Do the Devs think that slower lvls = longer play?
By
Alex_Mars,
Posted on: 2009-05-06 01:51 in Mission Architect
Well I have to ask...why'd you play before MA?
Messed around in pvp zones from time to time, didnt play a whole lot. Unsub'd, went and played lolwow with my brother, it sucked, came back to coh for MA, its been a ton of fun, gonna suck again. And I even resub'd my bro's account so I could use 2 of them to increase my gaming pleasure.
The short answer: yes, they do.
Slightly longer answer: slowing down leveling will get enough people to play for a month or two longer than they would have with extremely quick leveling. Some people will quit immediately in disgust - but the monthly fees for those who play longer will cover those who quit immediately.
for example: let's say you've got 10 people: 1 person would have stayed for 3 months before getting bored and quitting,while the remaining 9 people would have stayed for 4 months before qitting. That's a total of 39 months of subscription time.
Now, with the change: that first person quits in disgust, but the other four stick it out for an extra month. The total is now 45 months of subscription. In terms of money, it is therefore in the game's best interest to find that sweet spoot that is JUST rewarding enough to maintain the interest of a majority of the playerbase, and keep them from quitting. But not TOO rewarding, because if you reward too much the playerbase will get all the rewards you have available, and leave.
Now, do I have hard numbers to back this up? No - I'm not the developers of this game. But I do know that people who get something for nothing rarely value it, and therefore rarely stick to whatever it is they're doing - and that's what fast PLing is.
To quote a business axiom: "Always leave them wanting more" - if you give someone what they actually want, they won't come back for more. Many folks who are PLing want the end result - once they get it, they won't come back. Maybe you're one of the folks who likes the process of PLing, rather than the end. In that case: the dev's aren't nerfing your fun, at least not intentionally - they're nerfing the fun of those other people, so that they'll play the game a month or two longer.
to throw it back to you with an extreme example: how long do you think the average user would play this game if there as an 'I WIN' button in it that would automatically level any character to fifty, grant all badges and accolades, and give them all the IO's they wanted? Because this is the extreme example of PL'ing. I'm thinking that the answer is "not very long". Therefore, we can conclude that it is not in the developer's best interest to allow people to level too fast. How fast is "not too fast"?
Well, that's a question for folks with their MBA's and lots of experience in the gaming industry to figure out with statistical analysis and the like.
Of course the Devs haven't reduced debt (several times), and implemented XP smoothing
Oh wait they did.
Faster levelling through 'normal means' is encouraged.
Using exploits to get ridiculous speeds is bannable.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I didnt mean from the launch of the game. I mean from where we are right now. Removing all the boss/comm farms and what other types of farms were out there, to go back to regular leveling, do they think that makes us want to play longer? I guess its kind of like if you semi HAD an "I Win" button, and you enjoyed, but then it is removed and you go back same ole grind.
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Do they really think that slowing down our play by taking away farming makes us want to stay?
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I don't know.
I guess we should ask the devs after they:
Nerfed Wolves
Nerfed Ninjas
Nerfed Wolves again
Nerfed AEs by setting a smaller target limit
Nerfed Original Nemesis Map
Nerfed Snake Eggs
And probably nerfed a few more missions that had become popular farms which I cannot remember.
Even after these nerfs, people stayed. I think the answer is: yes.
Well, the pace of "normal" levellling in CoH is a very slow grind, that is why I quit years ago. I came back to check out the mission editor and found that if I wanted to I could level really fast, or I could play cool story missions. I had a choice.
If I have to go back to slow grinding as my only levelling pace I'll take my money elsewhere and Cryptic loses a bit of revenue.
The most common comment I have seen in various forums when people talk about CoH is that the game is fun but the level grind is too steep. It would appear that the pace of levelling is one thing that has driven off a lot of customers.
Yes, the lvling is steep. And with nerfs galore on pvp, it made AE the BIG thing for me, and it was fun. The fast leveling has always been the funnest part of AE, but I did infact make actual Farm missions with stories behind it. "Steal Castle's Nerfbat" was the latest. Are they high xp/low risk, possibly.. Are they still actual missions with storylines, Yupp. But I guess the devs control the speed of the game to their liking, not ours.. and someone said it before, we DONT have to stick around. Especially with the competition coming out.
CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
I hope that this whole farming situation has made it apparent to the devs that a lot of people perceive the game's slow leveling speed to be an issue. I don't like farming, and I'm glad they're taking a hard line on it, but just dismissing the whole thing out of hand without examining why it became so prevalent would be a mistake
CoH and CoV are the most altitis-inducing games I've ever played. I've been playing for almost five years and there are still dozens of powersets I've never tried. And I probably never will, because every time I think about creating a new character, I look at all the ones I already have that have been mired in the 20s and 30s and 40s for years. I love playing every one of them, but it's hard to keep at it when you feel like you're not making progress.
Maybe it wouldn't have been such a good idea a few years ago, but I think the game is at a point now where a faster path to 50 wouldn't such a big deal. You don't have to worry about missing content anymore, thanks to flashback and TF exemplaring. And, if you want to be cynical about it, now that we can buy character slots, altitis is good for NCsoft's bottom line.
Farming is bad, and it needs to be curbed, but people do it for a reason, and ignoring that reason in the rush to condemn would be a missed opportunity.
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CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
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Sorry, you lost all credability when you effectively stated in your post Everquest leveling is LESS of a grind than CoH. The term 'jevel grind' was COINED by the player of EQ. (EQ was my second MMO after Meridian 59) and if there was RVER an MMO that is a shining example of purposely DEV created player timesinks to slow leveling in an MMO, EQ was it. Played it for 5 years before finally coming to my senses.
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I hope that this whole farming situation has made it apparent to the devs that a lot of people perceive the game's slow leveling speed to be an issue. I don't like farming, and I'm glad they're taking a hard line on it, but just dismissing the whole thing out of hand without examining why it became so prevalent would be a mistake
CoH and CoV are the most altitis-inducing games I've ever played. I've been playing for almost five years and there are still dozens of powersets I've never tried. And I probably never will, because every time I think about creating a new character, I look at all the ones I already have that have been mired in the 20s and 30s and 40s for years. I love playing every one of them, but it's hard to keep at it when you feel like you're not making progress.
Maybe it wouldn't have been such a good idea a few years ago, but I think the game is at a point now where a faster path to 50 wouldn't such a big deal. You don't have to worry about missing content anymore, thanks to flashback and TF exemplaring. And, if you want to be cynical about it, now that we can buy character slots, altitis is good for NCsoft's bottom line.
Farming is bad, and it needs to be curbed, but people do it for a reason, and ignoring that reason in the rush to condemn would be a missed opportunity.
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I've had a lot more fun recently than I've had in a very long time with CoH. I got to try a lot of new powersets and get them leveled into the 20s where I actually get some powers that improve the gameplay experience (stamina being a huge one). And let's face it, we really don't get to "feel" heroic until we really start filling out our attack chains and defense/resist in the 30s.
I think that's where we get a lot of frustration. It seems that many people on these boards hate the PL'ers and farmers, but what does it say that as soon as you create a feature that allows people to level much quicker than normal, server populations explode. There were plenty of times that I logged to see Freedom was full.
I'll admit, I took full advantage. The AE powerleveling allowed me to experience the only new content I have left, new powers and characters. And although I'm sure there are people out there making extreme missions meant only for the most IO'd out lvl 50, just how exactly am I supposed to experience these? I've played for 3 years and have 2 lvl 50s, and neither has that many IO sets. And let's say I want to play that mission with a 50 spines/fire, that's great. All I have to do is spend the next few months to a year grinding it out. It's just not worth it.
I think this powerleveling should be left as is (or was, before the nerf). People say that players will get bored. In case you haven't noticed, players already are bored. At least now they get to play with new alts. People also claim that players are missing the content. What content? I've played against every mob type available with my different characters. Maybe once, I actually read the storyline. The rest was just grinding through dev missions to achieve a new power, enhancement, or accolade. This game just isn't varied enough to make it about the journey from 1-50 for many players. For me, it's always been about my character and developing their powers. The AE powerleveling farms were awesome for me, and now my experience just got nerfed.
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CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
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oddly CoH is the only game I've reached the level cap on - or even come close.
AC, AO, WoW, LotRO - never came close
Personal thought on question.
Slower levels = Greater Value of the Goal
Faster Levels = Firecracker goal. Ooo, ahh at first then nothing.
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Personal thought on question.
Slower levels = Greater Value of the Goal
Faster Levels = Firecracker goal. Ooo, ahh at first then nothing.
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I don't believe that's true. I slaved out to make the first 50, but I didn't feel any particular sense of accomplishment when it was done. It also didn't unlock some huge chest of new content.
Like I said, the only new content for me in this game are basically the characters I create. If you don't want me going 1-50 quickly, ok, but at least give me an opportunity to quickly go to a point where I really start feeling powerful. This is a subjective request, but for me it would be late 20s to the early 30s. Definitely something past stamina.
It also helps me pick out duds. The game changes quite a bit when you get into the 30s and 40s. I discovered this with my second alt ever, a fire/nrg blaster. I was extremely powerful when I got into the late 20s, but as I hit the late 30s I realized I strongly disliked this alt. I spent much of my late 30s mezzed. He's still sitting in his late 30s. It's not really time wasted, as I enjoyed him up to that point, but it was certainly disappointing to realize that he wasn't going to get into the content in the 40s. It wasn't until I stuck with my scrapper that I hit 50, years after I started.
I've already unsubscribed once due to boredom. You might say longer leveling provides more value, but I say the longer leveling isn't worth the prize at the end. I'd rather play around with many different powersets than spending time getting one to 50.
Meh that's actualy a mixed problem I have with the game...
I only have 2 level 50... I like creating and the level 50 content honestly means Jack to me.
I like creating characters and growing. Hitting the high levels in a few hours would honestly give me zero entertainment value.
The personal thought in itself however is more a general thing I would think. how it applies to this game applies in a mannor of 'why would anyone want to make level 50...
Meh.... on a side thought... The core of this game in my opinion is what creates Altitus which makes me think that the shiny level 50 also means Jack by unconcious design.
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CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
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Sorry, you lost all credability when you effectively stated in your post Everquest leveling is LESS of a grind than CoH. The term 'jevel grind' was COINED by the player of EQ. (EQ was my second MMO after Meridian 59) and if there was RVER an MMO that is a shining example of purposely DEV created player timesinks to slow leveling in an MMO, EQ was it. Played it for 5 years before finally coming to my senses.
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You beat me to it. Any EQ player would find that statment laughable.
That statement didn't say Everquest was less of a grind, though. If you want to intentionally misrepresent the post go ahead I guess.
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CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
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Sorry, you lost all credability when you effectively stated in your post Everquest leveling is LESS of a grind than CoH. The term 'jevel grind' was COINED by the player of EQ. (EQ was my second MMO after Meridian 59) and if there was RVER an MMO that is a shining example of purposely DEV created player timesinks to slow leveling in an MMO, EQ was it. Played it for 5 years before finally coming to my senses.
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You beat me to it. Any EQ player would find that statment laughable.
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If we are talking about EQ orignally then yes this is a laughable statement. After plane of powers were released Guilds were PLing members to max level in a few hours. Besides that the new content in general allowed people to level allot faster than at release.
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CoX is the only MMO I couldn't ever stick it out to reach 50. Everquest, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW all capped out toons.
CoH I peeter out at about 43. Thats pretty wierd.
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It's not weird (other than the EQ part) CoX is the same at lvl 2 as it is at 50. You go in the same warehouse and you fight the same group of 3 bad guys who's leader spawns at the exact same spot on the map every time.
Unless you really like your concept, or have some late powers that are "must haves" there is very little incentive to push through in this game.
They have pushed hard to add "end game" content through various means such as co-op TF's, Loot, markets, MA, however; the main focus has always been on "re-roll and do it all again" and they are having trouble shifting away from that paradigm imo.
IIRC some time ago it was said that the avg lvl reached was ~30. I'd like to think that they have tried (or will try) to get that number up around ~40, or else the extended effort in end-game content might not have been prudent.
*I didn't include pvp on the end content list because it is probably the worst pvp system I've seen, which interestingly enough, was one of the best systems in i12.
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Personal thought on question.
Slower levels = Greater Value of the Goal
Faster Levels = Firecracker goal. Ooo, ahh at first then nothing.
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The solution? Double or Triple the number of levels and speed up the pace between levels.
Someone above hit the point, which one would hope NCsoft will see as well:
Rapid advancement (be it Farming, or Double XP or whatever) increases subscriptions, which increases revenue. ED and other experience-decreasing measures shrink subscriptions, and therefor revenues.
Not so much that slower leveling = longer play more that slower leveling = some level of accomplishment when you level.
Getting a level for 10 minutes play is no accomplishment at all and while some will enjoy it for a while shortly they will become bored either because they would have anyway or because the game seems pointless.
I have known people who left CoH before the great Power Diversification controversy BECAUSE the game was too easy to fight and level and they found it boring.
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
<QR> To all:
What would be the perfect levelling speed in gameplay hours to the cap, in your opinion?
Slow enough that you feel accomplishment, fast enough that it doesn't feel like forever?
I am a 60 month vet with one level 50 (and over 100 alts), so the speed doesn't matter to me, but I'm curious.
For bonus points, how many purple IOs should you acquire in that same amount of time from drops?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Do they really think that slowing down our play by taking away farming makes us want to stay? I really doubt people farming is gonna make the farm haterz /unsub, but do the devs think.. hmm, If they level slower, they will have to play longer? Boss farming was actually really fun for me. Extremly nerfed pvp, boring/slow leveling, and literally no end game content doesnt make me want to play.