Which Power set for Tanks is the most Survivable?
By
Acyl,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 14:09 in Player Questions
You almost have to rate Granite separate from Stone, since it's incompatible with the other armors and makes such a drastic difference. If you're considering Stone Armor as a whole, though, obviously it's going to come in #1 for survivability, trading a lack of maneuverability and a hefty recharge debuff to get that #1 spot (though that can be largely mitigated with Speed Boost).
As for the others, it's going to vary based on what you're fighting and the situation in general. More survivable versus three 8-man spawns on Invincible or more survivable versus AV and Giant Monsters? More survivable versus Carnies or more survivable versus Malta? There's too many variables. Some powersets will pull ahead in some niches (Dark's great against Psy, for instance) and drop behind in others.
Ranking's just kind of silly given how variable it is.
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You almost have to rate Granite separate from Stone, since it's incompatible with the other armors and makes such a drastic difference. If you're considering Stone Armor as a whole, though, obviously it's going to come in #1 for survivability, trading a lack of maneuverability and a hefty recharge debuff to get that #1 spot (though that can be largely mitigated with Speed Boost).
[/ QUOTE ]Outside of Granite, though, I'd place Stone below Inv.
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1.Stone
2.WP
3.Inv. (although only edged out by WP barely)
4.Dark
4.Ice
(-Yes that's two '4's' I rate them so close, it's a tie for me)
6.Shields
7.Fire
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Sounds good. Excluding WP and Dark (because I don't have any experience with them), I'd rank the remaining ones in that order.
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*This is without Tough/Weave added since adding Tough and weave improves all the same.
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It improves them by the same NUMBERS but the actual effect will vary. Adding Weave to a fire tank will not have the same impact on survivability as adding it to an ice tank.
As for IO'ing, I don't know if I would shift rankings around. If you use IO's wisely, they have a huge impact on any tank. I have an invuln with Tough and Aid Self. After I IO'ed him, I never used Aid Self again except when tanking Lord Recluse on the STF and may respec out of it. I gave him 300% regen with IO's.
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Soft-capped Invulnerability will outperform a Willpower tank, in my opinion. In fact, I would put them on par with Stone tankers. Certainly more maneuverable.
I would put Ice and Willpower on the same plane. I have no experience with Dark; it may be up there too.
All good thoughts and opinions, so it's situational, well let's just take the whole game into consideration. Don't get to hung up on situational, think broader strokes. Like Superman is pretty much invulnerable to almost anything, yet get him around magic and he has issues; however, he overcomes them. So, if this were a comic book, what power would you choose for you UBER MAN, not counting Stone/Granite Armor. Would you choose Invulnerablity over WP because it could out perform it most of the time. Would you shy away from story arcs with carnie or Rikti, or RWZ Raid, or TF's? Would you fall short in LGTF or ITF. I put WP above Inv. because it's like the batman of Defenses, it does everything, so for most of the game you are very survivable. I could be wrong though, I haven't played an Inv. late game, so I'm not going to say I know first hand. What I will say is that I've seen late game WP out perform Inv. many times. Although all the Inv. could have been combinations of both terrible players, poor power choices, bad slotting, wrong IO's or only SO's, I don't think that could apply to all, but all WP's I've been on teams with have done gernarally better, or survived longer than an Inv. Even more so on RWZ Raids and ITF's. Once again this is just my opinion and I can't say one way or another untill I have played both.
I've played both WP and Inv tanks, plus I've discussed the sets a fair bit with friends who play 'em.
This is just an opinion...but the way I see it, out of the box, using a basic build, WP is better than Inv in most circumstances. As you rightly point out, WP does a lot, and does it quite well.
But if you throw enough IOs into Inv...well, a properly IO'd Inv will outperform an IO'd WP.
EDIT: I suppose I should explain that reasoning. Well, as others have pointed out, it's not hard to throw +def set bonuses on an Inv tanker and hit softcap versus most typed damage - including smashing/lethal. Everything except psi and of course toxic, really. And on such a tanker, with the way set bonuses work now, you'd have decent positionals also, against such damage.
You might even have enough slots left over for some +regen on the side. That's huge. Thus an IO'd Inv can have massive def, on top of good resistance, and maybe some +regen. It's also possible to cram a lot of recharge in there and get good milage out of Dull Pain. Maybe you can't do all those things at once, but it gives some idea of what a top-end Inv build can accomplish.
WP? Well, you can IO a WP for +def as well, but without Invincibility it doesn't go as far. You can softcap versus exotics, easily, but it'd be much harder to cap vs. S/L...or positionals, for that matter.
You can get quite a bit of milage putting +regen and +hp bonuses on a WP; obviously high HP and regen are WP's strengths. But regen can be overwhelmed more easily than high defense, so even that ain't always a winner.
@Acyl
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To be completely honest, I really think most of the Tanker primaries can handle EVERYTHING. Yes, some of them will need to fill holes with IOs, but what else are you gonna spend your influence on as a Tanker?
I'm gonna say a properly-built Tanker can withstand anything, no matter the Primary.
Agreed, really. Granite's uberness is well known. Inv got a lot of oomph from the recent buffs, and the changes to defense set bonuses (to make 'em provide both typed and positional). WP's always been great on a tank, since HP boost and regen go a loooong way on tank base stats.
Dark has resists across the board and an incredible heal, plus nice utility auras. Ice similarly has crowd control and survival toys, plus good def. Shield is similar, I think -built along the utility and team synergy philosophy, but the def's good enough and it benefits well from IOs.
I'm not sure about Fire. I don't have one, and I don't know any current Fire tank players. But though the base resistances aren't great, I'm sure fighting pool adds a lot of milage, and healing flames looks quite good. Plus, hell, if you're Fire/ you're probably flipping out and killing stuff anyway.
There aren't really any dud tank sets right now...there's nothing perceived to be really bad. I think most would agree Fire isn't as tough, but when it comes to ranking the rest, well...
@Acyl
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Considering which is better to have on your team... I think it has a lot to do with the way you play as well. I've seen a lot of crappy stone tanks.. who most likely got wind of it being so tough and decided to make one, but don't even know how to use it well. I've seen many scrappers tank better than some stone jokers.
It also has a lot to do with what support you have on your teams. If you have a good group, it doesn't matter what you are. You can get buffs to cover for your weaknesses. (Even for stone, that's Speed Boost).
As for one person who has played both:
Pre-Granite, I hate stone. Post Granite.. I still hate the -movement.
I love my invul. I can do anything I want with it. I think too many people lose the point of a tank. The idea isn't to sit there are 100% health as long as you can. The idea is to get as much of the agro as you can, and still survive. If that means I have to hit Dull Pain once in a blue moon.. that's fine. At least I don't have to rely on a tier 9 power like Stone does. Sure, I have Unstoppable at the ready, but I find myself not even using it most of the time.
Between the two, I enjoy playing my invul much more.
I'd have to give the first place nod to Invulnerability as well. Any time anyone mentions Stone as the top dog it comes with the Speed Boost caveat. Reliance on outside buffs is a weakness in my mind which puts stone behind Invulnerability and Willpower which are both "fire and forget" sets. Ultimately though Willpower winds up taking a back seat to Invulnerability due to the lack of a natural self heal.
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"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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I'd have to give the first place nod to Invulnerability as well. Any time anyone mentions Stone as the top dog it comes with the Speed Boost caveat. Reliance on outside buffs is a weakness in my mind which puts stone behind Invulnerability and Willpower which are both "fire and forget" sets. Ultimately though Willpower winds up taking a back seat to Invulnerability due to the lack of a natural self heal.
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True. In fact I agree with you. The thing is...it all depends on your basis of comparison. What you've said is very true, if we're talking about tankers using basic SO builds.
IOs do change things. Inv gets really good with IOs. WP doesn't benefit as much. But Stone...
Thing is... if you throw enough money into a Stone tank, you can get enough +runspeed and +recharge to mitigate the slow effects of Granite. You still can't jump and your damage will suck, but most stoners take teleport anyway. One of my SGmates runs a Stone tank that's been kitted out like this. As she likes to say, Speed Boost is greatly appreciated, but not required for her.
However, her build is hideously expensive. Most Stone builds designed to mitigate Granite's weaknesses are, really. That does put it a bit beyond the casual player. Moreover, if she exemps...it really isn't pretty. It isn't pretty at all. Those could be considered weaknesses.
Should we consider IOs or pool powers when judging how good a powerset is? I dunno. I think it at least bears mentioning.
@Acyl
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Rating tanks for survivability? Well, let's be honest, it is not a simple process. Ideally you should have a 3-dimensional chart noting primary, secondary and foes. Stone should be broken down to 2, with and without granite. Then you should go even farther and add in whether you are going for solo or team performance.
So a true comparison would be a breakdown of each primary (8 if you count Stone twice) and secondary (9) for a total of 72 possible combos. Then compare them against each foe both solo and teaming. And if you want to mudddle the waters even more, add in Epic power pools and other pool powers.
Given all that consideration, there is still the person's individual playstyle. One person can get their tank to do incredible things and still someone else will fail horribly given the same build.
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I'd have to give the first place nod to Invulnerability as well. Any time anyone mentions Stone as the top dog it comes with the Speed Boost caveat. Reliance on outside buffs is a weakness in my mind which puts stone behind Invulnerability and Willpower which are both "fire and forget" sets. Ultimately though Willpower winds up taking a back seat to Invulnerability due to the lack of a natural self heal.
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On the other hand, WP has massive +regeneration and a natural +HP boost, so it doesn't really need a self-heal. Even my WP Brute can meander through groups of enemies by herself. Invuln also has a weakness to fear, confuse, and psi damage, which WP does not.
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Rating tanks for survivability? Well, let's be honest, it is not a simple process. Ideally you should have a 3-dimensional chart noting primary, secondary and foes. Stone should be broken down to 2, with and without granite. Then you should go even farther and add in whether you are going for solo or team performance.
So a true comparison would be a breakdown of each primary (8 if you count Stone twice) and secondary (9) for a total of 72 possible combos. Then compare them against each foe both solo and teaming. And if you want to mudddle the waters even more, add in Epic power pools and other pool powers.
Given all that consideration, there is still the person's individual playstyle. One person can get their tank to do incredible things and still someone else will fail horribly given the same build.
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In addition to this, if you wanted to get really technical, you'd have to accommodate the fact that certain combinations could kill the enemies quicker, leading to greater survivability over time, since they would suffer less damage over the course of the fight. So, basically, short of someone spending a crap-ton of time working all of this out, it's all just guesswork and assumptions.
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O.k. I really didn't want the "Political" answers. Excuse me for being unclear. Let me put it this way, when you respond, what would you pick for your UBERMAN, comic book hero? So far, the 2 top dog answers I'm seeing for Survivabilty are WP and INV. These seem to be going back and forth. So, with out giving an answer predicated upon the fact that there are many variables to survivablity. Give your best educated assuption on what YOU think is the best, and what YOU would choose as an overall DEF set for your UBERMAN, for say, [insert brand] comics. Would you take INV, but be succeptible to weaknesses such as: fear, confuse, and psi damage? Or take WP and have those protections but not as much resistance and Def as INV? Choose your top 3 then give reasons for your pick. Please, no more politically correct answers. 
Honestly, I think that you will just receive the same answers over again. Jakke and Aett make good points about the subjective nature of your question. What you are basically asking for now is opinions and those have been given.
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"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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O.k. I really didn't want the "Political" answers. Excuse me for being unclear. Let me put it this way, when you respond, what would you pick for your UBERMAN, comic book hero? So far, the 2 top dog answers I'm seeing for Survivabilty are WP and INV. These seem to be going back and forth. So, with out giving an answer predicated upon the fact that there are many variables to survivablity. Give your best educated assuption on what YOU think is the best, and what YOU would choose as an overall DEF set for your UBERMAN, for say, [insert brand] comics. Would you take INV, but be succeptible to weaknesses such as: fear, confuse, and psi damage? Or take WP and have those protections but not as much resistance and Def as INV? Choose your top 3 then give reasons for your pick. Please, no more politically correct answers.
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Political? I don't think that word means what you think it does.
In order of raw survivability, which seems to be what you're insisting on, it would go something like:
Top two:
Granite Stone
Invuln soft capped
..................
The rest:
WP as long as we aren't including aggro control since your secondary is going to have to do nearly all the work.
Ice soft capped
Invuln with standard SO build
*Shield soft capped (extrapolated from my Shield scrapper, I haven't played or teamed with a Shield tank)
Stone without Granite
Dark - it's a bit squishy and highly reliant on it's heal hitting.
Fire - about a tie with Dark, equally squishy but doesn't have to hit enemies to heal.
Player skill makes an IMMENSE difference in this ranking... I'd take a great tanker playing a Fire over an idiot playing a Granite any day. This is also figured in isolation since the secondary pairing is another huge issue in the ranking.
Personally I've played Stone and Invuln to 50 and Fire to around 35, and have teamed with good tankers of every other primary but Shield... that's what I'm basing my opinions on. Ask 50 experienced tankers their opinion and you're likely to get roughly the same survivability rankings from most of them. Nobody's going to question the number one slot of Granite (assuming the player has a clue and is built halfway decently) and few will question Dark & Fire as the squishiest (but each has other advantages, notably in damage output).
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Just a note on Fire Armour
It might be way down the list in order of survivability but that doesn't make it a bad set. In smaller teams (say up to 5) I would take a fire tank over a stone tank any day.
A fire tank will probably be doing three times as much damage as a granite tank and therefore contributing more.
Its horse for courses. Running a super hard TF and need someone to tank multiple AV's? Take the granite. Running a speed team where the objective is to get through ASAP against regular spawns, take the fire tank.
My 2 cents.
Edit "Oh sorry, is this "political"?
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Just for the record, there are buffs other than Speed buffs. Defense and resistance shields can make non-Granite tanks every bit as tough, and they'll be naturally roughly as fast as a speed-boosted Granite.
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Just a note on Fire Armour
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Fire Armour is every bit as good as Fire Armor; it just herds on the left side of the hallway.
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Shields are very good... specially when you team with other melee. They play very well in numbers...
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Just a note on Fire Armour
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Fire Armour is every bit as good as Fire Armor; it just herds on the left side of the hallway.
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O.k. I really didn't want the "Political" answers. Excuse me for being unclear. Let me put it this way, when you respond, what would you pick for your UBERMAN, comic book hero? So far, the 2 top dog answers I'm seeing for Survivabilty are WP and INV. These seem to be going back and forth. So, with out giving an answer predicated upon the fact that there are many variables to survivablity. Give your best educated assuption on what YOU think is the best, and what YOU would choose as an overall DEF set for your UBERMAN, for say, [insert brand] comics. Would you take INV, but be succeptible to weaknesses such as: fear, confuse, and psi damage? Or take WP and have those protections but not as much resistance and Def as INV? Choose your top 3 then give reasons for your pick. Please, no more politically correct answers.
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Political? I don't think that word means what you think it does.
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Inconceivable!
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
Which Tank Power Set is the most powerful for suvivabilty? I think most would agree Stone, but what's 2nd, 3rd. . . and so on?
I rank them like this as far as I've been able to tell from the many battles I have seen. These are just my OPINION so no trash talk plz and be respectful of others picks.
1.Stone
2.WP
3.Inv. (although only edged out by WP barely)
4.Dark
4.Ice
(-Yes that's two '4's' I rate them so close, it's a tie for me)
6.Shields
7.Fire
Have fun debating your picks and please defend your top 3 picks with comments (If you pick Stone as #1-no comment needed.)
Also, put down your picks after IO/tricking out a Power set.
*This is without Tough/Weave added since adding Tough and weave improves all the same.