Average unweighted resistance of mobs.
By
Aramar,
Posted on: 2009-05-19 19:15 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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(And also I'm a chick)
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Girls play this game?!?!?!?...
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COOTIES!!!!
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PPD & Resistance Epic Archetypes
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Wow, that is every bit as bad as I thought it was.
Castle, is there any chance we can get lethal damage attacks boosted, across the board, to make up for the fact that they're almost universally resisted?
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Yeah, this would be a good thing. Or perhaps, since they're, you know, cutting and piercing, they could have a certain percentage of their damage be unresistable, or something, to simulate their armor-piercing nature.
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- Thomas Jefferson
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Wow, that is every bit as bad as I thought it was.
Castle, is there any chance we can get lethal damage attacks boosted, across the board, to make up for the fact that they're almost universally resisted?
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Yeah, this would be a good thing. Or perhaps, since they're, you know, cutting and piercing, they could have a certain percentage of their damage be unresistable, or something, to simulate their armor-piercing nature.
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Like, say, perhaps... -Def in a lot of them? 
This may help me champion the "Armor Breaker" system.
The idea is a single target attack on every melee set (yes only melee sets) that will "break" resistances on a single target for a limited amount of time. The method:
Detoggle + Resist Cap set to zero to a specific damage type. If you are MA, you set the resist cap to Smashing to zero. If you are katana, you set the resist cap to lethal to zero, etc etc.
This makes sure no one does more damage than base against foes without resistance but helps break the resistance disadvantage in a single target fashion.
The effect should be added to the worst DPA ST attack in the set. Intentionally, it should not be optimal to do this on a power you would normally use in an optimized attack chain.
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This may help me champion the "Armor Breaker" system.
The idea is a single target attack on every melee set (yes only melee sets) that will "break" resistances on a single target for a limited amount of time. The method:
Detoggle + Resist Cap set to zero to a specific damage type. If you are MA, you set the resist cap to Smashing to zero. If you are katana, you set the resist cap to lethal to zero, etc etc.
This makes sure no one does more damage than base against foes without resistance but helps break the resistance disadvantage in a single target fashion.
The effect should be added to the worst DPA ST attack in the set. Intentionally, it should not be optimal to do this on a power you would normally use in an optimized attack chain.
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Sounds neat in theory, but I can already see huge problems with this.
First, putting it on a "poor DPA attack" won't matter. Builds would become catered to reaching the magical recharge number required to turn their melee character into a "PermaBreaker". You'd have to set the debuff period so short to compensate that it would become a useless attribute for this purpose, which leads into my next issue...
Stacking Breakers. Or more specifically, stacking a damage type that a breaker... breaks. You run your melee in, hit your breaker, and the rest of the team spams the appropriate attack. If this doesn't concern you, then perhaps the next will...
Rotating Breakers. Here, you stack your damage similar to the Breaker Stacker group, except once one break wears off, the next in the rotation uses it, which effectively keeps the target at 0 resistance to whatever damage you're focusing on. It honestly won't matter which you focus with here because the resistance would be 0 regardless.
In effect, this turns what is usually a more solo-oriented type of character into a character that not only solos well, but can group with others "solo-ers" and completely rip AVs a new one without trying. Not implying that it was impossible/difficult before, but this would utterly trivialize it without much thought involved.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Okay, there you guys go, updated spreadsheet with level range limiters in groups of 10. Should be sufficient enough.
(And also I'm a chick)
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Out of curiosity, how did you handle critters with multiple sources of resistance and/or toggles (Toggles being notorious for only one critter in a spawn being allowed to use a toggle at once, and then, only for 15 seconds at a time...)
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Castle, if this is the case, then the Possessed Scientists are either broken or just not obeying the rules. I fought a group of Earth Melee/FF Possessed Scientists in the Portal Corp parking lot yesterday, and despite having 2 level 30 Acc IOs in my attacks, I ended up with less than 9% chance to-hit, apparently due to their overlapping dispersion bubbles.
...I forgot what experience means.
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First, putting it on a "poor DPA attack" won't matter. Builds would become catered to reaching the magical recharge number required to turn their melee character into a "PermaBreaker". You'd have to set the debuff period so short to compensate that it would become a useless attribute for this purpose, which leads into my next issue...
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Actually, PermaBreaker is not what I attempt to avoid, instead I aim for it. Bad DPA attacks already are in very low recharge. Spamming them all the time just lowers your DPS, they tend to have bad damage/cast time ratios. Adding them to your attack chain lowers your dps, spamming them, in some cases, destroys it. This means that going into "armor breaker" mode would still result in lesser DPS than doing your normal attack chain against a regular foe. If the resist was low enough, like 5%, you may even be lowering your output relative than just sucking in the lower damage and keep going normally.
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Stacking Breakers. Or more specifically, stacking a damage type that a breaker... breaks. You run your melee in, hit your breaker, and the rest of the team spams the appropriate attack. If this doesn't concern you, then perhaps the next will...
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As noted: breaker is meant to be perma. Setting the Resist Cap to zero can't be taken any lower. 5 Armor Breakers on to of each-other would still keep the resist cap at zero.
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completely rip AVs a new one without trying.
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This is like saying that fighting an AV that does not has resist to my damage type would be as easy as not trying. However, I actually would make the Armor Breaker behave different with AVs, where it perhaps only sets the cap to 20% against AVs.
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Okay, there you guys go, updated spreadsheet with level range limiters in groups of 10. Should be sufficient enough.
(And also I'm a chick)
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Out of curiosity, how did you handle critters with multiple sources of resistance and/or toggles (Toggles being notorious for only one critter in a spawn being allowed to use a toggle at once, and then, only for 15 seconds at a time...)
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Castle, if this is the case, then the Possessed Scientists are either broken or just not obeying the rules. I fought a group of Earth Melee/FF Possessed Scientists in the Portal Corp parking lot yesterday, and despite having 2 level 30 Acc IOs in my attacks, I ended up with less than 9% chance to-hit, apparently due to their overlapping dispersion bubbles.
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Sure you didn't aggro two overlapping spawns? A group is a spawn, if you got 2 groups, each can have one toggle up.
Psi resist has to be worse then lethal. Lethal may have a broader variety of mobs who possess resistance, but mobs who are resistant to psi are usually VERY resistant to psi. Sometimes be as much as 50%.
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First, putting it on a "poor DPA attack" won't matter. Builds would become catered to reaching the magical recharge number required to turn their melee character into a "PermaBreaker". You'd have to set the debuff period so short to compensate that it would become a useless attribute for this purpose, which leads into my next issue...
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Actually, PermaBreaker is not what I attempt to avoid, instead I aim for it. Bad DPA attacks already are in very low recharge. Spamming them all the time just lowers your DPS, they tend to have bad damage/cast time ratios. Adding them to your attack chain lowers your dps, spamming them, in some cases, destroys it. This means that going into "armor breaker" mode would still result in lesser DPS than doing your normal attack chain against a regular foe. If the resist was low enough, like 5%, you may even be lowering your output relative than just sucking in the lower damage and keep going normally.
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Stacking Breakers. Or more specifically, stacking a damage type that a breaker... breaks. You run your melee in, hit your breaker, and the rest of the team spams the appropriate attack. If this doesn't concern you, then perhaps the next will...
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As noted: breaker is meant to be perma. Setting the Resist Cap to zero can't be taken any lower. 5 Armor Breakers on to of each-other would still keep the resist cap at zero.
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completely rip AVs a new one without trying.
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This is like saying that fighting an AV that does not has resist to my damage type would be as easy as not trying. However, I actually would make the Armor Breaker behave different with AVs, where it perhaps only sets the cap to 20% against AVs.
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You didn't explain your idea very well, then.
I was never talking about normal foes with my points. Normal foes fall over to melee easily enough that it won't matter. Your dismissal of the player's ability to cater their build around a single power is also pretty naive. Isn't there a saying that goes "If your attack chain isn't Headsplitter > Headsplitter > Headsplitter, then you need more recharge"?
At worst, you'd have builds that cycle between the breaker attack and one, or maybe two, "filler attacks". With an AV's resistance to your damage down to 0, it will far outpace the normal DPS chains that let you solo certain AVs. In fact, this will let every melee character have the capability to solo any AV, something that's generally designed to be a group thing.
Intending on it to be permanent only compounds this problem, since there is no need to put multiple breakers on the team if a single one can keep it going forever on their own. Before, this might have just been limited to select builds (albeit, a build that everyone who can afford it would have), but with it perma out of the box, that need is gone. This also invites groups to stack heavily on certain damage types just to take advantage of what I feel is something really broken to begin with. Grab a melee, find out his primary, and load up the rest of the team with characters who share his "breaker type".
And yes, I know you said you'd balance it different for an AV, but by then, what would be the point? These classes, in a group, have the tools needed to pump out the DPS required to kill them, so why would they need the boost?
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
I am more surprised by
Ps 6.04%
To 6.64%
So much for "exotic" damage type when robots have huge resistance on them. The thing with Psi and Toxic is that the mob either has a lot of resistance against them or very very little (or nothing).
And poor Lethal....
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I am more surprised by
Ps 6.04%
To 6.64%
So much for "exotic" damage type when robots have huge resistance on them. The thing with Psi and Toxic is that the mob either has a lot of resistance against them or very very little (or nothing).
And poor Lethal....
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I still don't get why people say 'poor lethal'.
Considering that a large portion of Scrapper primaries (Claws, Broadsword, Dual Blades, Katana, Spines*) do Lethal damage and most people state that Scrappers solo exceptionally well, often to the point of being broken (Werner, BillZBubba, Shredmonkey [Though I somehow think Shred's DM, isn't he?])...
We can reasonably conclude that Lethal damage is fine, it's the poor mobs you should be feeling sorry for. >.>
EDIT: Oops, forgot my *. Spines actually does most of it's damage as Lethal, with only a portion actually coming up as Toxic, usually as a DoT added onto the damage.
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I am more surprised by
Ps 6.04%
To 6.64%
So much for "exotic" damage type when robots have huge resistance on them. The thing with Psi and Toxic is that the mob either has a lot of resistance against them or very very little (or nothing).
And poor Lethal....
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It has been said for a long time that Psi and Toxic were the most resisted damage types in the game by players that are not obsessed with "but smash/lethal suxors"
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Considering that a large portion of Scrapper primaries (Claws, Broadsword, Dual Blades, Katana, Spines*) do Lethal damage and most people state that Scrappers solo exceptionally well, often to the point of being broken (Werner, BillZBubba, Shredmonkey [Though I somehow think Shred's DM, isn't he?])...
We can reasonably conclude that Lethal damage is fine, it's the poor mobs you should be feeling sorry for. >.>
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Scrappers aren't the only AT to deal Lethal damage. The lower you go on the damage totem pole, the bigger a problem this becomes.
As for the Armor Breaker system - I don't like it. If a critter is designed to be hard to kill, this can completely circumvent that. (ex: Recluse with the Red Tower up.) That reduces the options a developer has for designing content.
Fair enough there, but if Lethal was near as bad off as people claim it is, then Scrappers wouldn't be doing nearly as hot as they are.
It's frequently over-stated.
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You didn't explain your idea very well, then.
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Very likely, I just skimmed through the basics. I went through a lot of detail a long time ago, but that thread has long been purged.
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Isn't there a saying that goes "If your attack chain isn't Headsplitter > Headsplitter > Headsplitter, then you need more recharge"?
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And if the attack chain goes Slash > Slash > Slash > Slash, then you need a better build, or player... or get the heck out of Outbreak already
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I was never talking about normal foes with my points. Normal foes fall over to melee easily enough that it won't matter.
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I consider Bosses and Lts normal foes, and there are plenty with insane resistances. CoT Arch-Mages, are listed on that chart as having 75% resist to all damage types. Many rikti
Slash, would be the BS power I would suggest be made Armor Breaker. Many players don't even take the power seeking optimal attacks. Most Rikti have 30% resist against smash/lethal/energy that gives other sets an extreme advantage in the high end game.
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At worst, you'd have builds that cycle between the breaker attack and one, or maybe two, "filler attacks". With an AV's resistance to your damage down to 0, it will far outpace the normal DPS chains that let you solo certain AVs.
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I'd force the duration to 10 seconds. That would force quite a drop in DPS to be able to sustain it permanently solo. As for AVs i already corrected that detail on taking that only as down as 20%
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In fact, this will let every melee character have the capability to solo any AV, something that's generally designed to be a group thing.
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Why would it? Marauder (just piking a drastic example from that chart) resists 50% of all smash damage, but he takes full damage from lethal/fire/cold/energy/negative/toxic and even takes bonus damage from Psionic.
How would that make suddenly "soloing the AV" trivial if (assuming setting the cap to zero and thats not what I propose) it would put the Smashing sets at the same level as the lethal ones?
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Intending on it to be permanent only compounds this problem, since there is no need to put multiple breakers on the team if a single one can keep it going forever on their own.
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There is if there are mixed player types. A smashing set woud just break smashing resistance. A lethal set would just break lethal resistance, etc etc.
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Before, this might have just been limited to select builds (albeit, a build that everyone who can afford it would have), but with it perma out of the box, that need is gone.
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I am not sure what you mean. If you mean -res, it actually is weaker against foes with resitance than against regular foes. Not that the -res proc (that is only available to certain lethal sets in a reliable manner) was too expensive anyways. It is dirt cheap.
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This also invites groups to stack heavily on certain damage types just to take advantage of what I feel is something really broken to begin with. Grab a melee, find out his primary, and load up the rest of the team with characters who share his "breaker type".
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Share his damage type I understand, share his breaker type I don't. As noted, there is no use in stacking it.
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And yes, I know you said you'd balance it different for an AV, but by then, what would be the point?
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The point is that certain AVs are insane on their resistance. Akarist is an Arch Mage so he has 75% resistance. Quite a few pretorians have 50% resistance. Lowering this to 20% would make a huge difference.
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These classes, in a group, have the tools needed to pump out the DPS required to kill them, so why would they need the boost?
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Very specific group compositions which this game designers insits should not be required outside of specific content (LRSF, SMTF.) Besides, to overcome 50% resistance you would need about 200% worth of damage buffs or -100% damage resistance. It is easier to kick your smashing members in favor of non-smashing ones than to find the specific defender/defender combos that can yield those buffs/debuffs.
With Armor Breaking, those buffs still enhance damage as they would with any non-resistant AV.
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As for the Armor Breaker system - I don't like it. If a critter is designed to be hard to kill, this can completely circumvent that. (ex: Recluse with the Red Tower up.) That reduces the options a developer has for designing content.
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It can be setup precisely to be useless in situations like that. The amount of such situations is not that high to customize the Armor Breaker not to work there.
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All three charts show fire being the big winner with lethal the loser.
Suck it, scrappers!
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waitaminute... that's mean. Good thing we get crits!
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and fire melee and FE......
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This may help me champion the "Armor Breaker" system.
The idea is a single target attack on every melee set (yes only melee sets) that will "break" resistances on a single target for a limited amount of time. The method:
Detoggle + Resist Cap set to zero to a specific damage type. If you are MA, you set the resist cap to Smashing to zero. If you are katana, you set the resist cap to lethal to zero, etc etc.
This makes sure no one does more damage than base against foes without resistance but helps break the resistance disadvantage in a single target fashion.
The effect should be added to the worst DPA ST attack in the set. Intentionally, it should not be optimal to do this on a power you would normally use in an optimized attack chain.
[/ QUOTE ]I like this idea. I could get behind it 100% if it only had one thing added to it. Make sure AVs/Heroes/GMs are not immune to this. What I hate more than nothing else in this game is to fight an av and they use their tier 9 and I am pretty much stuck doing 0 damage for the next 3 minutes. Seriously no one should have 100% resistance cap. If there could be a way to hell at least do 10% damage I'd be happy instead of being totally useless for 3 minutes.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Considering that a large portion of Scrapper primaries (Claws, Broadsword, Dual Blades, Katana, Spines*) do Lethal damage and most people state that Scrappers solo exceptionally well, often to the point of being broken (Werner, BillZBubba, Shredmonkey [Though I somehow think Shred's DM, isn't he?])...
We can reasonably conclude that Lethal damage is fine, it's the poor mobs you should be feeling sorry for. >.>
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Scrappers aren't the only AT to deal Lethal damage. The lower you go on the damage totem pole, the bigger a problem this becomes.
As for the Armor Breaker system - I don't like it. If a critter is designed to be hard to kill, this can completely circumvent that. (ex: Recluse with the Red Tower up.) That reduces the options a developer has for designing content.
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Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Fair enough there, but if Lethal was near as bad off as people claim it is, then Scrappers wouldn't be doing nearly as hot as they are.
It's frequently over-stated.
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In general, you're right. However, I will say that when lethal resists are bad, they can be really bad:
<ul type="square">[*]Malta - all their lethal resistances are either 25% or 50%, averaging at 32%. Smashing (second most resisted) varies between 20% and 30% averaging at 22%.[*]Anti-Matter/Neuron's minions - they all have 25% res to lethal.[*]Psychic Clockwork - all resist lethal between 15% to 30% (avg 23%)[/list]
Granted, those are the most extreme examples that I could come up with off the top of my head, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. Full missions (or heaven help you, arcs) with nothing but highly resistance enemies is where "lethal sucks" really rings true.
(Man do I hate Tina Macintyre's arc on lethal characters. Ungh...)
Considering some of the stuff I've done with my Dark/Psi defender, I'd have to say that 25% resistance is outright laughable. I cringe every time I'm expected to do missions with Council/5th Column, Arachnos, or Banished Pantheon with her because even with Tar Patch, it's just plain ridiculous how hard my stuff gets resisted.
I've been on the end of the resistance shaft when it comes to certain enemy groups, so I can sort of understand what you mean, but it's by far not the most damaging thing ever.
Even heavily lethal-resistant EBs, I've torn through on my Scrappers. It just takes me a while longer then I normally could otherwise, and I'm usually gasping for breath at the end of it. Often times, it can be a closer thing then I'd like. I don't doubt, however, that I could likely achieve the same feat on a Blaster or Defender (in the case of the defender, eventually; Probably after I stop crying about the prospect).
Psi-resistant EB, though? Screw that, I'd rather go solo Tyrant with an empty Insp tray.
there's a couple CoT bosses post 40 that i've run into (mage bosses) that had 50% smashing resistance
Castle, Starsman explained what I did, yeah. People can do what they like: they can assume an enemy is toggled...naked of toggles...the hover-over notes on specific cells will also note when an enemy contains an effects-others power like Fortitude, and what it does. If an enemy has MULTIPLE effects, well they're all in the same note box. The notes only consider the cell in question, like Ranged Defense or Hold Resistance or Lethal Resistance. As well as any issues of mez resistance like holds lasting half as long as normal. Pretty simple! I didn't want to overclutter it with extra entries, plus I really suck at spreadsheet things involving anything more complicated than formulas of +-*/ stuff. SO notes and "do it in your own head with what you think is appropriate" are my tactics.
Enemy Resistances - Damage, Mez and Defense
Enemy XP Mods
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