Group Based Badges
This works like Zone Based Badges and could actually be used side-by-side, but instead of focusing on city zones, it would focus on each MOB group in the game. Using two groups as examples: Hellions and Circle of Thorns. The basis of these badges is to defeat one of each type of MOB in that group. Small groups, like Hellions could be completed in a single mission -- as they should! Every minion type, lieutenant type, and boss type would be required, so groups like Circle of Thorns would last the entire life of your Hero/Villain. It help shows what groups hold importance in the CoX universe.
Grinding these badges would be a pain, but possible for the determined. What's important is, normal play would push these badges out at a nice pace. Some groups are compact, maybe even mission based. Those would be great to keep people's interest. Also, the huge groups give people something to work for. Now, that said, the very large groups (like CoT) would need more than one badge. Otherwise, figuring out you missed a Madness Mage somewhere down the line would be annoying.
I have more ideas, but these are the two I wanted to see some feedback on. Would these be badges that would interest you? Do you see any glaring flaws in these ideas? Would love to hear what everyone thinks!