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Challenge Missions.
People who play them have a pretty clear idea of what they are, and how they differ from farms. And understand that some of them LOOK just like farms.
Some people are calling for removing ALL XP from the MArch, as a solution to the current "problems". I'm not trying to bring that debate here, I'm mentioning it because it prompted this question:
If you play Challenge Missions, would you still play them if they granted NO XP?
What if they granted no XP, Inf or Tickets? The only thing you could get would be the normal inspiration drops?
If you don't play Challenge Missions, would either of these cause you to start? Why?
My answer: "Hell, YES! To both! I ain't playin' 'em for the XP! I play 'em for the CHALLENGE!"
What's yours?
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Could not agree more.
If you could simply flag your mission as a "Challenge Mission" thus removing all rewards it would still appeal to those who are playing them for the challenge alone, while hopefully avoiding any chance that it might be construed as a farm.
Perhaps there is a down side but I don't know what it would be. I like it! 
I think people would play challenge missions without the current rewards. It would actually be neat if they could create some challenge-centric badges, but those would probably be hard to quantify.
I don't think they need to remove rewards from challenge missions, though. The difference between them and farms is obvious, because farms intentionally avoid a challenge.
[ QUOTE ]
Challenge Missions.
People who play them have a pretty clear idea of what they are, and how they differ from farms. And understand that some of them LOOK just like farms.
Some people are calling for removing ALL XP from the MArch, as a solution to the current "problems".
[/ QUOTE ]
There's all kinds of silly, unworkable ideas being posted as "solutions". I wouldn't fear this one even coming close to happening.
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I'm not trying to bring that debate here,
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, lacking self-control I couldn't help but comment. Sorry. 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm mentioning it because it prompted this question:
If you play Challenge Missions, would you still play them if they granted NO XP?
What if they granted no XP, Inf or Tickets? The only thing you could get would be the normal inspiration drops?
[/ QUOTE ]
It's not that I don't play Challenge Missions, just that I haven't gotten around to it, yet. My answer, though, is YES. But then I'm weird. I made a project out of fighting the Paladin and dragging him down to where people were (not ON them, griefing style....people will just join in faster if they can see it right there) and whupping his butt just for the fun of it (pre-merits, of course, and no badge and the XP was bupkis). So you might not want to go by me. 
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't play Challenge Missions, would either of these cause you to start? Why?
[/ QUOTE ]
The people who don't want to do something like that? There isn't anything to entice them to do so. More of a style of play temperament.
[ QUOTE ]
My answer: "Hell, YES! To both! I ain't playin' 'em for the XP! I play 'em for the CHALLENGE!"
[/ QUOTE ]
You're weird, too.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Dec out.
Would I start doing challenge missions again if there was no reward?
Yes.
Do I run them now? No, not worth the risk to publish one to have someone report it for a violation of their artistic standards.
I'd prefer that -some- xp/rewards remained in challenge missions so that people who aren't lvl 50 (I play lots of sub-50 chars, lvl 35+ is more than enough to start testing one's build) have something interesting to play and still progress through the game.
It doesn't have to go above and beyond what a "normal" mission arc awards, even if the risk faced is higher.
That said, if the only workable solution is to remove xp entirely from challenge missions or stuff that comes so close to the line that it would get banned as a farm or an exploit otherwise, then yeah, take the rewards away completely.
Less people would play it, less often. But it's still there for the novelty and challenge factor for those that want to.
I would play them, but probably not as often as having -some- rewards, with lvl 50 characters.
Invictus Est Level 50 Invul/Fire Tank
Malentis Level 50 Ice/Energy/Leviathan Dom (Freedom)
Black Jeremiah Level 50 Fire/Fire/Mu Dom
Sejanna Level 50 Dark/Dark/Elec Def (Virtue)
Arc #119664 - The MiniMech Cometh - Hess TF Mini-Sequel
Sorry to barge in like this, but what exactly are Challenge Missions? Are they like those Scrappers' Challenges with Lv54 Rikti Bosses?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I'm sorry if you don't want xp turn it off. Any suggestion of the player taking risks and getting no reward or even a reduced reward is a total non-starter.
Risk vs Reward.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Sorry to barge in like this, but what exactly are Challenge Missions? Are they like those Scrappers' Challenges with Lv54 Rikti Bosses?
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yes
specially constructed AV's, powerset mixes, that sort of thing
[ QUOTE ]
specially constructed AV's, powerset mixes, that sort of thing
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I assume we're also talking about soloing these missions?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
Would I start doing challenge missions again if there was no reward?
Yes.
Do I run them now? No, not worth the risk to publish one to have someone report it for a violation of their artistic standards.
[/ QUOTE ]
As long as there is risk to go with the reward, you're okay. As noted many times. Only exploits where there is very little risk with really large rewards are an issue.
But how do you make a mission that is a challenge to one and all AT's? It is already clear that Scrappers for example can go through NPC's like nobody's business while other AT's may struggle and face greater risks than a Scrapper would, and even within the Scrapper AT, the build probably influences a lot of the Risk/Reward factor.
Until the game can accurately determine the Risk/Reward based on real-time data-mining from the actual battles and adjust the rewards according to the risk, I doubt the Devs can do anything better than inflicting global arbitrary guidelines that either ignore AT/Build considerations or take them in as global factors only.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Again, considering that Positron said very strongly that they were only going after the worst-case exploiters, challenge missions should be okay. It's not difficult to tell the difference between exploits (fire imps with 5HP giving LT level XP) and challenging content (all boss missions, which will vary in difficulty based on AT).
[ QUOTE ]
Again, considering that Positron said very strongly that they were only going after the worst-case exploiters, challenge missions should be okay. It's not difficult to tell the difference between exploits (fire imps with 5HP giving LT level XP) and challenging content (all boss missions, which will vary in difficulty based on AT).
[/ QUOTE ]
The fire imps giving Lieutenant-grade XP wasn't something decided by the Arcs' author. What the Arc authors did do to create an abusive Arc, was to provide missions filled with Fire Imp summoning NPC's that would be easily defeated and provide no risk to any AT.
An all Boss mission however, yet again, provides risk to some AT's and not so much to others, so again, we're talking about something that is going to be exploitable for some AT's and not so easily exploitable for others.
I'm not into Scrappers myself, so I'll give an example from my two Kheldians. I have ran an Arc (we'll leave its info unknown because I think it's been removed anyway) with a Lv50 Warshade and later with a Lv50 Peacebringer, both tri-forms.
The Warshade was usually at more risk if certain power missed or if I made errors in judgment with my form-shifting but generally swept through the mission much faster than my Peacebringer who faced a lot less risk but paid for it with a slower rate of progress.
I think however that were I playing on a Scrapper, both rate-of-progress and risk factors would make it appear as if I was actually engaged in farming because I'd gather the rewards with more efficiency than either Kheldian. (Perhaps that explains the arcs' removal?)
Essentially, my point is, if you want Challenge for the sake of Challenge, you shouldn't have a problem giving up on the rewards. If you want Challenge and rewards, then you have to commit yourself to the arbitration process conducted by the Devs in which they get to decide what's the proper RvR that suits them.
For myself, the Challenge I like to undertake at the moment is to actually craft an entertaining and interesting story-arc.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I'm all for a No Rewards mode... if it lets us do fun stuff we can't currently, like spawn placement, unlimited ambushes, and so on.
As it is, between doing the exact same thing with or without rewards... I'll pick with rewards, thanks.
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And understand that some of them LOOK just like farms.
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I do not believe this is true. Unless you want to define "look just like farms" as any outdoor map full of enemies. After jumping into a few spawns, you know if it is a farm or not.
All boss spawns where the bosses had no range attacks and were set to standard/standard with long animation sets (Spines Melee / Ice Melee for example) - obvious farm is obvious. I got invited to a team like this that did not advertise they were farming on my Kat/Regen scrapper. After two spawns I realized, and went and rounded up the aggro cap and stood inside them all attacking me with DA on auto and got a beverage. When I came back, the leader asked me if I would drag them over to the team. I did so, then I thanked the group for the team and said, "I got to go."
Farm missions are designed to be easy, the enemies die fast, do little damage, and lack control/debuff powers. Challenge missions have almost the exact opposite criteria. I am not sure how they could be confused.
I am not even sure why a challenge mission would even be on a big map. Many challenges would work fine on a medium map and most could probably be done on a small one. Challenges on typical farm maps (big outdoor, Atta, etc.) are probably very rare.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry if you don't want xp turn it off. Any suggestion of the player taking risks and getting no reward or even a reduced reward is a total non-starter.
Risk vs Reward.
[/ QUOTE ]Okay, I'll take that as a "no".
[ QUOTE ]
But how do you make a mission that is a challenge to one and all AT's? It is already clear that Scrappers for example can go through NPC's like nobody's business while other AT's may struggle and face greater risks than a Scrapper would, and even within the Scrapper AT, the build probably influences a lot of the Risk/Reward factor.
Until the game can accurately determine the Risk/Reward based on real-time data-mining from the actual battles and adjust the rewards according to the risk, I doubt the Devs can do anything better than inflicting global arbitrary guidelines that either ignore AT/Build considerations or take them in as global factors only.
[/ QUOTE ]You can't make a truly Global Challenge Mission, AFAIK. But a Challenge Mission aimed at one AT can still be fun and interesting to try with another.
You know the currently missing Freakshow Tank one? I went in there with a blaster. I survived until I ran out of purples. It was hella fun.
The "Take out the feral scrappers one"? Did that one on a blaster too. Had to "cheat" like crazy with inspirations, but I just wanted to see all the scrapper characters. It was also hella fun.
Do I think I actually "beat" either one? Heck no. But I sure had fun.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And understand that some of them LOOK just like farms.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not believe this is true. Unless you want to define "look just like farms" as any outdoor map full of enemies. After jumping into a few spawns, you know if it is a farm or not.
All boss spawns where the bosses had no range attacks and were set to standard/standard with long animation sets (Spines Melee / Ice Melee for example) - obvious farm is obvious. I got invited to a team like this that did not advertise they were farming on my Kat/Regen scrapper. After two spawns I realized, and went and rounded up the aggro cap and stood inside them all attacking me with DA on auto and got a beverage. When I came back, the leader asked me if I would drag them over to the team. I did so, then I thanked the group for the team and said, "I got to go."
Farm missions are designed to be easy, the enemies die fast, do little damage, and lack control/debuff powers. Challenge missions have almost the exact opposite criteria. I am not sure how they could be confused.
I am not even sure why a challenge mission would even be on a big map. Many challenges would work fine on a medium map and most could probably be done on a small one. Challenges on typical farm maps (big outdoor, Atta, etc.) are probably very rare.
[/ QUOTE ]I probably should have said "LOOK like farms to some people.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, considering that Positron said very strongly that they were only going after the worst-case exploiters, challenge missions should be okay. It's not difficult to tell the difference between exploits (fire imps with 5HP giving LT level XP) and challenging content (all boss missions, which will vary in difficulty based on AT).
[/ QUOTE ]
The fire imps giving Lieutenant-grade XP wasn't something decided by the Arcs' author. What the Arc authors did do to create an abusive Arc, was to provide missions filled with Fire Imp summoning NPC's that would be easily defeated and provide no risk to any AT.
[/ QUOTE ]Fire Imps were an exploit. I am in no way trying to suggest some way that we could build exploitative missions.
Although, without XP or tickets, I guess technically it wouldn't be an exploit any more, since it wouldn't be giving "unnatural or unintended benefits". There certainly wouldn't be any point to it for powerlevelers.
[ QUOTE ]
Farm missions are designed to be easy, the enemies die fast, do little damage, and lack control/debuff powers. Challenge missions have almost the exact opposite criteria. I am not sure how they could be confused.
[/ QUOTE ]
They can be confused because they use some of the same tricks. The things that make hard critters harder, also make ridiculously easy critters give more rewards.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
[ QUOTE ]
Although, without XP or tickets, I guess technically it wouldn't be an exploit any more, since it wouldn't be giving "unnatural or unintended benefits". There certainly wouldn't be any point to it for powerlevelers.
[/ QUOTE ]
This would mean Challenge for the sake of Challenge. 
To be honest, at first, I figured the whole MA system would be completely rewardless! As in we write story-arcs for the sake of putting a story out there that people enjoy playing for the sake of a good story. I've long since realized that if you don't sprinkle the candy on top, the kids won't come to your party because without the promise of cake, no one's even interested to see if you're lying about it (the cake) or not 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
They can be confused because they use some of the same tricks. The things that make hard critters harder, also make ridiculously easy critters give more rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should think the absence of "ridiculously easy critters" would make it obvious.
Dec out.
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[ QUOTE ]
They can be confused because they use some of the same tricks. The things that make hard critters harder, also make ridiculously easy critters give more rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should think the absence of "ridiculously easy critters" would make it obvious.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, so would I, but the current storm clearly demonstrates that obvious to some is "OMGBBQ, THERE[sic] GOING TO . . . ." to others.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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They can be confused because they use some of the same tricks. The things that make hard critters harder, also make ridiculously easy critters give more rewards.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should think the absence of "ridiculously easy critters" would make it obvious.
[/ QUOTE ]Well, so would I, but the current storm clearly demonstrates that obvious to some is "OMGBBQ, THERE[sic] GOING TO . . . ." to others.
[/ QUOTE ]
True. Undeniably true. Reading IS fundamental.
Dec out.
Challenge Missions.
People who play them have a pretty clear idea of what they are, and how they differ from farms. And understand that some of them LOOK just like farms.
Some people are calling for removing ALL XP from the MArch, as a solution to the current "problems". I'm not trying to bring that debate here, I'm mentioning it because it prompted this question:
If you play Challenge Missions, would you still play them if they granted NO XP?
What if they granted no XP, Inf or Tickets? The only thing you could get would be the normal inspiration drops?
If you don't play Challenge Missions, would either of these cause you to start? Why?
My answer: "Hell, YES! To both! I ain't playin' 'em for the XP! I play 'em for the CHALLENGE!"
What's yours?