When is it okay to kick?
By
Aliana Blue,
Posted on: 2009-05-20 08:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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When ever the hell you want, if you are the leader.
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HEIL!
HEIL!!
When I lead teams I typically set ground rules - minimum standards of entry. These rules vary from team to team, but are typically (1) don't split/follow tank, (2) don't scatter mobs, (3) control pets as well as you can. I really don't care if an emp rocks the aura and puts me on follow, really. I build my characters to solo pretty much anything, so it doesn't matter to me whether my teammates are dead-ish weight.
If you're on my team and you have buffs or something, I might ask for them but most of the time I honestly don't care.
The only time I'll kick is if you violate the simple tenets of not screwing the rest of the team. If you're in my team at all, you're contributing because my spawns are bigger, so no worries about leeching. If you're doing stuff that makes it harder for me to kill things, bam. I won't ask twice for you to stop.
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4. Being... Odd.
--- I've got a high tolerance for this, but if your RP experience includes a 10-minute speech about the enemy you've just defeated, and how you plan to preserve justice, then you're OUT... This also applies to people who have macros for every single power.
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But...I have a mage...he casts spells...
Don't worry, I don't plan on teaming with him very often. 
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
I'm of the mind that everyone ON the team needs to contribute something TO the team.
Aura-rocking 'trollers and corrs? Sorry, you gotta do more than that. Use your primaries, damnit.
Tanks hanging in the back? you better have your teleport prompt on, else you're gonna be IN the thick of things, ohh yes you will....
Blasters doing leeroy jenkins on every spawn? Unless you've got the "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies" trick down pat, stay back and let the tank do the tanking. See "teleport prompt", above, it works the other way, too.
Brutes too chicken to charge? Let me put that size fifteen Witch's Boot up your reluctant heiney, or GET IT IN GEAR!
... I could go on, but I won't. If I catch someone leeching, they're gone. Besides, one less person spamming useless power effects = less lag when we get to the Dreaded Canyon of Dying While Waiting For Powers To Fire.
"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."
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QR: What becomes a legend most, I mean what deserves a kick the most....?
Answer: TANKS WHO REFUSE TO TANK! These are few things more annoying [rockin' the aura might be one of them].
Was on an AE team the other night with a tank who was firmly in the back, doing nothing. This was a level 30+ Tank, mind you. This was all well & good until our leading Tank d'ced.
Teammate #1: "Okay Shy Little Girl [not her real name], you're up! 
"
Tank: "ummmmmm.... no thank you."
Teammate #2: "hey, *you're* the tank now. We got no one else."
Tank: "Errr...... no..... I'm new at this."
Me: "But you're level 35, how can you be new?" [although I already knew how, dear reader, trust me]
Tank: "Stop being mean to me, you guys."
Teammate #3: "Here, I'll tell you how to do it. First you.... [explaination of basic Tank behavior follows]."
Teammate #4: "Stop being mean to her you guys! She's NEW!"
Me: "Look, that's not being mean, we are trying to help her. Because trust me if for instance she gets onto a TF and refuses to Tank, then she IS gonna hear some truly mean stuff and this'll seem like nothing."
Tank: "Stop it you guys I don't want to."
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That'd be the kick point for me.
Dec out.
Kick them both, if they're not up to snuff. You're runnign a team, not a charity. There is no reason to accept performance less than what you consdier acceptable. you don't owe them, or any other PuG player, anything. By the same token, however, you must obviously be aware that the higher you set the bar, the fewer people will be able to meet it. Those who insist on teaming only with the best of the best of the best for difficult tasks (myself included) are certain to sometimes find themselves playing alone. Strike the balance that maximizes your enjoyment and appologize to no one.
Also, tanks, as I so often remind people, are merely an inadequate substitute for proper control. ;D
Sorry, but I couldn't resist.
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Bad_Influence wrote:
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QR: What becomes a legend most, I mean what deserves a kick the most....?
Answer: TANKS WHO REFUSE TO TANK! These are few things more annoying [rockin' the aura might be one of them].
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^
this
There is NOTHING in game that gets under my skin quite like a timid tank. (Not even rewdboi jerkholes) Why the heck would you play that archtype if you don't want to be the one to jump in first?
[removes cathartic rant]
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Becuase you're a noob, and choose tha class that has the best survivability withotu really understanding anything about the strategic setup of the classes, or MMOs in general. Altenratively because you're slightly less incompetant, but you are accustomed to less survivable character types and although you know that you know intelectually that a tank should be able to effortlessly withstand the punishment that would kill your blaster, you haven't yet acclimated your less conscious play behavior to that fact.
Or was that rhetorical question?
Finally (reading through the thread by increments), if someone has failed to live up ot your standards, kicking them is fine (preferably after calling tehm to task for it and letting theme xplain themselves, but sometimes you can just tell that that won't help). Stringing them along to the final mission adn then kicking them to prevent them from recieving a reward is just asinine. Its petty and vindictive, adn a much greater hindrence to their fun than anything they did to you. It doesn't make you clever - it makes you an [censored].
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I'm of the mind that everyone ON the team needs to contribute something TO the team.
Aura-rocking 'trollers and corrs? Sorry, you gotta do more than that. Use your primaries, damnit.
Tanks hanging in the back? you better have your teleport prompt on, else you're gonna be IN the thick of things, ohh yes you will....
Blasters doing leeroy jenkins on every spawn? Unless you've got the "Rocks Fall Everyone Dies" trick down pat, stay back and let the tank do the tanking. See "teleport prompt", above, it works the other way, too.
Brutes too chicken to charge? Let me put that size fifteen Witch's Boot up your reluctant heiney, or GET IT IN GEAR!
... I could go on, but I won't. If I catch someone leeching, they're gone. Besides, one less person spamming useless power effects = less lag when we get to the Dreaded Canyon of Dying While Waiting For Powers To Fire.
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I'm so used to doing everything solo on my MM that even if i did group I'd want to be the tank and pullling everything. I have a feeling ppl would be trying to tell me to stay back and do less becasuse I'm so used to doing it all. Otherwise all I'd be doing was keeping everyone FF buffed and letting my droids assist the tank. Thats as close to standing back and doing nothing as anyone else has described .
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
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There is a simple rule of thumb, I that once came up in a discussion I ahd on teh tanker forums, Inokis - if you can do it (whatever "it" is - but ussually it involves opening a battle ahead of or without the tank, as you suggest), and you succeed, and no one on the team gets killed as a result, then more power to you. Its when you do it, and fail, and die, and the team gets whiped as a result, that there's a problem.
In videogames, as in life, success (or failure) are what count in the final analysis.
And you're playing city of villains - there are no such things as tanks where you come from. Brutes make a passable imitation, but they don't shrug of 4-digit hits like rainwater the way their bigger (if softer-hitting) cousins do. To be frank, they need someone to help take the pressure off during tough battles, and masterminds are designed almost explicitely to do that.
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When is it okay to kick?
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When they're down. With a steel toed boot.
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There is a simple rule of thumb, I that once came up in a discussion I ahd on teh tanker forums, Inokis - if you can do it (whatever "it" is - but ussually it involves opening a battle ahead of or without the tank, as you suggest), and you succeed, and no one on the team gets killed as a result, then more power to you. Its when you do it, and fail, and die, and the team gets whiped as a result, that there's a problem.
In videogames, as in life, success (or failure) are what count in the final analysis.
And you're playing city of villains - there are no such things as tanks where you come from. Brutes make a passable imitation, but they don't shrug of 4-digit hits like rainwater the way their bigger (if softer-hitting) cousins do. To be frank, they need someone to help take the pressure off during tough battles, and masterminds are designed almost explicitely to do that.
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Well, like I said I do have FF so that might help take the edge off more. I also use Presence Power Pool, so anything that I needed to take off to help I could. The key for MMs is that they have to hold the aggro to make their tanking skills effective. Now if supremacy affected teammembers, then the damage would be mitigated further making MM's more of the tank go to guy. I have a feeling it was meant to only affect henchmen for this very reason though.
Honestly, I've been trying to play a brute, and I've found brutes a much more difficult AT to keep alive than my MM ever was at the same lvl.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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Doesn't that slow attack speed though? Why wouldn't shield do well for it? Isn't it an alternative to the armor powers?
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
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My rule of thumb is this.
I Run alot of MoSTFs, LGTF , ITFs i usally build my team around what will get the job done fastest and easiest. So ill build my teams with certain ATs and powersets. If i invited u cuz ur a arch/emp fender and i askd youon team to heal, dont sit around blasting, if i wanted a blaster id of invited 1. If i get a constant AFKer, i eamn 3-4 times for 5mins eash or they just put me on follow for 10mins, i let them continue TF. Than @ final mission befor completion like befor i kill LR, or Rom or even last ambush in gen room u get a big fat KICK
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So, if someone isn't playing the way you want them to, you'll lead them along, and kick them before they can get any rewards.
That's a REAL dick thing to do. That's far worse that someone going AFK, or just trying their best with some of their own powersets.
If I've got some good powersets, I'm going to use both of them. If that means I can't spend 100% of my time healing, then so be it, if it's helping the team more than it's hurting.
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Read my post, if were running a ITF for example and it takes the team 40mins to complete and ur afk and not helping for 25mins of it because u enter mish go afk.
Than leave when "EXIT MISSION" pops up. To only enter next door and go afk. Ya guess what imma let you ur getting away with it doing NOTHING and getting all the xp/inf/merit REWARDS. HA think not KICKKKKKKK.
Also i really dont care about ur "other" power set, koo were on a MoSTF ur a emp/arch fender. ( i specifically invited you and you know this to be a HEALER) if everyones buffed/healed etc sure blaster away drop sum ROA on sum foes. But if you blasting away while 1/2 ur team just got rocked by a AOE and ur still blasting and not HEALING (what you were invited to do) ur wrong. Like i said befor if i wanted a blaster id of invited 1.
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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Doesn't that slow attack speed though? Why wouldn't shield do well for it? Isn't it an alternative to the armor powers?
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Haven't used it much myself, but I'm pretty positive shield is one of the "weaker" defensive sets. I'd seen a lot of people mention taking fighting to make it more survivable. But Granite is just insanely strong, it used to be Stone's panic button before they made it a toggle. But yes it slows your attacks and movement speed. One of my friends uses hasten and swift with 2 slots to compensate but with stone you only need a total of 2 toggles running at most since only rooted can be active at the same time as granite.
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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Doesn't that slow attack speed though? Why wouldn't shield do well for it? Isn't it an alternative to the armor powers?
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Haven't used it much myself, but I'm pretty positive shield is one of the "weaker" defensive sets. I'd seen a lot of people mention taking fighting to make it more survivable. But Granite is just insanely strong, it used to be Stone's panic button before they made it a toggle. But yes it slows your attacks and movement speed. One of my friends uses hasten and swift with 2 slots to compensate but with stone you only need a total of 2 toggles running at most since only rooted can be active at the same time as granite.
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Thx for the info. I may have to remake him in light of your details.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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Doesn't that slow attack speed though? Why wouldn't shield do well for it? Isn't it an alternative to the armor powers?
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Haven't used it much myself, but I'm pretty positive shield is one of the "weaker" defensive sets. I'd seen a lot of people mention taking fighting to make it more survivable. But Granite is just insanely strong, it used to be Stone's panic button before they made it a toggle. But yes it slows your attacks and movement speed. One of my friends uses hasten and swift with 2 slots to compensate but with stone you only need a total of 2 toggles running at most since only rooted can be active at the same time as granite.
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Thx for the info. I may have to remake him in light of your details.
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Keep in mind, granite does have one weakness. It has no defense against Psychic.
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They are. Brutes are NOT the tanks of CoV, as some people suggest. They are meant to have to work in concert with masterminds to mitigate damage through agro management. tryign to take on an entire room, or even an entire +2/+3 spawn without anyone else who can take a hit to help them is all ina day's work for a tanker, but brutes, or at least most brutes, simply can't pull it off.
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So which brutes can? Mine is a Dark/Shield.
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Stone can do it pretty well once they get Granite Armor.
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Doesn't that slow attack speed though? Why wouldn't shield do well for it? Isn't it an alternative to the armor powers?
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Haven't used it much myself, but I'm pretty positive shield is one of the "weaker" defensive sets. I'd seen a lot of people mention taking fighting to make it more survivable. But Granite is just insanely strong, it used to be Stone's panic button before they made it a toggle. But yes it slows your attacks and movement speed. One of my friends uses hasten and swift with 2 slots to compensate but with stone you only need a total of 2 toggles running at most since only rooted can be active at the same time as granite.
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Thx for the info. I may have to remake him in light of your details.
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Keep in mind, granite does have one weakness. It has no defense against Psychic.
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Yes, thats one reason when I was skimming through it i avoided it but I'll look through and see what I can come up with through the various options other than shield.
Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
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Y'know, I'm glad that I've been on TFs that are more a dream team than a horror story.
I didn't read the whole thread, but wanted to pop in with a couple remarks:
1) I don't know if it's the Steam deal or what, but I have seen a ton of no-vet-badge players out there. I tend to find noobishness cute if perpetrated by a genuine noob. Attempt to teach before attempting to punish seems a good rule when dealing with new players.
2) Playernotes are great. Using a playernote can help you avoid playing with a player in the future since they are global (too bad they don't show up in the search window, but that's another story). Make sure to set them to "always on" in the options, this will put them above a players head (only if they have been rated) as you travel the city.
Also, the best thing about playernotes is that it is a great way to alleviate stress without kicking or punishing a player. Take down the note, feel some self-satisfaction, and finish out the TF/arc/etc. with that idiot running around with the 1 lil star over his/her head.
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Wow, that sucks. I had always thought that the prior rule was in place so folks with connection issues wouldn't have all their time wasted in a last minute crash. It also made kicking folks while on the last AV a less harsh threat, as well.
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