I dare you.... to tell us what it is.

OK, sick of the tease: someone do tell us exactly what IO set negates the need for Fitness. Much talk do I hear, but when it comes down to an exact set name, people just suddenly develop memory loss.

And since this is so, I am calling shenanigans on the whole idea until I hear something logical. I think its an urban legend, myself.

Seen this evening in the middle of a mission, levels high teens for everyone - and might I add, the person making the claim was doing a whole lot of not much fighting.... must've had END issues, you think?:

Tank: "No Fitness pool yet."

some PvP guy: "A couple of IOs will fix that."

Bad: "I have unfortunately never seen the IOs or IO sets that replace Stamina. What is the name of the IO or set?"

some PvP guy: "Lool, IOs fixes everything."

Someone else: "All toons need Stamina."

Some PvP guy: "no."

Bad: "What set fixes not having Stamina? I am all ears."

some PvP guy: "If you have a lot of money you can fix it."

Bad: "Yes, but what exact sets?"

some PvP guy: "Let me see....."

Bad: "I hear all this talk, but no one ever names the sets."

Some PvP guy: "I have one on my Brute [one what? One IO? One set? -editor] I forget what it was, they cost like 50 mill each."

Bad: "Yeah I can do that at level 16, no problem!!"

[Then he talks abut how afraid he is to do an Influence transfer.... snip]

Bad: "Think I'll just pick up Fitness and save the billion bucks. I'm cheap like that."

some PvP guy: "LOL! Fitness does no good without IOs!!"

Bad: "ROTFL!! WHAT?!"

some PvP guy: "It depends on your build. But you have to have IOs or Fitness does you no good at all."

At this point I nearly fell out laughing, and I think that ticked him off and he shut up. He claimed to be seriously into PvP and I'm skeptical as to why one would need a billion-dollar +END set in PvP, since those matches tend to last less than three minutes.... in fact often less than 30 seconds. BOOM, you're dead. But this whole thing is ridiculous. What is this infamous Purple set that costs 50 million per enhancement and negates the need for Stamina? You can tell me, because when it comes to a choice between spending a billion bucks and picking up one power pool, you know what I am gonna do. I will not be purchasing them.

But I AM curious. Especially since every last person who has made this claim has been gasping for END the whole time. Shenaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanigaaaannnnnnnss...

---

Well, the obvious answer would be the Numina and Miracle Unique IOs, though you could also stack up +Recovery bonuses from any of a large number of IO Sets. If you did all of the above, that would more than equal the recovery gained from Stamina.

Of course it's a tradeoff. If you have the power choices to spare in your build and you'd rather not spend the influence, then naturally Stamina is the way to go. But you don't have to go that route. If you'd prefer to take other powers, you can save the power selections by going the IO route and not having to work in three Fitness powers.

Also, characters who are extremely endurance-hungry can always do all this AND take Stamina.

Plus, there's always slotting for EndRedux, the old-fashioned and still very much effective way of getting by without Fitness and doing just fine. I won't speak to PvP, since I don't do that, but there's no reason any PvE character can't go the EndRedux route or the IO Set route or the (granted, expensive) IO Unique route rather than the Fitness route. It's a case by case basis which avenue or combination of avenues is the best route. Sometimes it might be Stamina. Sometimes it might not.

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With great power comes great RTFM -- Lady Sadako
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server

I have got someone with the Miracle set on one power and most of the Numina on another, including both procs and I sure wouldn't strip Fitness off of him because of it.... because he's an END-hog for sure.

It helps, but negate the need for Fitness..? Not seeing it. But that's just me.

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Getting the usual acc and dam, with 60% or so end reduction in your attacks, pretty much mitigates the need.

Its not individual IOs, its putting the sets in (or frankenslotting) the heavy end users.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

My Earth/Storm has 41% end recovery from set bonuses. Slotted Stamina provides just a hair over 45%. With ~40% EndRedux in each power most builds will have no need for Stamina.

Of course, I do have it but only because Earth/Storm is an Endurance freak.

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Honestly? Just slot your active powers down as close as you can get to either 6end per use or the ED 'Cap'.

My fire blaster's got 2 end SOs in almost every power. My shield tanker has more in some attacks. My Dominator doesn't bother, but doesn't have stamina either.

-Rachel-

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As for the sets I've slotted:

2x Thunderstrike 2.5%
2x Positron 2.5%
Steadfast Protection 1.5%
2x Gift of the Ancients 2.0%
Gift of the Ancients +1.8 Max End
2x Stupefy 2.5%
Razzle Dazzle 2.0%
Dark Watcher's Despair 2.5%
Blood Mandate 1.5%
Miracle 15.0%
Performance Shifter 20% chance for 10% End Refill

---

[ QUOTE ]
I have got someone with the Miracle set on one power and most of the Numina on another, including both procs and I sure wouldn't strip Fitness off of him because of it.... because he's an END-hog for sure.

It helps, but negate the need for Fitness..? Not seeing it. But that's just me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say the Miracle and Numina Sets, I said the Uniques. The Numina Set doesn't even offer a +recovery bonus outside of the Unique and the one from the Miracle isn't enough on its own to stand in for Stamina. I was talking about the Unique IOs in those Sets, not the Set Bonuses. You'd need a lot more Set Bonuses than just those and/or the Uniques coming into play.

As for having both procs, where do you have them? They're 120 second procs, so they need to be in a power you're using regularly (or one that's always on) or they aren't doing you any good.

---

With great power comes great RTFM -- Lady Sadako
Iscariot's Guide to the Tri-Form Warshade, version 2.1
I'm sorry that math > your paranoid delusions, but them's the breaks -- Nethergoat
P.E.R.C. Rep for Liberty server

A single IO set isn't going to negate slotted Stamina (.83 end/sec), but a combination thereof is more than capable of it. The Miracle +recovery (.25 end/sec) and Numina +regen/+recov (.17 end/sec) IOs go a decent way towards overcoming it. Depending on your AT and power set selection, it gets a bit more complicated, but it isn't too hard to pull together the remaining .41 end/sec. Pretty much anyone can slot at least 3 of the 2.5% +end powers (Miracle, Impervium Armor, Positron's Blast, Stupefy, Malaise's Illusions all 2 piece set bonus). 2 slots in 3 powers generates an additional 7.5% +recov (.12 end/sec). Additional functional +recovery can be gained reasonably easily by getting the +endurance set bonuses. Eradication, GotA, Undermined, Mocking Berate, Damp Spirits, Theft of Essence all grant an additional 1.8 endurance reasonably low in their set bonuses, which multiplies your recovery by an additional 1.8% for each you gain.

The big affect of set IOs that is going to make getting rid of Stamina is the amount of end redux that the sets give to attacks and other powers that players normally eschew end redux for damage or recharge. In general, most attack sets have at least 30% end redux in them, which, when you consider that, in general, most uninterrupted attack strings cost in the region of 3-4 end/sec to maintain, the end redux is providing more end/sec than Stamina does.

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Aye, ways to get rid of stamina if desired:

Heavy end reduction slotted into powers
Slot for as much Recovery and Max Endurance as possible.
Recovery will increase the percentage of end you get back per sec.
Max End will give you a larger base number for the percentage from recovery to multiply against.

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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Endura...and_Management
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Catego...prove_Recovery
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Catego...rove_Endurance
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Miracle:_Recovery
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Numina...ation/Recovery

Stamina is a base recovery bonus of +25%. Three-slotted, that's approximately +48% or +49%.

Miracle: Recovery is +15%. Numina's: Regen/Recov is +10%. That leaves merely 23% left to get from set bonuses if your character has access to one or two heal-slottable powers. If not, +48% isn't that hard. If you boost your maximum endurance, you get more end/sec out of each percentage point of recovery.

It's more effective to slot endurance reduction in your powers, though. Try frankenslotting multiple sets instead of trying to stick with one full set.

---

Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com

Not to mention Performance Shifter: Chance for +Endurance; not quite recovery, and is frequently slotted in Stamina anyways, but it does help with endurance management, and can be slotted in any power that accepts endurance modification.

Also, Panacea has a +End proc in the set, though you can only obtain it through PvP or the market, and I imagine it's pretty rare. (Healing set)

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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt

[ QUOTE ]
Aye, ways to get rid of stamina if desired:

Heavy end reduction slotted into powers
Slot for as much Recovery and Max Endurance as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it depends what you're doing. I have a character that I primarily use to for solo-zone pvp, and I get by pretty well with no stamina by slotting a number of IO's to help with my end usage and recovery. It works fine for me, BUT if the zone was more heavily populated and the fighting was non-stop I'd want stamina.

---

Taking an example very close to my heart that of a Claws/regen scrapper with leadership pool

Single target attack chain: Follow-up Focus Strike Slash
Base cost 24.27 end in 4.5 seconds

3 toggles Integration, Assault, Tactics
Base cost 0.52 end/tick or 4.68 end in that same 4.5 seconds

So you can easily see how the attacks are the big drain, a drain incidentally made much worse if you take hasten and use the bigger hitters more often. Per a purged BABs post attack powers basically use a 1 end point per 10 base damage scale. (exceptions do apply)

Now for my slotting:
Follow-up has 1 part of endrec slotted (via HO) 33.33%
Strike has Gladiator’s Strike (5 parts) giving and endrec of 60.8%
Slash has Hecatomb (5 parts) giving an endrec of 33.33%
Focus has Apocalypse (5 parts) giving an endrec of 33.33%

(prior to getting purples, I was running crushing impart and thunderstrike, which give an even better end reduction ~69% in each attack)

Integration has 3 Golgi’s (95% endrec)
Assault has 1 endrec IO (42.4%)
Tactics has 3 Cytos (95% endrec)

Adjusted costs:
Attack chain now costs 17.69 end in the same 4.5 seconds
Toggles now cost 0.313 end/tick or 1.41 end in 4.5 seconds

A net change of (28.95 – 19.10) = 9.85 end in 4.5 seconds, or 2.19 end/second, the majority coming from the reduction in the click powers/attacks

Stamina 3 slotted is a boost of about 0.83 end/sec (SO number and no accolades)

The ‘free’ endrec components from the IO sets is more than the increased recovery from taking and slotting stamina.

Now, I do have stamina on Cat, but he certainly doesn’t need it in normal play. Pushing the envelope the way I do requires a much more balanced end use than normal play. His AOE chain is also more end intensive than the ST chain, but that means he gets proportionally even more from the endrecs slotted there.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

QR:

This is all well and good, but its not really answering my original query about what this infamous 50-million-each set of IOs, or original single IO is, that allows people to completely disregard Fitness. This is the foundation for my growing suspicion that no such set or single IO actually exists which acts as a Fitness "magic bullet."

My closest guess is that he [and others] are talking about 6-slotting Apocalypse and Hecatomb. But even with those, I'd still want Fitness. I tend to run END-heavy characters.

[ QUOTE ]
someone else: Aye, ways to get rid of stamina if desired:

Heavy end reduction slotted into powers
Slot for as much Recovery and Max Endurance as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sighs] If we were allowed to six-slot everything, i'd be happy to slam three END-reducers into every last power I have. I do not have this luxury, however, because many things need to be three-slotted for ACC. And, slots are scarce commodities. The only sets I've played where I almost actually had spare slots for this type of luxury were Archery and /regen.

But that is just me.

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Them: IOs will fix your endurance problems

You: Tell me, what IO causes you to not need Stamina?

Forums: It's not one IO, but IOs in general, that allow you to get better recovery/less endurance usage.

You: Okay, but what one IO is it?




It's NOT just one IO, but IOs in general, more specifically, the fact that sets allow you to slot for more endurance reduction than you might otherwise, and set bonuses over several sets can increase your endurance recovery. Combine this with the two uniques that raise recovery, and you can get better totals than with just Stamina.

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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

I forgot. It's bad_influence. Give her reasonable, complete answers and she just continues rubbing her bloody face into the brick wall.

(by the way, many 'purple' enhancements (very rare enemy drops) are 20-50 million apiece, and both of the Miracle and Numina's pieces tend to run pretty high as well)

---

Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com

Give it up Aett. She's not looking for an answer, she just wants justification that her narrow point of view is right. Nothing anyone says will change her mind. She's just going to insist that any answer she gets won't resolve her endurance problem.

On the other hand, if you enjoy this kind of debate, please continue.

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... Why do things need to be 3 slotted for accuracy? I find 2 to be overkill, most times...

-Rachel-

---

Quick Reply:

I really like that wild Single-Origin Endurance Reduction for Stamina-ignoring. One in every click power, two in the higher-cost ones. Maybe one in a toggle if it eats a lot of Endurance, I have lots of toggles, or I just have slots to assign and nothing in paticular to do with them. It's not an IO or IO set, but it's how I get by without Stamina. Inexpensive, too.

I used to three-slot for Accuracy, until the Real Numbers came out and I discovered that two Accuracy SOs cap my ToHit chance against anything I'd care to attack, so now I just add an EndRedux instead of that third Accuracy.

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BackAlleyBrawler: I can't facepalm this post hard enough.
ShoNuff: If sophisticated = bro-mantically emo-tastic, then I'm going to keep to my Shonen loving simplicity dammit.

<QR>

Everyone seems to be concentrating on the recovery percentage, and IMO that is looking at it the wrong way. Concentrate on the net end/sec you gain so you can also take into account max end set bonuses.

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[ QUOTE ]
QR:

This is all well and good, but its not really answering my original query about what this infamous 50-million-each set of IOs, or original single IO is, that allows people to completely disregard Fitness.


[/ QUOTE ]

50 million each set ?
Not even close try 2-4 million/piece crafted and available now
(numbers for a level 50)
*Numbers are pre-ED adjustement to illustrate how youc an even pull an enhancment(s) from these sets and still be ahead of the 3 SO levels.

Crushing Impact
68.9% Acc Endrec and recharge
143.1% Damage*

Thunderstrike
68.9% Acc Endrec and recharge
143.1% Damage

Doctored Wounds
116% to heal and recharge
74.2% Endrec

Multistrike (PBAOE)
74.2% accuracy
121.9% damage
95.4% endrec
47.7% recharge

Detonation (TAOE)
47.7% Accuracy
148.4% Damage
68.9% Endrec
26.5% recharge
47.7% Range

Titanium Coating
70% Damage resist
116.6% Endrec

Red Fortune
70% defence buff
116.6% Endrec

Note, ALL of the above are UNCOMMON pool-A, I have not even dipped into the rare sets

Any post 30 mez set has 47.7% endrec



Stamina provides about a 48.7% recovery increase compared to the basic recovery.

It is absolutely Trivial to to reduce your endurance expenditure to be ahead of the stamina position through slotting a combination of the above sets.

Thats not factoring in a single point from the +recovery, or+end which some of the above sets give.

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@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

<QR> I too would love to know what are these powers that need three accuracy in them?

Three training enhancements? Three level 50 IO's?

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Cloak of Fear.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Cloak of Fear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm horrible wrong since I'm not sure I'm calculating any of this right but wouldn't the difference between 2 and 3 IO's be 1.33 accuracy for three and 1.22 accuracy for two.

Assuming a base accuracy of .67 for CoF and level 50 IO's.

Edit: If so wouldn't a better slotting involve only 2 accuracies and maybe something like a fear, and endurance reduction, and a couple of tohit debuffs?

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