Nevermind. I was mistaken. It wasn't coming in i14, dur.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....ue#Post12909527
Petless masterminds are more useless than "healorz" defenders without attacks. And that's already about as useless as a third nipple on a dude.
There were some posts on this subject a year or two ago. It was an "Iron Man" competition to see who could make it to 50 without pets. That means that you never take a pet. Just rely on your weak attack powers, secondary power and pool power for more damage etc. It was more of a challenge for those that needed something tougher to try.
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There were some posts on this subject a year or two ago. It was an "Iron Man" competition to see who could make it to 50 without pets. That means that you never take a pet. Just rely on your weak attack powers, secondary power and pool power for more damage etc. It was more of a challenge for those that needed something tougher to try.
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Ugh, I remember that. I still think that's not tough, it's asinine. I could take a Brute to 50 without ever leveling, but that doesn't make it a challenge.
Being a petless mastermind is numerically absolutely worst-in-class at whatever you can do. Your buff-scale is significantly reduced from a Defender or Corruptor, and your damage-scale is pitifully low. All this is mitigated by having a gaggle of powerful, expendable, buffable, upgradable pets.
So just keep that in mind. Regardless of your primary/secondary picks, you're strictly worse at doing whatever it is you intend to do than any other character that team could have picked.
I'll typically excuse a lot of things, like new to an AT, new to the game, terrible builds, awful slotting, poor enhancing choices, basically any level of ignorance in groups. These are education issues, and once you steer someone properly, they'll fix it and the problem is solved. But, when someone knowingly terminally gimps their build for concept reasons, they're just not pulling their weight. It's your $15/month, and you can play however you want, just please don't subject other people to your build unless they're friends who don't mind pl'ing you.
Also keep in mind that petless masterminds have far less health than a Defender or Corruptor.
I'd tolerate a petless MM on my team though, if it was /pain and hugged brutes - because suppress pain is such a good power that it completely eclipses soothing aura.
You could get by using Necro as a primary; it's three attacks have debuff components that can add to your defense; one of which is a self-heal.
This can work with /Dark, which also has two major ToHit debuff powers; Fearsome Stare, which will allow you to pick apart many (immobilized and not attacking) minion mobs one at a time (or focus on a boss while the rest of the mob does nothing) and Darkest Night; adding to your Fear's ToHit Debuff (around -32% moderately slotted). It also has a nice group heal with additional tohit debuff and -regen. Howling Twilight is a good rounder to your petless arsenal.
[Some will pick hairs on whether the use of your secondary's pet invalidates your build from being petless.]
If it does not, then Dark Servant provides a fair complement your your healing and debuffs.
If so, then /Traps is voided as a secondary choice; even though it does have great tools: Acid Mortar for Def and Res debuff of close-knit mobs; Seeker Drones and FFG for a defensive bump.
/Storms is another great secondary with powers like Snow Storm, Steamy Mist and Hurricane for mitigation and Freezing Rain for Damage buffing.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I have a very pet-lite MM at the moment: he's a ninjas/dark MM that has only the second level of pets, the Jounin. The genin look stupid and the Oni looks HELLA stupid.
He does okay. Nothin like my Bots/Traps or my Thugs/Poison of course
You could make a blastermind and get to 50 solo (obviously you could do it teamed too). But whats the point? To prove how simple it is to level in CoH?
Why not go whole hog and just take your mandatory attack and 3 secondary powers and just take pool powers?
You would be able to do it, but I don't know what you have proven.
You have chosen to gimp yourself beyond any reasonable standard, so if you group, you have a responsibility to inform the group before you join. Chances are they will take you anyway, I likely would as the support pools are so powerful in big groups that you would be useful even in this state.
Really, it COULD work, but only if you were damn good at what you do. Though, to be honest, I would prefer a pet MM to a petless MM any day.
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Really, it COULD work, but only if you were damn good at what you do. Though, to be honest, I would prefer a pet MM to a petless MM any day.
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You can't be good at playing a petless MM. Pathetic damage, the weakest support numbers in the game, and nerfed powers. Take /Dark. Twilight Grasp has its area reduced and the heal is less effective due to your pathetic hitpoints. Dark Servant is on an 8-minute timer, not 4, meaning you'll have to slot it out the wazoo to get it perma'd.
Can you do it? Sure. We've had MAN builds since launch, nothing but brawl and maybe pool powers.
Is it a useful asset to a team? No. No matter how you cut it, a petless MM cannot be as useful as one with pets. The petless cannot tank directly or indirectly, contributes little damage, and gains no benefit from its innate ability.
Ya know, this thread is mostly opinion, but it's really stupid in a lot of ways. Let me explain.
First, I have played since beta, I have all five anniversary badges on my Main fire/fire tanker. I have six lvl 50 heroes on pinnacle alone, my primary server. I have five MM's, all lvl 50. Thugs, necro, mercs, and bots all are pet MM's just like everyone thinks you should have.
My ninja/trick arrow...is entirely petless. Yes, he's lvl 50. I soloed him the whole way, except for about an hour helping a new player with his cape mish.
I play this character a good 60% of my playtime. It says it in the "search comment" that I am petless. Any team inviting me knows in advance they are getting a petless MM.
I have honestly saved the life of many brutes, corrupters, and Dom's that I have teamed with. Much to their surprise.
I won't try to claim this character is the most powerful out there. I won't claim he is better than any other character. I have seen a few characters that I was more valuable then, and perhaps that is sad...but THAT isn't the point.
The point is, in five years I have seen most everything done with characters. I have experienced it from both the player role and the partner role. Some concepts given years ago were laughed away and treated like the worst ideas in the world...only to be taken by a determined player and proven to work.
My MM is a concept build, but I built him mostly because I like MM's and I wanted to try something new and different. Something that wasn't being done by many. I am the type who likes to do what everyone else says can't be done.
It's my money, and I can pay to play any character I want however I want. I still get crap for my "jedi" controller, or my defender that didn't take speed boost with his kinetics set.
Still, I play them as I designed them. Concept builds are not intended to be powerful effective characters that contribute to a team. They are intended to be fun. Fun to play and roleplay, if you like.
Don't say that Petless MM's can't be done. There are several lvl 50's out there to prove that wrong. Don't say they are stupid and worthless, that is only an opinion...they all vary.
Don't claim you can't find a team or be useful to a team. My trick arrow set has given many teams that little extra edge. Sure, it's not what a defender can do...but I am not a defender. I am not better than one, but I am my own creation.
If you like the idea of a petless MM, go for it. It can be fun. you might decide it's a waste and scrap them. It's still your game, play it as you please.
Lastly, this game isn't just about dealing major damage, uber heals, and utterly destroying every baddie in the game. When you play that way, you run out of ideas and content extremely quickly. This game has the ability to let you do a million things, regardless of what someone else might see as a valid or useful task.
Do what you want, and don't tell others it's a bad idea or stupid. If you tried it, please share your experience. Otherwise, your comments are off-subject. If you don't like the idea, don't want to try the idea...then fine, no one tried to force you otherwise. Just don't tell me how lame or worthless I will be doing this idea.
There is more to CoX than damage and heals. More than buffs and debuffs. This is a game based on comic books, super-heroes villains. This game is about the characters in it....not what they do. Run with that, and I bet you will find many years of fun in these old worn streets.
Cheers.
Petless MMs are like burritos without sauce!
not new thread is still not new.
a thread like this crops up constantly. lemme bottom line it for you:
IF you only care bout your concept and dont care about team or solo viability - go for it
however, IF Yo uthink you will EVER want to team and IF you want to be able to do the dev created content post 40 - ANY of it - petless doesnt work. period.
these conclusions were tested thoroughly - two years ago. and i havent seen any buffs to mm's attacks in that time to make them any more viable.
Staalker: You play the game your way, and I'll play the game my way - however, my way involves kicking people who play your way off my team.
The bottom line - when I get a mastermind on my team, I want a mastermind. I don't want a third of a corruptor. If you fail to meet my extremely low expectations of what a party member should do, you're not welcome in a team that I lead. This means tankers without mez protection. It means kins without SB. It means sonics without shields and it definitely means MMs without pets.
I have fun in this game when I have teams that do well. Do I have to be playing the best possible builds? No. Do I have to playing a build that can go up to an average spawn on most difficulties and handle it without too much trouble? Yes. Do I have to be playing a build where I don't feel like dead weight on a team because I'm less than half of my archetype? Yes.
If I'm an employer and I'm hiring for a job that involves heavy lifting and one guy shows up with only one arm, hell yes I'm not going to hire him.
...or you could just wait a few months for Going Rouge, and gain the ability to have pretty much most of the best of both worlds. Want Archery with buffing/debuffing (except Poison)? Bring a Defender to the Redside. Really want to play Dual Pistols? Looks like that's happening, too.
My advice would be, have patience. Getting a petless MM to 50 might be some kind of weird feather to stick in your cap, but I can't imagine that character would be half as much fun or a tenth as effective as the options Going Rogue seems to have in store.
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Staalker: You play the game your way, and I'll play the game my way - however, my way involves kicking people who play your way off my team.
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I don't think he asked to join your team.
I don't think would even if he were invited.
Hell, I sincerely doubt he cares whether or not you kick like a mule.
Face it, who wants to play with the minuscule population of crabby whiners who rant and rave about how "gimp" someone's build is in a game where you can earn XP by rolling your face back and forth on the keyboard, especially considering that the vast majority of players are much more friendly and less likely to pitch a hissy because someone isn't sporting their definition of an acceptable build.
There's a significant difference between 'their definition of an acceptable build' and an objective massive self-handicap. Let's face it, Masterminds are defined by their pets, and going without them is for crazy people. You can't deny that.
I'm in agreement that a totally petless MM would be pretty gimp. I mean it's not like you have much else to do, unless you have a particularly busy secondary you want to micromanage. That said, I wouldn't really fault a MM for only bringing out certain pets rather than all of them all the time. They can be a handful sometimes, but then that's to be expected with an MM.
On a slightly related note, I wish you could have more of one set of a certain kind of pet (like the Oni or Lich) instead of a set of each kind. If any of you played or were familiar with the Necromancer class in AoC, you had pet "points" that you could spend, up to 11, and each type of pet had a different cost, 2 points, 4 points each etc. Basically, if you just wanted a couple of your best pets out, you could do that. Or you could have even more lower cost pets out if you so chose.
I think it would offer another dimension of variety and customization to the game if a similar system was adopted for MM's.
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Masterminds are defined by their pets, and going without them is for people who care more about concept than about soulless numbers.
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FTFY.
p.s.: I always warn potential teams when I'm running petless.
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Staalker: You play the game your way, and I'll play the game my way - however, my way involves kicking people who play your way off my team.
The bottom line - when I get a mastermind on my team, I want a mastermind. I don't want a third of a corruptor. If you fail to meet my extremely low expectations of what a party member should do, you're not welcome in a team that I lead. This means tankers without mez protection. It means kins without SB. It means sonics without shields and it definitely means MMs without pets.
I have fun in this game when I have teams that do well. Do I have to be playing the best possible builds? No. Do I have to playing a build that can go up to an average spawn on most difficulties and handle it without too much trouble? Yes. Do I have to be playing a build where I don't feel like dead weight on a team because I'm less than half of my archetype? Yes.
If I'm an employer and I'm hiring for a job that involves heavy lifting and one guy shows up with only one arm, hell yes I'm not going to hire him.
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A /Kin without SB, in no way, shape, form or fashion is comparable to a MM w/no pets.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
A MM with no pets is like a Scrapper with 2 attacks and none of their toggles, a Stalker without Hide, a Dominator that never uses Domination...
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A MM with no pets is like a Scrapper with 2 attacks and none of their toggles, a Stalker without Hide, a Dominator that never uses Domination...
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Well with my Mind/Psi Dom, I actually do forget to use DOmination. I can usually go 2 or 3 missions before I remember domination, and I really do not have that much difficulty. Then again, Mind locks down pretty effectively.
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Fallout Fae 50 Rad/Rad Defender
Cosmic Static 50 Elec3 Blaster
Reparative 50 EM/EA Stalker
Poseur 50 Mind/Psi Dom
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A MM with no pets is like a Scrapper with 2 attacks and none of their toggles, a Stalker without Hide, a Dominator that never uses Domination...
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Well with my Mind/Psi Dom, I actually do forget to use DOmination. I can usually go 2 or 3 missions before I remember domination, and I really do not have that much difficulty. Then again, Mind locks down pretty effectively.
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Forgetting to use it and refusing to use it are two different things.
My opinions always been petless is waste of time. It's the players 15 bucks if they want to play petless. I just wont have it on my team, its my 15 bucks and my preference.
I thought I read somewhere that BaBs didn't see Dual Pistols coming anytime soon.