New Level Pact Squad to face the Toughest in CoH
By
10100101,
Posted on: 2009-05-22 19:36 in The Market and Inventions
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Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.
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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?
This is the underlying problem with that rationale.
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Exactly. If your SOLE metric is time... then you're simply trying to cover bad game design. You create something that specifically allows your players to do things you don't want them to, (level quicly) and instead of making changes to your product, you put some threat to those that might use your product to it's fullest and retroactively ban accounts for doing just that.
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Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.
Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.
The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.
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qft. This idea that it takes long, at all, to level through the REGULAR non-MA content is pure idiocy.
This game isn't hard in anyway shape or form.
In another thread someone was SHOCKED, shocked I say, that it takes folks 4-5 weeks (and I know folks who have done it faster) at most to lvl a 50. A month is not long at all.
I don't know what game they are playing that they think it's hard to level. This isn't WoW folks.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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People have been doing it for years. Literally. Especially for pvp. The issue is that it's now taking place in the precious snowflake known as the MA.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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It is when it's roughly a factor of 10x faster than anything you've experienced before.
Look, I think how the devs approached this whole thing was the pinnacle of stupidity, but your stance on it, posted far and wide across the boards here, is ludicrous in the opposite direction. Getting to 50 in under 20 hours is spectactular and impressive exactly because it's not something the general playerbase either knows how to do or wants to futz with learning how you do it. This is "easy" to do in the same sense that beating the STF and RSF is "easy" for the general playerbase.
Even if you just have to haul your butt to PI/GV and ask for a PL in broadcast, it was still vastly more accessable to wander into the MA in Atlas/Mercy. You didn't need a SK, and it was easy to find people who wouldn't charge for the "service" of having a farmable map on hand.
It's obvious that not everyone finds access to PLing easy, because we saw how many people did it with the MA, and yet when easy MA PLing went away the volume of PLing clearly took a dive alongside it. If PLing was as accessable as you seem to claim, everyone would still be doing it.
The devs freaked out because everyone and their dog could PL to 50 in sub 20 hours. Not because it had never been done before (or since).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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And that is not to say that 50 levels in 20 hours is normal though. It is not. It is not intended. That some people could set themselves up to level this fast doesn't have any bearing on what the intention was with MA.
How many times did they say it wasn't a farming tool?
As has been pointed out, the problem is not that people were pushing the boundries and being really smart about designing characters. People were designing missions and critters (and also using other exploits, it wasn't all Meow farms) that people playing through didn't need to do anything special to level at a rediculous speed.
It is just hard to have sympathy for people who set up large outdoor maps consisting of only one enemy type and thought that somehow that wasn't farming. Either they had to ignore the warnings of "MA isn't for farming" or they had to somehow delude themselves into thinking that a giant outdoor map with no story and one enemy is not farming, just a poorly written story.
Either way, it doesn't add up.
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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It is when it's roughly a factor of 10x faster than anything you've experienced before.
Look, I think how the devs approached this whole thing was the pinnacle of stupidity, but your stance on it, posted far and wide across the boards here, is ludicrous in the opposite direction. Getting to 50 in under 20 hours is spectactular and impressive exactly because it's not something the general playerbase either knows how to do or wants to futz with learning how you do it. This is "easy" to do in the same sense that beating the STF and RSF is "easy" for the general playerbase.
Even if you just have to haul your butt to PI/GV and ask for a PL in broadcast, it was still vastly more accessable to wander into the MA in Atlas/Mercy. You didn't need a SK, and it was easy to find people who wouldn't charge for the "service" of having a farmable map on hand.
It's obvious that not everyone finds access to PLing easy, because we saw how many people did it with the MA, and yet when easy MA PLing went away the volume of PLing clearly took a dive alongside it. If PLing was as accessable as you seem to claim, everyone would still be doing it.
The devs freaked out because everyone and their dog could PL to 50 in sub 20 hours. Not because it had never been done before (or since).
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Yup, as I said doing it that fast IN THE MA was the key issue.
And still is. Just not as fast as the rightfully removed meow and rikti misshes.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I don't think you're telling the whole story. You make it sound like you created this mission and the magic ban stick whacked you in the back of the head without warning. I know players that got over 20 levels in meow farms that didn't get banned. As far as I know, deletions only happened for the most egregious farming benefits (benefits not tactics.
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And again, here we have the stupidity of no reasonable guidelines from above.
20 levels due to an "exploit" (as the devs decreed Meowing to be), no problem.
But 50 levels from a mission that would seem, by any reasonable measure, to be 'legit' and here comes the banwagon?
They either need to spell out their policy in clear, precise language, or give up punishing people because the tool they created and released does things they don't want it to.
And refusing to tell people what they've done wrong even after handing out bans and deletions is absolutely unacceptable behavior from supposed professionals.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
When you hand out a bunch of handguns to kids and say, 'Here, kids, these are noisemakers - not intended to be used as weapons!', you don't then get to be shocked and appalled when someone gets shot.
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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.
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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?
This is the underlying problem with that rationale.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. If your SOLE metric is time... then you're simply trying to cover bad game design. You create something that specifically allows your players to do things you don't want them to, (level quicly) and instead of making changes to your product, you put some threat to those that might use your product to it's fullest and retroactively ban accounts for doing just that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.
Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.
The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.
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You misread what he said.
"Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175."
He's seen a reduction in leveling speed of ~3.5x over the years while solo'ing on heroic (due to game changes)
We all know teaming is significantly faster than solo, as it playing on harder difficulty. A decent team can probably best a solo heroic rate by 5x, which brings the expected time down around 35 hrs. And that is before factoring in such leveling speed boosters like farming, or mentoring.
There is a reason why he isn't surprised by ~12hrs. That reason is because it isn't earth shattering. People have been doing it in ~20hrs for years and now that we can fight much harder groups of enemies (higher risk) the reward is expectantly higher.
He noted that over time the devs have continually sped up leveling speed by a pretty large degree, but then they turn around and seem to be using that as the sole metric in determining abuse.
That seems a bit weird.
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Look, I think how the devs approached this whole thing was the pinnacle of stupidity, but your stance on it, posted far and wide across the boards here, is ludicrous in the opposite direction. Getting to 50 in under 20 hours is spectactular and impressive exactly because it's not something the general playerbase either knows how to do or wants to futz with learning how you do it. This is "easy" to do in the same sense that beating the STF and RSF is "easy" for the general playerbase.
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Uber inspires me to make a quick addendum to my stand-
The devs are entirely justified in imposing whatever limits they want on leveling speed & other reward structures in the game. it's their game, that's their job.
But players will try to find the fastest, easiest, most efficient way to earn rewards, and when they uncover stuff the devs don't like there are two reasonable paths to take:
- Patch the problem and move on.
This has been their solution priot to I14.
- Post clear guidelines, so players know where they stand. Then when the ban stick comes out and characters get axed everyone knows why.
The current situation (no guidelines + arbitrary, unexplained punishment) is ridiculous and unacceptable.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.
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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?
This is the underlying problem with that rationale.
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Exactly. If your SOLE metric is time... then you're simply trying to cover bad game design. You create something that specifically allows your players to do things you don't want them to, (level quicly) and instead of making changes to your product, you put some threat to those that might use your product to it's fullest and retroactively ban accounts for doing just that.
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It is an extension of the school of thought that brought us merits. Faster is badder. 1 merit for x min. This is the same thing applied to xp/leveling. And the devs will not consider they might be wrong. When they finally do, COX may just be too far gone.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Quote:
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less than 20 hours to 50 is nothing spectacular or even impressive.
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It is when it's roughly a factor of 10x faster than anything you've experienced before.
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You are making the same mistake Ogon is. You are both defining yourselves as the measuring stick, and then are shocked that other people have different rulers.
I know of entire SGs that will level their entire group up from 1 - 50 in that time. I know of one that just created a series of themed characters, clowns, african tribal, and archers were amongst it.
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Look, I think how the devs approached this whole thing was the pinnacle of stupidity, but your stance on it, posted far and wide across the boards here, is ludicrous in the opposite direction. Getting to 50 in under 20 hours is spectactular and impressive exactly because it's not something the general playerbase either knows how to do or wants to futz with learning how you do it. This is "easy" to do in the same sense that beating the STF and RSF is "easy" for the general playerbase
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1st I haven't taken a stance on powerleveling. I have taken a stand that devs need to either have guidelines for what they want done or they need to drop the B.S.
2nd What a few people know everyone winds up knowing and usually pretty quickly.
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It's obvious that not everyone finds access to PLing easy, because we saw how many people did it with the MA, and yet when easy MA PLing went away the volume of PLing clearly took a dive alongside it. If PLing was as accessable as you seem to claim, everyone would still be doing it.
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MA pling has not gone away. Not by a very long shot. It is still the preferred method, the auto exemp feature cuts out the need to find mentors.
There isn't a day I go into the game that I don't see people PLing in MA.
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Look, I think how the devs approached this whole thing was the pinnacle of stupidity, but your stance on it, posted far and wide across the boards here, is ludicrous in the opposite direction. Getting to 50 in under 20 hours is spectactular and impressive exactly because it's not something the general playerbase either knows how to do or wants to futz with learning how you do it. This is "easy" to do in the same sense that beating the STF and RSF is "easy" for the general playerbase.
[/ QUOTE ]
Uber inspires me to make a quick addendum to my stand-
The devs are entirely justified in imposing whatever limits they want on leveling speed & other reward structures in the game. it's their game, that's their job.
But players will try to find the fastest, easiest, most efficient way to earn rewards, and when they uncover stuff the devs don't like there are two reasonable paths to take:
- Patch the problem and move on.
This has been their solution priot to I14.
- Post clear guidelines, so players know where they stand. Then when the ban stick comes out and characters get axed everyone knows why.
The current situation (no guidelines + arbitrary, unexplained punishment) is ridiculous and unacceptable.
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Yes they are 100% justified in setting limits. If they aren't going to enforce them within the program, they better let people know before they are banned.
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It is an extension of the school of thought that brought us merits. Faster is badder. 1 merit for x min. This is the same thing applied to xp/leveling. And the devs will not consider they might be wrong. When they finally do, COX may just be too far gone.
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This indeed.
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You are making the same mistake Ogon is. You are both defining yourselves as the measuring stick, and then are shocked that other people have different rulers.
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No, you're making the mistake of thinking that I (and maybe Ogon) are so foolish as to think we are good measuring sticks for the rest of the playerbase.
If I was the measuring stick on how fast people could level, we'd all have a lot more 50s next week.
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I know of entire SGs that will level their entire group up from 1 - 50 in that time. I know of one that just created a series of themed characters, clowns, african tribal, and archers were amongst it.
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That doesn't make it a remotely reasonable average. If you are so blindered as to think that just because you know a bunch of people who do it that it's common, you're hopeless in any conversation on the topic. You could know 500 people who can level to 50 in 10 hours and it would not make it close to the speed most people do it in on average.
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2nd What a few people know everyone winds up knowing and usually pretty quickly.
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Yeah, that must be why everyone's all waiting in line in PI to get into Behemoth and Battle Maiden missions. Wait...
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MA pling has not gone away. Not by a very long shot. It is still the preferred method, the auto exemp feature cuts out the need to find mentors.
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You're preaching to the choir. Do you really think I don't know these things? I think you don't know how I play very well. I'm a powergamer. I knew that the MA would be the best PL around unless they gutted its QoL features within three days of its release. (I really didn't mess with it much in beta.)
And yet the continouss broadcast cries for PL teams in every zone have grown far, far less frequent. The lines of security level 10 and under characters standing outside the arc digitizer are essentialy gone. And I would bet you all the inf I have that this was really the change the devs meant to cause. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the devs actually intend to squash all PLing, even in the MA. They just intend to squash most of it.
How the devs went about this was a colossal mistake. But when they first announced that they would go after people who went to town on PLing with the MA, I immediately identified players in the global channels I hang out with who I figured would get the stick, and these are people who PL all the time. One of the idiotic things was that nothing happened for two weeks and we all started figuring that the "real" exploits must have been something much worse. Then, with no word that the hammer was still falling, they all got the boot like two weeks later. Oh, and a bunch of people who didn't PL in the MA at all got axed too. That helped.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No, you're making the mistake of thinking that I (and maybe Ogon) are so foolish as to think we are good measuring sticks for the rest of the playerbase.
If I was the measuring stick on how fast people could level, we'd all have a lot more 50s next week.
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You show me someone who has been here more than three monts I will show you someone who has been on a farm and power leveled. They may not have cared for it may not be their thing but they know what it is and they know how to do it.
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And yet the continouss broadcast cries for PL teams in every zone have grown far, far less frequent. The lines of security level 10 and under characters standing outside the arc digitizer are essentialy gone. And I would bet you all the inf I have that this was really the change the devs meant to cause. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the devs actually intend to squash all PLing, even in the MA. They just intend to squash most of it.
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LOL you think I don't understand ? You don't think I didn't realize positron's missives were badly done attempts to create F.U.D. ? And if you think the powerleveling has gone down you are wrong there. The only thing that has happened is the rate of level rise has gone down and thats because the comm officers have been fixed.
When someone says AE team looking for more 9 times out of 10 they aren't out to enjoy a story.
You talk about my opinion on this matter being everywhere and then you go comment on it, but it seems you haven't read anything I have said. Instead you seem to be arguing with the Another_Fan that lives entirely in your head.
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No, you're making the mistake of thinking that I (and maybe Ogon) are so foolish as to think we are good measuring sticks for the rest of the playerbase.
If I was the measuring stick on how fast people could level, we'd all have a lot more 50s next week.
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You show me someone who has been here more than three monts I will show you someone who has been on a farm and power leveled. They may not have cared for it may not be their thing but they know what it is and they know how to do it.
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So...
If someone has been in this game they know what powerleveling is when they see it then, eh?
And MA, where it was explicitly stated since the day it was announced was not intended to be for PL'ing and farming, you claim can't have this nebulous standard of "know it when you see it"?
Sorry, but you stumbled right into that contradiction. You can't claim that everyone knows what it is after 3 months, but that they somehow forget when they enter the MA building.
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No, you're making the mistake of thinking that I (and maybe Ogon) are so foolish as to think we are good measuring sticks for the rest of the playerbase.
If I was the measuring stick on how fast people could level, we'd all have a lot more 50s next week.
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You show me someone who has been here more than three monts I will show you someone who has been on a farm and power leveled. They may not have cared for it may not be their thing but they know what it is and they know how to do it.
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So...
If someone has been in this game they know what powerleveling is when they see it then, eh?
And MA, where it was explicitly stated since the day it was announced was not intended to be for PL'ing and farming, you claim can't have this nebulous standard of "know it when you see it"?
Sorry, but you stumbled right into that contradiction. You can't claim that everyone knows what it is after 3 months, but that they somehow forget when they enter the MA building.
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Just because someone has done something it doesn't imply they know it when they see it, or that they know anything about it. Many people have ridden in automobiles but have no idea what the Otto Cycle is.
Your second mistake in that post is assuming everyone reads the boards and caught the formerly obscure post you refer to.
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Sorry, but you stumbled right into that contradiction. You can't claim that everyone knows what it is after 3 months, but that they somehow forget when they enter the MA building
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Seeing as I did not make the claim, and your two qualifiers are just wrong would you care to re-edit the post into something coherent ?
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No, you're making the mistake of thinking that I (and maybe Ogon) are so foolish as to think we are good measuring sticks for the rest of the playerbase.
If I was the measuring stick on how fast people could level, we'd all have a lot more 50s next week.
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You show me someone who has been here more than three monts I will show you someone who has been on a farm and power leveled. They may not have cared for it may not be their thing but they know what it is and they know how to do it.
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So...
If someone has been in this game they know what powerleveling is when they see it then, eh?
And MA, where it was explicitly stated since the day it was announced was not intended to be for PL'ing and farming, you claim can't have this nebulous standard of "know it when you see it"?
Sorry, but you stumbled right into that contradiction. You can't claim that everyone knows what it is after 3 months, but that they somehow forget when they enter the MA building.
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Just because someone has done something it doesn't imply they know it when they see it, or that they know anything about it. Many people have ridden in automobiles but have no idea what the Otto Cycle is.
Your second mistake in that post is assuming everyone reads the boards and caught the formerly obscure post you refer to.
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Sorry, but you stumbled right into that contradiction. You can't claim that everyone knows what it is after 3 months, but that they somehow forget when they enter the MA building
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Seeing as I did not make the claim, and your two qualifiers are just wrong would you care to re-edit the post into something coherent ?
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Wave your hands all ya want.
You said that people who have been in the game for 3 months would know what powerleveling is. (this absolutely does imply knowing it when they see it, or they wouldn't actually know what it is.)
Elsewhere you have claimed that it is completely unreasonable to expect the players to know what is "too much" when it comes to powerleveling and that the Devs need to spell it out explicitly.
If people know what powerleveling is as you say they do, then it is hard to imagine that they can't figure out when it is beyond "normal". You propose that somehow they know it, yet when they get in the MA building they could somehow accidentally do it without knowing.
The two positions are at odds with each other. Nothing needs to be edited. Thanks for the offer though.
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You show me someone who has been here more than three monts I will show you someone who has been on a farm and power leveled. They may not have cared for it may not be their thing but they know what it is and they know how to do it.
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I would win that bet hands down. I know people who've never been PL'd, ever.
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LOL you think I don't understand ? You don't think I didn't realize positron's missives were badly done attempts to create F.U.D. ?
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The PLing would have gone down without the FUD. They removed the ease of access. Now you need better builds to farm with because the mobs aren't retardedly weak. (Note that I didn't mind, but I knew they were retardedly weak.) There are a metric boatload of lemmings in the playerbase who won't pursue something like this unless the barier to entry is very low. Now it's higher.
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And if you think the powerleveling has gone down you are wrong there.
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No, I'm not wrong. The number of people involved is down massively. All you need to have to see that this absolutely and inarguably true is a working pair of eyes. You appear to constantly conflate how fast people you know are leveling with how fast the average playerbase is doing so. They are not the same thing.
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When someone says AE team looking for more 9 times out of 10 they aren't out to enjoy a story.
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If you think people are asking for AE teams at even 1/10the rate they used to be, across all zones, then you need to work on that "working pair of eyes" thing.
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You talk about my opinion on this matter being everywhere and then you go comment on it, but it seems you haven't read anything I have said. Instead you seem to be arguing with the Another_Fan that lives entirely in your head.
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No, I'm arguing with the Another_Fan that I've seen posting all over the forums going on about the matter of unstated rules being unfair and the dev's changes not stopping PLing. Yes, the unstated rules are unfair, but you have to be mentally deficient not to know what put you at risk. And the devs weren't out to stop PLing across the board.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The PLing would have gone down without the FUD. They removed the ease of access. Now you need better builds to farm with because the mobs aren't retardedly weak. (Note that I didn't mind, but I knew they were retardedly weak.) There are a metric boatload of lemmings in the playerbase who won't pursue something like this unless the barier to entry is very low. Now it's higher.
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If its higher its not much higher.
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No, I'm not wrong. The number of people involved is down massively. All you need to have to see that this absolutely and inarguably true is a working pair of eyes. You appear to constantly conflate how fast people you know are leveling with how fast the average playerbase is doing so. They are not the same thing.
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An assumption. I am not going on the people I know. I am operating off observed pug behavior. You go into an ae building and you get a tell for a team even on virtue more often than not its still an ae farm. Stories are being formed as often as ever.
Now the total number may be down, but that might just be because it isn't reactivation weekend or the start of the aniversary anymore. But the percentage use of MA is still there.
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If you think people are asking for AE teams at even 1/10the rate they used to be, across all zones, then you need to work on that "working pair of eyes" thing.
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See above. What you are saying is MA use is way down. I won't argue that. The why is another matter.
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No, I'm arguing with the Another_Fan that I've seen posting all over the forums going on about the matter of unstated rules being unfair and the dev's changes not stopping PLing. Yes, the unstated rules are unfair, but you have to be mentally deficient not to know what put you at risk. And the devs weren't out to stop PLing across the board.
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Lol I am at risk ? Not likely. If anything pointing it out in the forums places me at greater risk than my use of MA. The assumption that because I object to injustice renders me guilty of crimes is false.
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You said that people who have been in the game for 3 months would know what powerleveling is. (this absolutely does imply knowing it when they see it, or they wouldn't actually know what it is.)
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You are correct, What I wanted to say and what I wrote were two different things. Re Reading I see that is the case. My fault.
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Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.
Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.
The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.
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Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.
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When it took me 600 hours, people were doing it in a 2xp weekend (approximately 15-20 hours of playing as they would explain it).
So, if I could cut my time to 1/3 that left them at 5-7 hours on a 2xp weekend, no? So a normal, non-2xp would be 10-14 hours for them if they could get the same time reduction rate I was now experiencing.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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The PLing would have gone down without the FUD. They removed the ease of access. Now you need better builds to farm with because the mobs aren't retardedly weak. (Note that I didn't mind, but I knew they were retardedly weak.) There are a metric boatload of lemmings in the playerbase who won't pursue something like this unless the barier to entry is very low. Now it's higher.
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If its higher its not much higher.
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Bull. It isn't even 1/10 of what it was the two weeks the MA was online full bore.
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An assumption. I am not going on the people I know. I am operating off observed pug behavior. You go into an ae building and you get a tell for a team even on virtue more often than not its still an ae farm. Stories are being formed as often as ever.
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No they aren't. You're exaggerating or you were ignorant of just how much it was being used across the board during those two weeks before the hammer fell. I doubt you're ignorant of it, but I suspect exaggeration is likely.
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Now the total number may be down, but that might just be because it isn't reactivation weekend or the start of the aniversary anymore. But the percentage use of MA is still there.
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No, it's not.
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See above. What you are saying is MA use is way down. I won't argue that. The why is another matter.
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You're contradicting yourself. The usage connot be down and the PLing where it was. A massive fraction of the initial use before the Meow change was PLing.
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Lol I am at risk ? Not likely. If anything pointing it out in the forums places me at greater risk than my use of MA. The assumption that because I object to injustice renders me guilty of crimes is false.
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I don't know what you're talking about with respect to risk. I'm describing how I'm familiar with your stand on this from context beyond this thread and nothing more. I'm also not accusing you of any crimes, as that would likely involve stones and glass houses.
I don't have to be anti-PL or even someone who doesn't farm/PL to disagree with what I see as your position on knowledge of what could get people in trouble with all this, just as I don't have to agree with the devs for even making it an issue.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.
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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?
This is the underlying problem with that rationale.
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Exactly. If your SOLE metric is time... then you're simply trying to cover bad game design. You create something that specifically allows your players to do things you don't want them to, (level quicly) and instead of making changes to your product, you put some threat to those that might use your product to it's fullest and retroactively ban accounts for doing just that.
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Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.
Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.
The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.
So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?
I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.
I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."
While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.
IMO.