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Well,
You know what they say about repeatedly doing the same thing over and over,
and yet expecting a different result. . .
.
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"They" didn't say it, Einstein said it.
[/ QUOTE ] Yes, 'They' say it a lot, quoting the original[ QUOTE ]
And NC Soft has proved often enough that they are willing to listen to their customers, so if this is kept on the radar NC Soft might implement it.
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LOL... That always amuse me when people try to use it to defend beating poor dead horses yet again.
The fact that people whined endlessly about something does NOT prove that the whining is what caused it. The devs have things they think are good for the game, and things they don't. They do them when they want to, and think it will help the game,
If the devs like something, and think is do-able, they will do it. If they think an idea is bad, or unfeasible, they WON'T do it. . . no matter how much whining there is for it.
There was a really funny childrens book long ago about a dog who was absolutely SURE that it was he that made the sun come up in the morning, by barking until it rose.
It was hilarious.
.
I'm one of the laziest marketeers you will ever meet. I know what salvage vendors for, I typically put it on market at that price +10% without even bothering to check the current market. I check market prices for recipes before I vendor them, but most times it's simply a formality -- the market price on a recipe I'm likely to find is a tiny fraction of its vendor price, meaning nobody else wanted this recipe any more than I did. I do this redside. I do this blueside. What invariably happens is that redside, I arrive at lvl 22 looking to upgrade to SOs with 400k to spend, and blueside I arrive at level 22 with two million to spend. Trying to slot SO enhancements and beyond redside reminds me of blueside before they introduced the market. I'm trying to slog it out, figuring if I can push one cash cow through redside it'll make all my other villains easier, but frankly I don't care that much about playing villains. I'd rather play a hero, AND the game is more fun.
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I'm one of the laziest marketeers you will ever meet. I know what salvage vendors for, I typically put it on market at that price +10% without even bothering to check the current market. I check market prices for recipes before I vendor them, but most times it's simply a formality -- the market price on a recipe I'm likely to find is a tiny fraction of its vendor price, meaning nobody else wanted this recipe any more than I did. I do this redside. I do this blueside. What invariably happens is that redside, I arrive at lvl 22 looking to upgrade to SOs with 400k to spend, and blueside I arrive at level 22 with two million to spend. Trying to slot SO enhancements and beyond redside reminds me of blueside before they introduced the market. I'm trying to slog it out, figuring if I can push one cash cow through redside it'll make all my other villains easier, but frankly I don't care that much about playing villains. I'd rather play a hero, AND the game is more fun.
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In short, the villain market sucks rotten eggs.
So merge them already.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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Positron stated that initially that Heroes had existed for several years and villainside was in its infancy. He stated that initially they wished to keep the markets separate but might revisit the topic at a later date. At the time, datamining showed that because Heroes existed for so much longer there was much more wealth accumulated heroside and it was thought that Villains would be unable to compete. Clearly, villains would have no problem competing with hero buyers now.
Then probably a year or so after the markets were created Ex Libris stated that she preferred a more dynamic market place (unmerged) than a more stable market place (merged). This opinion is very rational and based on economics. A merged market is more stable. An unmerged market is more dynamic. These states of the market are due to increased competition. More competition is more stability.
I believe my memory is accurate on these two statements. If my post is misleading or stated in slightly the wrong way than, anyone, feel free to correct me.
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You won't find the thread it's long since been eaten by the forum monster.
I don't have the exact quote but since the devs never visit the market forums Ex Libris was sent in to scribe Positron's comments.
The statement made was that heroes had too large a head start on villians in terms of influence and salvage for him to ok a market merger at that time. It didn't preclude a merger in the future but was not going to happen at that time.
Uberguy was quick to point out that the second half of that statement was bogus since base salvage (which now no longer drops) came into existance at the exact same time as villians.
Invention salvage wasn't added until I9 so no head start there either. Some folks think he mis-spoke or perhaps was mis-remembering. I think he was just shooting from the hip and didn't want to go to the trouble of looking up the actual data.
Ex Libris stated that her personal preference (not her professional viewpoint) was the red side market because it was easier to make inf there and that she had made multi-millions there by taking advantage of those fluctuations in the market.
Since that time the devs have released statements that it is the same game. BaB said that there is a single field that denotes whether a toon is a villian or a hero.
The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.
The 2 games (that are actually the same game) have been coming more and more together all the time though. There hasn't been more than a smattering of one side or the other content added since I7. It's all been coop content or both sides content and BaB has said that we can expect more of that in the future. They are unlikely to add more content to only one side.
Mission Architect will allow content to be played by any faction on any server so the games are being merged more and more as time goes on. I for one wish they would get to it and remove all the artificial divides. The main ones that cause me the most trouble are the artificially divided markets and the inability to gift a villian teammate an awaken in coop content.
Artificially divided as they are now it is a detriment to coop play, PvP, and marketing unless of course you are exploiting the lower market population red side to earn influence.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Looking at it from Villain perspective: There are a lot more things I have the option of buying, and everything costs a lot more.
Looking at it from Hero perspective: There's a little bit more stuff for me to buy, costs have gone down slightly (though almost too slight to notice) and someone's finally buying all those pet IO recipes.
As a primarily villainous player, I'd be willing to pay blueside prices if I have the entire blueside menu to choose from. For heroes there is no drawback, and for villains the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.
Very funny thread.
Mostly in what isn't being said. Which is how a merged market would be a giant boost for the purchasing power of the people who have done well redside working the thin market. They would now have inexpensive goods to spend their infamy on.
While, a merged market would undoubtedly benefit everyone in the long run, this is a game and giving any particular group a giant benefit needs to be considered carefully.
I'm not sure if merging the markets would sove the fundamental problems of the markets to begin with, the biggest is getting more people using the markets to begin with.
I'm part of a small (only 6 really active players) Super Group and for almost 4 issues I was the only one to really use the market and I'm still the only one who reads the forums, they all depend on me to get the information to them. I can tell you how their casual mindset works.
They get a drop and unless it's something that they "knew" selled for big bucks (orange salvage like hammi goo) they would normally just sell it at the vendor because when they checked the prices for the other stuff 6 months back all they saw were items selling for 10 inf each so why bother listing it at all with those prices? I finally got most of them to change their ways, mostly by explaining things to them over vent and sending links to certain threads from here but it was a long struggle to get them to see the light.
I doubt the majority of the "casual" population has had this type of help.
Now I don't think there's anything to do to help some of the market problems at this point (too many different types of salvage in each tier and some being used in too many of the "popular" recipes causing prices to skyrocket on those items) but there are steps the Devs can take to correct the problems even if they don't want to merge the markets.
Increase the number of past bids we can see, either in one shot or by making a click to expand. This might help those who can't play often a better chance to see how the prices can change over a larger period of time.
The main way to get people to use the markets is to either a) force them to use it or b) make it worh their time to use it.
For a) the simplest way to do this would be to no longer permit the selling of salvage and recipes to vendors. Either you put it on the market or delete it. I don't see this as a good plan though, the devs have already stated that the markets are optional and you can ignore them if you wished. Since they reduced the earning potential in this game already by decreasing the amount of enhancements that drop by getting rid of high level T.O.'s and the increases in leveling speed by xp smoothing and patrol xp I don't think those that don't wish to set foot in the market should be punished this way.
That said, the other option is to make it worth their while to use the market. The easist way to do this is to set a minium price for every item sold. I thinking 120% of what you would get from a vendor. So if you had a pice of common salvage you wouldn't be able to list it for less than 300 inf. not a large difference compaired to the 250 you would get right away by selling to a vendor but better than them showing up at the wrong time, seeing it worth 10 inf and deciding that the market isn't worth thier time and never setting foot in there again without having someone explain the market to them and how it works several times. (these people do exist, trust me on that)
Merging the markets might improve the situation but I really think the first step is to get more people using it in the first place. I know setting a bottom price on the listings will interfere on how some people make cash (I've bought for less than the vendors price and then sold it for a tidy profit myself) or increase the cost of getting the crafting badges (no more stacks of salvage for 10 inf each) but I really think it would be the easist way to breath new life into the markets.
Devs would post more if they could say "hi!" without people whining because they wanted them to say "hello".
-Nethergoat
Honestly the only way I use the market is I dump stuff on priced to sell immediately and when I went to buy something I jack it up by ten or twenty thousand just to get it back immediately. And this is only based on the last five bids or whatever.
It's play money and I have millions of it by the time I need it, don't particularly care about getting the super duper IO sets, I'd wager most people that play the game don't really pay attention to their existence. In that sense it doesn't work much like a "real" market. I would love if my villains could get common IOs easier though.
Well since you can buy common IOs for inf straight up the only real issue if you don't work sets is getting the right salvage.
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and failing positron? LOL- that stupid TF doesn't even have an AV in it- a 3 person team even at lvl 10 will wreck it if the players are half competent.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, my level 10 Heroes wreck +5 Ruin Mages, Spectral Daemon Lords, and Abominations all the time.[/sarcasm]
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Or as someone else put it - the heroside market would make the redside market a tasty snack before going on to business as usual.
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And this exactly what villains want, as it would make the stuff prized by villains cheap, while the stuff heroes want would still have high prices. Villains would bye for less and sell for more.
What's not to like, from a villain perspective?
And, as people say, the blueside market would not change by much, so heroes don't really lose anything.
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Blueside: 95 Bidding, 3 For sale
Redside: 56 Bidding, 0 For sale
merged: 151 Bidding, 3 for sale
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Bigger market = smaller fluctuation and less room for flippers. The danger here is the zero people bidding hero side in the above example. Zero bidders opens up to under-bids, where you place a bid of perhaps 1 million and hope people are careless when they post, With markets merged, there is always a bigger chance that someone is bidding, leaving less room for flippers.
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The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.
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Thankfully, this is not true - what you are talking here is a nasty bug, not a feature. It is a real pain in the [censored] bug too.
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With both markets it is virtual impossible to get everything (sometimes even a small part of everything) you want without working the market in the first place. This would not change, only the amount of work needed to get the item.
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This is very true. It is also a strong reason to merge the markets - finding stuff will be much easier on a bigger market.
EvilGecko is making an amazing case here. I came unconvinced and biased to not merging and he has convinced me, at least if his interpretation of supply and demand.
The arguments being offered against don't make sense.
Let's say that there are 100 and 20 mu vestments at 300k and 100k respectively. So Billz said guess what happens to that supply? It goes to the hero bidders, but also lowers the prices listed at the bid history. So people start bidding less. Meanwhile there is more money going to vills on many categories.
But the real big deal is with those items that are almost nonexistent. Let's say there are 10 per month and 1 per month respectively. The 1 per month will go to whoever puts up a ridiculous bid and the price fluctuates wildly 100k to 10m (there are items with such large swings). 1 person often has a monopoly as either a buyer or seller. Merging would stabilize that. The average price may go up a bit but you are less likely to have to make desperation bids.
In general the price of everything including inf would move towards the hero amount by some percentage around 60-80. You could expect more hero salvage, more vill inf, and less monopolies.
However, the primary issue would be with things that are inherently easier to get with either market. That is a far bigger obstacle to a merge than supply and demand. You could get a lot of people in the same market while some of them can not get into farms or TFs as easily.
So it's not supply and demand but an imbalance of production.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.
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Thankfully, this is not true - what you are talking here is a nasty bug, not a feature. It is a real pain in the [censored] bug too.
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It is indeed true. I did not say it wasn't a bug. The separation code is indeed meant as a feature (exploit fix). The inability to set a mission without everyone in the zone is the bug. It's also a bug that may not be able to be coded back out if they can't figure out how to leave the exploit fix in without it and it may not be easy to do in any case.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.
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Thankfully, this is not true - what you are talking here is a nasty bug, not a feature. It is a real pain in the [censored] bug too.
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It is indeed true. I did not say it wasn't a bug. The separation code is indeed meant as a feature (exploit fix). The inability to set a mission without everyone in the zone is the bug. It's also a bug that may not be able to be coded back out if they can't figure out how to leave the exploit fix in without it and it may not be easy to do in any case.
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My understanding is that this "feature" is to prevent setting (for example) a villain mission outside a co-op zone while on a mixed team (i.e. inside a co-op zone) and then using the Mission Teleporter to get the whole team to the mission. And obviously, vice-versa.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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I'm not sure if merging the markets would sove the fundamental problems of the markets to begin with, the biggest is getting more people using the markets to begin with.
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I agree that the biggest problem is to get more people using the market. And increasing the hero market by 50% population (and the villain market by 200%) does exactly that. Because that is what merging the markets would do.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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The devs have gone to great lengths to add code to artificially separate the sides. The most recent example of this is the one that prevents you from setting a mission unless all team members are in the same zone. This was done to prevent hero players from playing villian content in coop zones and vice-versa.
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Thankfully, this is not true - what you are talking here is a nasty bug, not a feature. It is a real pain in the [censored] bug too.
[/ QUOTE ]
It is indeed true. I did not say it wasn't a bug. The separation code is indeed meant as a feature (exploit fix). The inability to set a mission without everyone in the zone is the bug. It's also a bug that may not be able to be coded back out if they can't figure out how to leave the exploit fix in without it and it may not be easy to do in any case.
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My understanding is that this "feature" is to prevent setting (for example) a villain mission outside a co-op zone while on a mixed team (i.e. inside a co-op zone) and then using the Mission Teleporter to get the whole team to the mission. And obviously, vice-versa.
[/ QUOTE ]That's the intent of the feature. The bug is that it's affecting all arc missions in all zones.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*
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Bill,
This is flat out untrue. They have their spikes but fall back to the normal prices after in game events driving the spikes. Every time.
Luck Charms, as one example, sometimes spike up to 70k but then fall back to 50k-60k.
Perhaps at one time in the long distant past they were under 50k regularly but they have not continued to go up and up.
So there is no steady rate. Never has been.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
lets see, the nearest event that caused this surge was the winter event. and of course dual builds. i havent seen anything drop yet.
and here is where the real problem lies: for all of you that can afford things on the market whitout having to wipe the sweat off your brow, take a magical trip back to the land of the new/casual gamer. ever wonder why there are so few people that use the markets? when going in as a new/casual player you get overwhelmed by the prices for the things that are suppossed to be low lv things.
the problem is that just because you all have this obsured bank role, doesn't mean everyone else does. or that everyone should play that way. i have talked tpo people who i've seen go into WW/BM and left 5 secs after being there and asked them why and gotten this exact reason: everything is to high priced. that is from new/casual gamers. not my own feelings as do use the markets.
but seriously, roll a new toon, or not, and go look at the market as a new player with no knowledge of flipping or anything like that. now think about merging the market from the red side look, the one bill and i are using, if blue already has more money then red side, who do you think will win the Market war? blue side every time.
until red side can equal blue side buying/selling power, there is no way i can support a market merger. and seeing as how red side will never equal blue side, then no merger will ever happen.
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until red side can equal blue side buying/selling power, there is no way i can support a market merger. and seeing as how red side will never equal blue side, then no merger will ever happen.
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Aside from the fact that Villain flippers make FAR more profit than hero ones do, let's examine your presupposition.
Every time villains sell something in a merged market (assuming a hero wins the bid) Inf will be transferred from heroes to villains. This means that even IF there is more Inf on the hero side (a supposition I do not necessarily support) it will come to an equilibrium.
Then there is the matter of items such as Basilisk's Gaze set. They sell for 1k Inf for heroes, effectively vendor trash. They sell in the MILLIONS for villains. The price will come down simply because the supply goes up without the demand also going up. Pet Recipes are another item like this.
The Markets are dying. Well maybe not the hero market, but the villain market doesn't have the population to sustain it. AE Tickets will deliver the coup de grace. The best way to make sure there will continue to BE a villain market is to merge it with the hero one.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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lets see, the nearest event that caused this surge was the winter event. and of course dual builds. i havent seen anything drop yet.
and here is where the real problem lies: for all of you that can afford things on the market whitout having to wipe the sweat off your brow, take a magical trip back to the land of the new/casual gamer. ever wonder why there are so few people that use the markets? when going in as a new/casual player you get overwhelmed by the prices for the things that are suppossed to be low lv things.
the problem is that just because you all have this obsured bank role, doesn't mean everyone else does. or that everyone should play that way. i have talked tpo people who i've seen go into WW/BM and left 5 secs after being there and asked them why and gotten this exact reason: everything is to high priced. that is from new/casual gamers. not my own feelings as do use the markets.
but seriously, roll a new toon, or not, and go look at the market as a new player with no knowledge of flipping or anything like that. now think about merging the market from the red side look, the one bill and i are using, if blue already has more money then red side, who do you think will win the Market war? blue side every time.
until red side can equal blue side buying/selling power, there is no way i can support a market merger. and seeing as how red side will never equal blue side, then no merger will ever happen.
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You mean it's hard to start a toon and get money when all the common salvage you find sells for huge amounts of money?
Don't higher prices redside mean villains are able to afford higher prices? Doesn't that mean heroes would be disadvantaged?
I don't mind logical reasons against a merged market. Reasons such as "but prices will go up higher than both" and "one side is at a noticeable disadvantage" are simply wrong. The reasons supporting these claims are simply untrue, incompetence or stupidity.
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lets see, the nearest event that caused this surge was the winter event. and of course dual builds. i havent seen anything drop yet.
and here is where the real problem lies: for all of you that can afford things on the market whitout having to wipe the sweat off your brow, take a magical trip back to the land of the new/casual gamer. ever wonder why there are so few people that use the markets? when going in as a new/casual player you get overwhelmed by the prices for the things that are suppossed to be low lv things.
the problem is that just because you all have this obsured bank role, doesn't mean everyone else does. or that everyone should play that way. i have talked tpo people who i've seen go into WW/BM and left 5 secs after being there and asked them why and gotten this exact reason: everything is to high priced. that is from new/casual gamers. not my own feelings as do use the markets.
but seriously, roll a new toon, or not, and go look at the market as a new player with no knowledge of flipping or anything like that. now think about merging the market from the red side look, the one bill and i are using, if blue already has more money then red side, who do you think will win the Market war? blue side every time.
until red side can equal blue side buying/selling power, there is no way i can support a market merger. and seeing as how red side will never equal blue side, then no merger will ever happen.
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Well lets see. Since there is beginners luck and slotting TOs isn't worth the effort or inf in the lower levels I frequently slot only what drops and sell every thing else I get. I can sell 1/2 the Luck Charms I get (not to mention the spell scrolls, spiritual essences etc.) and have more than enough at level 12 to slot a complete set of DOs.
If I want to twink an Alt I have to wait around for my wife to sign on to make a transfer. Using the market for SELLING prior to level 12 I can make more than enough to set up a bank roll to start what ever I want to do for set IOs when I get to the level I start slotting sets (typically around level 32).
Since I9 I haven't had to twink an alt. I can earn all I need through the market just by selling drops at low level with out a bit of performance sacrifice. I have started alts on 3 servers that I didn't have a presence on and have a crafter on each of them with out even using the market for an influence transfer.
All you have to do when you see that the prices are high is have the lightbulb pop on over your head and become a low level seller instead of a low level consumer. It's easy as pie on blue side to make a crap ton of cash by doing just that.
Red side that's not the case. Frequently to get starting cash on red side you have to do arbitrage (my wife calls them junk runs) that exists because of selling badges.
Your complaint is similar to the high school kid that graduates and gets a minimum wage job in the caviar plant.
"I can't afford caviar and champagne!"
He's going to have to work in the caviar plant at minmum wage selling it and live on beer and pizza until he makes enough money to go to college get a degree and get a job that pays well enough that he can afford caviar and champagne.
There are too freaking many people in the world today with an entitlement mentality.
It's like pitching a fit that you can't have your tier 9 secondary power at level 10.....
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I haven't purchased an enhancement weaker than a lv25 IO since I9 launch >.>
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I haven't purchased an enhancement weaker than a lv25 IO since I9 launch >.>
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I have. I sell luck charms and get 40-50k each out of them and then turn around and buy level 10 accuracy IOs for 10k or less apiece.
Edit - I haven't done this since the devs added beginners luck though.
Getting your crafting badges requires creating more of one type of enhancer than one character can typically slot. The left overs get placed on the market by the badgers for much less than cost (they get to recoup some of the cost that way) to clear needed inventory space to continue crafting.
Crafting badges and alt twinking account for blue side high luck charm prices not some collusion of evil marketeers.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Yes something is wrong.
You are using an example where red sells things at a higher price then blue. I already believe anywhere red side is higher will drop to blue level or raise to be in the middle somewhere.