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This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.
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Well,
You know what they say about repeatedly doing the same thing over and over,
and yet expecting a different result. . .
.
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"They" didn't say it, Einstein said it.
And NC Soft has proved often enough that they are willing to listen to their customers, so if this is kept on the radar NC Soft might implement it.
Or not from Smurphy's Ex Libris quote. Doesn't matter to me, the market doesn't exist for me since Merits came out. I'd love to change that, but until they merge it's not happening.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*
Yeah. OK, you keep playing with your formulas, then. Have fun. I'll actually watch what people (who aren't in Cells F11-G25) do.
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Are you actually implying that Smurphy doesn't have any experience in the CoX market? Bill? Really?
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He's sat through a market merge before? Really?
I'm saying that (a) peoples greed and (b) dislike of "losing" money, even if they'd potentially make more (aka, auction fees - something, by the way, tested in other non-game areas,) combined with (c) the larger and more active heroside market would trump his graphs and equations.
Or as someone else put it - the heroside market would make the redside market a tasty snack before going on to business as usual.
How can people not understand "When there are more buyers than sellers at a certain price than competition causes prices to go up" and "when there are more sellers than buyers at a certain price than competition causes prices to go down"?
Is that such a complicated process? Is that so difficult? Apparently so.
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I'm saying that (a) peoples greed and (b) dislike of "losing" money, even if they'd potentially make more (aka, auction fees - something, by the way, tested in other non-game areas,) combined with (c) the larger and more active heroside market would trump his graphs and equations.
Or as someone else put it - the heroside market would make the redside market a tasty snack before going on to business as usual.
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(A) Players greed is what causes prices to go between the two markets. People want to buy as cheaply as possible. People want to sell for as much as possible. Eventually the two prices meet somewhere in the middle
(B) Dislike of losing money is what causes prices to go between the two markets. Some people will get screwed over if they tried to keep the prices the same as they are now or higher. If the price is "too high" some people will try to sell and fail. Competition between these sellers makes prices go down.
(C) That means prices will be closer to heroside than villainside.
Really? How is this difficult to understand?
Educate yourself:"This is a bit of a problem, however. If at $2 the market demands 12 widgets and only 3 are produced, theyll be 9 people without widgets. There is a shortage in the marketplace. Widgets are scarce. Because those nine people know they will not get a widget unless they pay more, they bid up the price. A few of these nine people will not be willing to pay as much as they must to obtain a widget. A few of them will, however. This process eventually leads to an equilibrium price and quantity, where the suppliers produce exactly how many the market demands at a set price. "
Learn
Think
I don't think that merging will cause the ratio of buyers and sellers to sway enough to have a noiticeable effect on CoH prices or player sell policies.
well, i blame the market guides in part. with eveyones "buy low sell high" guides this is what happens. had the guides read "buy low sell reasonable" this might be a different story. so to the people who play the markets, your guides screwed you on this topic and has also screwed you on the amount of buyers/sellers there are. why do you think it is that only about 15% of the population uses the markets? of course it cant be because people cut into your niches and you had to find something else could it? and now that your running out of stuff to niche, you want a bigger audience with more useless recipes to niche on. it really is possible(as i have seen with my own 2 eyes, well 4 eyes if you count my glasses) that the recipes that are worthless on blue side are just as useless on red side. oh no.
so merging the markets would not help anyone but the blue side. if people dont want to pay the prices red side now, what makes you think they will want to pay the higher prices if the markets are merged.
"A few of these nine people will not be willing to pay as much as they must to obtain a widget." -Red Side with it's smaller population and disposable income
"A few of them will, however." -Blue Side because they've both accumulated more wealth per account and have a larger population
Learn
Think
so if im reading your statement right, it says " let red side suffer while blue side prospers". that is exactly what everyone for a merger is saying as i read it. and apparently how a few other people read it. stop thinking real world economics while your on the game and think fun. its a GAME.
all that the "flipping" has done is scare off many people from the markets. if you look at the supply, it hits you right in the face with a wrecking ball. each market has 10 servers combined to buy and sell from. we all know this. so 15% of the entire population(all servers) is using the markets. now bear in mind that 15% isnt a real figure but based off supply it doesnt seem that far off.
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"A few of these nine people will not be willing to pay as much as they must to obtain a widget." -Red Side with it's smaller population and disposable income
"A few of them will, however." -Blue Side because they've both accumulated more wealth per account and have a larger population
Learn
Think
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Are you making fun of yourself? Is this satirical? I don't understand what you are trying to say. What you ARE saying is that prices will go in between the two sides.
they will not go in between. the prices for high prices for things on blue that are cheaper on red will stay the same. the high prices for stuff on the red will transfer to the blue effectively raising the prices on that stuff now making it a higher price. all prices do is go up and not down.
until the population equals out on both sides, this should never be considered. and dont say that if the markets merge that people will come over to the red side. why would you do that if you can make all this money blue. i dont see how this is so unseeable by the people for this. oh, maybe it's the dollar signs in their eyes.
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they will not go in between. the prices for high prices for things on blue that are cheaper on red will stay the same. the high prices for stuff on the red will transfer to the blue effectively raising the prices on that stuff now making it a higher price. all prices do is go up and not down.
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Let's look at some City of Heroes examples and apply some rational thought.
Miracle: +Recovery (Recipe) Level 40
Blueside: 95 Bidding, 3 For sale; Last 5 65M, 65M, 66M, 60M, 60M
Redside: 56 Bidding, 0 For sale; Last 5 100M, 100M, 90M, 65M, 95M
Blueside Equilibrium Price is probably around 60-65M. At prices ABOVE 65M on Blueside more people are willing and able to sell than to buy. At prices BELOW 60M there are more people willing and able to buy than to sell.
Redside Equilibrium Price is probably around 90-115M. At prices ABOVE 115M more people are like willing and able to sell than to buy. At prices below 90% more people are willing and able to buy than sell.
Let's add some volume. Heroside there are probably 5-10 exchanges of Miracles a day. Currently there has only been 1 so far today. Villainside there are probably 2-3 a day. Yesterday and today have had 2 total.
Now we can put this together and say on average about 7 people are willing and able to buy and sell at 65M Heroside. Somewhere above this price more are willing to sell than buy. Somewhere below the opposite. On villainside on average let's say there are 2 people willing and able to buy and sell at 95M. At some point above more sellers, at some point below more buyers.
Now let's combine the markets. At a price of 95M we have at least 9 People willing and able to sell. We know there are 7 (seven) from heroside who would sell at 65 and 2 (two) from villainside who would sell at 95M. At a price of 95M we have only 2 people who we know are willing and able to buy at that price. Those two are from villainside. We know there are 7 people willing and able to buy at 65M. They might not be willing to pay 95M however.
So we know 65M is likely "too low" because we have more certain buyers (9) than certain sellers (7). At a price of 95M we have more certain sellers (9) than certain buyers (2).
Therefore, prices go between the two original prices.
So greatly adding to demand and marginally adding to supply causes prices to drop...
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So greatly adding to demand and marginally adding to supply causes prices to drop...
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Explain to me how you came to this conclusion.
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(c) the larger and more active heroside market would trump his graphs and equations.
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All jokes aside, Bill. Do you really believe that economics and business run this way? What Smurphy is saying would not be disputed by any reputable economist. It's just that fundamental.
You're just guessing what would happen. Smurphy is applying a theory that has proven itself true for hundreds of years. You don't have to believe us, you simply have to go out there and learn a bit out simple economics.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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(c) the larger and more active heroside market would trump his graphs and equations.
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All jokes aside, Bill. Do you really believe that economics and business run this way? What Smurphy is saying would not be disputed by any reputable economist. It's just that fundamental.
You're just guessing what would happen. Smurphy is applying a theory that has proven itself true for hundreds of years. You don't have to believe us, you simply have to go out there and learn a bit out simple economics.
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Oh snap. This just got real.
Blueside: 95 Bidding, 3 For sale
Redside: 56 Bidding, 0 For sale
merged: 151 Bidding, 3 for sale
Give me the dates on last sales and not your undocumented extrapolations and I might view things a little differently.
The mods have said merging would be bad. Prove to me they are wrong. ^_^
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So greatly adding to demand and marginally adding to supply causes prices to drop...
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If you read the rest of the thread, paying particular attention to Smurphy's posts you can get the information needed to understand what he's saying.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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He's sat through a market merge before? Really?
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Just as many as you have, Bill. However, not only does he have the theory craft down, he's got more inf than one character can hold to back it up ~ and everyone knows how it got it.
As far as the market goes, Smurphy is my EF Hutton. When he talks, I listen.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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The mods have said merging would be bad.
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No they have not.
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Let's add some volume. Heroside there are probably 5-10 exchanges of Miracles a day. Currently there has only been 1 so far today. Villainside there are probably 2-3 a day. Yesterday and today have had 2 total.
[/ QUOTE ] Without dates I have no idea how he got 5-10 exchanges per day off of the 1 sale. He says The other side has been sees 2-3 sales a day...based on the fact 2 have been sold int he last two days.
To show how this market flows you need actual data. The people with this data went "woahhh...no".
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Let's add some volume. Heroside there are probably 5-10 exchanges of Miracles a day. Currently there has only been 1 so far today. Villainside there are probably 2-3 a day. Yesterday and today have had 2 total.
[/ QUOTE ] Without dates I have no idea how he got 5-10 exchanges per day off of the 1 sale. He says The other side has been sees 2-3 sales a day...based on the fact 2 have been sold int he last two days.
To show how this market flows you need actual data. The people with this data went "woahhh...no".
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Look up the data yourself and provide alternatives. I would be very pleased if you would provide accurate data. As you can see by my use of "probably" and "let's say" that I was making numbers up. I was making up these numbers as general estimations of averages to enlighten you on how economics works. Please, feel free to make up your own numbers that somehow show that the price will NOT go between the two original prices. No matter what numbers you make up, and please go ahead a try, the resulting price will be between the two original prices.
In the most simple understanding possible think of two bowls of soup. One bowl is really big and really hot. We'll call this "Hero Soup." One bowl is small and warm. We'll call this "villain soup." Now pour the two together. We'll call this "merged soup."
The "merged soup" is not as hot as "Hero soup". The "merged soup" is more hot than the "villain soup. Because the "hero soup" is much bigger than the "villain soup" the "merged soup's" temperature is much closer to the original "hero soup" than the "villain soup."
Here's the rub. Somewhere on the issue following the birth of the market (or the following one I didn't date it). There was a reply to the request for merging the markets. It was said then that with the exception of a few areas Blue side would dominate and run the market with red side being pulled along.
I tried to search but the 200 return limit is killing me. The red's have made their choice in words and action, to prove them wrong you need to provide data based on hard numbers.
Positron stated that initially that Heroes had existed for several years and villainside was in its infancy. He stated that initially they wished to keep the markets separate but might revisit the topic at a later date. At the time, datamining showed that because Heroes existed for so much longer there was much more wealth accumulated heroside and it was thought that Villains would be unable to compete. Clearly, villains would have no problem competing with hero buyers now.
Then probably a year or so after the markets were created Ex Libris stated that she preferred a more dynamic market place (unmerged) than a more stable market place (merged). This opinion is very rational and based on economics. A merged market is more stable. An unmerged market is more dynamic. These states of the market are due to increased competition. More competition is more stability.
I believe my memory is accurate on these two statements. If my post is misleading or stated in slightly the wrong way than, anyone, feel free to correct me.
Just to put it all on the table this is how I see it. Anywhere Blue has active trade higher then villains the price would not drop because heroes have more buying and selling power.
Anywhere red has an active market higher then Blue it would fluctuate and probably drop to at blue level or int he middle.
With both markets it is virtual impossible to get everything (sometimes even a small part of everything) you want without working the market in the first place. This would not change, only the amount of work needed to get the item.
The dev's heard peoples complaints about not being able to get what they want when supply was bad and their answer was to install a method where you could work towards you goal (merits). They have contemplated a merge and have not done it.
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Anywhere Blue has active trade higher then villains the price would not drop because heroes have more buying and selling power.
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This can't work. I will demonstrate to you why slowly. I'm going to walk you through this one step at a time. We're going to go slowly. We will go slowly because you need to build on simple concepts. I need to make sure you understand the simple concepts.
First...
Miracle +Regeneration Recipe Blueside trades for around 60-65M. Prices above this are "too high". They are too high because more wish to sell than to buy. Prices below this are "too slow." They are too low because more wish to buy than to sell. Thus, prices are where they are on each side of the market because of Supply and Demand. Prices tend to go towards, but may not be always exactly at the Equilibrium Price (the point where Supply and Demand Cross).
Is this true? Anything wrong with these statements?
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*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*
Yeah. OK, you keep playing with your formulas, then. Have fun. I'll actually watch what people (who aren't in Cells F11-G25) do.
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Are you actually implying that Smurphy doesn't have any experience in the CoX market? Bill? Really?
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.