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Did we not already do the flipping experiment where someone showed they could buy and sell and control price.
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The experiment was done and it showed that one could NOT buy and sell and control price and retain a profit.
*EDIT* The experiment worked because of the same reasons that you can't make people get 'used to higher prices." Players can only earn so much money in the game. Players only have so much money to spend. You can't make players get used to paying a price they are unwilling or unable to pay. If earning is the same and the price of one item goes up the price of another item must go down (or if you want to get technical the rate of saving verse spending could change).
Prices are where they are on the City of Heroes markets because of Supply and Demand. If the price was higher more people would want to sell than buy. Some sellers would get stuck with the items. Sellers don't want to get stuck with their item so they compete with each other and list items at lower prices to sell. If the price was lower more people would want to sell than buy. Some buyers want to pay but can't obtain the item. Buyers compete and raise their bids to try and get the item.
Apply this concept to a market merger. Imagine the price on heroside side is 100 and the price villainside side is 50. If the price was 100 on villainside more people would wish to sell than to buy. There are "economic forces" trying to push the price lower when the price is 100 on villainside. These forces exist because sellers want to sell their items and need to compete to do so. Thus, if the markets merged there are more buyers than sellers at a price of 50. There are more sellers than buyers at a price of 100. Somewhere in the middle there is balance.
The quantity demanded and the quantity supplied at certain prices does not change in a market merger because people "get used to the price" or "feelings" nor "faeries" nor "gnomes" nor any other silly theories. People only have so much money to spend. Players are only "willing and able" to spend so much money. You cannot spend money you don't have.
You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
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You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
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... which was what I was saying. He thinks it'll go *down.*
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
Which is weird considering his signature.
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You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
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... which was what I was saying. He thinks it'll go *down.*
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
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The only thing you need to have faith in is greed. Tell me where you fall off the train of rational thought.
1) As prices goes up the quantity demanded goes down and as prices goes down the quantity demanded goes up.
2) As prices goes up quantity supplied goes up and as price goes down the quantity supplied goes down.
3) The price where the quantity supplied is equal to the quantity demanded is called "Equilibrium Price."
4) Prices above "Equilibrium Price" have more people trying to sell than to buy.
5) Prices below "Equilibrium Price" have more people trying to buy than to sell.
6) At prices above Equilibrium Price some sellers who are willing and able to sell at the price are unable to sell their item.
7) Being unable to sell their item causes some sellers to lower their price.
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Which is weird considering his signature.
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If you don't sell your item, you've got no gold. You've just got an item sitting in your market inventory doing nothing. The price is "too high."
So when you say...[ QUOTE ]
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
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... I don't think you need to have any faith in people other than your faith that people are greedy. Some of those heroes won't sell their item at all. Some of them will realize that if they want any money they have to lower their price.
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You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
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... which was what I was saying. He thinks it'll go *down.*
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
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The only thing you need to have faith in is greed. Tell me where you fall off the train of rational thought.
1) As prices goes up the quantity demanded goes down and as prices goes down the quantity demanded goes up.
2) As prices goes up quantity supplied goes up and as price goes down the quantity supplied goes down.
3) The price where the quantity supplied is equal to the quantity demanded is called "Equilibrium Price."
4) Prices above "Equilibrium Price" have more people trying to sell than to buy.
5) Prices below "Equilibrium Price" have more people trying to buy than to sell.
6) At prices above Equilibrium Price some sellers who are willing and able to sell at the price are unable to sell their item.
7) Being unable to sell their item causes some sellers to lower their price.
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You forget
8) You remove the item from the market, you have gone from potential income to solid loss, with the market fee. Mathematical equations don't tend to have loss aversion psychology. Even if the loss would be almost unnoticable compared to the profit from lowering the price, say, 5k.
As far as the others?
1. Hasn't happened. Luck charms do almost nothing but go up in price.
2. "0 bids, 360 for sale." Since... well, 8.
3, 4, 5, 6. Yay. Most COH players aren't playing on a spreadsheet or with an economics book in their hand.
7. See 8. Also, some is not all. Some is not most. And when they see the others who stayed put selling at the original price (or higher,) they'll go right back to the old price.
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So when you say...[ QUOTE ]
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
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... I don't think you need to have any faith in people other than your faith that people are greedy. Some of those heroes won't sell their item at all. Some of them will realize that if they want any money they have to lower their price.
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And some will realize that, hey, they still have this massive hero market used to buying the item at the price they want, and leave it *right* where it is... as you say, "faith that people are greedy."
I think you just argued against your own point.
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And some will realize that, hey, they still have this massive hero market used to buying the item at the price they want, and leave it *right* where it is... as you say, "faith that people are greedy."
I think you just argued against your own point.
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What you "think" I've said and what I have actually said are very different. I use logic, reason, math and rational thought.
Let's apply these concepts and see what I said. Let's go back and look at two markets and how I merged them together. This post here is where I put them together. Let me sum it up for you.
Equilibrium Price of one market was $3. Equilibrium Price of the other market was $5. A price of $5 will not be sustained in a merged market because at a price of $5 there are 61 sellers and 21 buyers. 40 Buyers are unable to sell their item at the price they wish to sell their item. They might think "hey I can wait longer" but every day more buyers and more sellers will appear. Equilibrium Price is the balance price over a period of time. Every day more sellers are going to show up. The price may never rise enough for these sellers to unload their item for money.
So when you say ...."And some will realize that, hey, they still have this massive hero market used to buying the item at the price they want, " you are simply wrong. There is no other word than "wrong."
On heroside there may be 10,000 buyers and 10,000 sellers at a price of 500 every day. On villainside there may be 2,000 buyers and 2,000 sellers at a price of 200 every day. If these are the Equilibrium Prices... and yes... most salvage prices are very close to EP... than the resulting price will be between 10,000 and 2,000. Heroes CANNOT rely on the massive hero market. There are now 12,000 people willing to sell at a price of 500. There are not 12,000 willing to buy at a price of 500. Some of those 2,000 villain sellers will not be willing and able to pay 500. Some sellers will NOT sell their item.
Simple...
12,000 sellers and LESS THAN 12,000 buyers.
*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*
Yeah. OK, you keep playing with your formulas, then. Have fun. I'll actually watch what people (who aren't in Cells F11-G25) do.
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Treespec Trials. 45 Merits in 60 minutes. That beats both Positron and Citadel.
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So, for villians to compete with heroes they have to be lvl 44+ vs. a lvl 10+ for heroes.
No, no inequality at all.
Plus, I have yet to be on a treespec that wasn't 25-35 minutes.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
If nobody posts, then maybe it will die >_>
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You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
[/ QUOTE ]If villains stopped producing anything after the merger, that would be true.
Who are the heroes buying these items from after a merger, again? Anyone. Including villains.
If the market is merged, villain sellers will benefit more than villain buyers in the short term, until the wealth between the two sides of the game stabilizes. At that time (ie, in the long term), everyone - Hero sellers, Hero buyers, Villains sellers, and Villain buyers - is in the same boat, the very situation that Smurphy is describing.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Treespec Trials. 45 Merits in 60 minutes. That beats both Positron and Citadel.
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So, for villians to compete with heroes they have to be lvl 44+ vs. a lvl 10+ for heroes.
No, no inequality at all.
Plus, I have yet to be on a treespec that wasn't 25-35 minutes.
[/ QUOTE ]1) Treespecs are available 24+, not 44+.
2) It's rare that a merit farmer isn't level 50 anyway, regardless of what they are farming. A 50 has access to more inf/time, more slots, and better enhancements than any other level character.
3) Matthew Burke -> Billie Heck -> Dimitri Krylov = 31 merits by level 15, with only 1 contact in each 5-level block range
Flux -> (Jill Pastor or Kyle Peck or Tristan Caine) = 20 merits by level 15, with only 1 contact in each 5-level block range
In order for Heroes to surpass Villains in merit rewards in the early levels, they have to run what is often claimed to be one of the worst TFs in the game. And barring a superteam, you're simply not going to take 8 level 10 characters through Positron successfully, and probably not even 3 level 10 characters. By the time the heroes have a chance of completing Positron in a time frame that makes it worth it for more than just the badge, Villains have access to Virgil Tarikoss, the villainside Katie.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Treespec Trials. 45 Merits in 60 minutes. That beats both Positron and Citadel.
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So, for villians to compete with heroes they have to be lvl 44+ vs. a lvl 10+ for heroes.
No, no inequality at all.
Plus, I have yet to be on a treespec that wasn't 25-35 minutes.
[/ QUOTE ]1) Treespecs are available 24+, not 44+.
2) It's rare that a merit farmer isn't level 50 anyway, regardless of what they are farming. A 50 has access to more inf/time, more slots, and better enhancements than any other level character.
3) Matthew Burke -> Billie Heck -> Dimitri Krylov = 31 merits by level 15, with only 1 contact in each 5-level block range
Flux -> (Jill Pastor or Kyle Peck or Tristan Caine) = 20 merits by level 15, with only 1 contact in each 5-level block range
In order for Heroes to surpass Villains in merit rewards in the early levels, they have to run what is often claimed to be one of the worst TFs in the game. And barring a superteam, you're simply not going to take 8 level 10 characters through Positron successfully, and probably not even 3 level 10 characters. By the time the heroes have a chance of completing Positron in a time frame that makes it worth it for more than just the badge, Villains have access to Virgil Tarikoss, the villainside Katie.
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To get 45 merits from the treespec in under an hour you would have to do all of them. All 3 of them 24+ 34+ and 44+. so yes, lvl 44+ for villians vs. 64 at 10+ for heroes.
and failing positron? LOL- that stupid TF doesn't even have an AV in it- a 3 person team even at lvl 10 will wreck it if the players are half competent.
Nice comparisions to villians arcs but lets remeber- you can't re-do them until you open oroborus. You can just keep doing posi all you want.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
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and failing positron? LOL- that stupid TF doesn't even have an AV in it- a 3 person team even at lvl 10 will wreck it if the players are half competent.
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Half-competence can apparently overcome the purple patch. I'll write that one down.
Never surrender! Never give up!
Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
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*looks at the steady rate luck charms and other salvage have gone up.*
Yeah. OK, you keep playing with your formulas, then. Have fun. I'll actually watch what people (who aren't in Cells F11-G25) do.
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Obviously there is nothing in economics that could possibly describe a situation such as this one. Obviously, pricing slowly rising proves Supply and Demand don't work. You describe "Inflation." Inflation is the general level of the prices. Inflation can also be understood as the ratio of currency to goods. That number can be definable and does not negate the uses of Supply and Demand.
If you cannot understand the concept that at one price there are more buyers than sellers therefore forces likely cause the price to go up. Another price there are more sellers than buyers, therefore the price will likely go down. There's nothing about spreadsheets here. No fancy math. Just simply "there's more of you than of us." All you have to do is be capable of understanding that in either of those situations someone gets screwed over. Someone likes the current price but either can't sell or can't buy. Those someones will take actions of raising or lowering their prices to rectify the situation.
For some reason you can't or won't believe that.
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So, for villians to compete with heroes they have to be lvl 44+ vs. a lvl 10+ for heroes.
No, no inequality at all.
Plus, I have yet to be on a treespec that wasn't 25-35 minutes.
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It has already been stated that in a 1-50 comparison heroes make more merits. It has already been stated that in a Time per merit comparison, which is the important one and the one that matters, that heroes and villains are roughly the same. I've never been to Australia. That doesn't mean Australia doesn't exist. Do you need pictures and an instructional video?
Do you need pictures of the times to complete of each and every Strike Force? What evidence would be needed that shows you "Heroes and villains got it the same?" You can sway my opinion with facts and relevant data. Can I sway your opinion with facts and relevant data? The game has a system where the reward has been calculated based on time to completion. You don't believe this is true or fair because.... what? Yes, in the journey from 1-50 heroes produce more. However the more important number is time per merits. Time per merit is more important because that's how much time you had to spend and how much reward you got.
I understand there are many rational reasons not to merge the markets. What I don't understand is how people can be determined to keep irrational reasons that have no basis in the world of reality nor City of Heroes.
Making an argument complicated does not make it true.
I think merging the markets would be great, and more fair all around.
/Signed
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and failing positron? LOL- that stupid TF doesn't even have an AV in it- a 3 person team even at lvl 10 will wreck it if the players are half competent.
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Half-competence can apparently overcome the purple patch. I'll write that one down.
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*makes a note to lose half my competance if it makes me this good*
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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You still have the issue of blue side constant buyers being fine with their prices and just eating red side's supply for a tasty snack before business as usual.
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... which was what I was saying. He thinks it'll go *down.*
I have no faith that people will be happy in making less INF than they did before.
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You're acting like people will have a choice. In a merged market, hero players will be competing with villain players as both buyers and sellers. Let's just say for a second that you're right and villain players now have to pay hero prices for things like salvage.
Why exactly would that be a bad thing? Please note that I don't agree that would be the result, but let's go with it for now.
Those luck charms and other salvage that go for good amounts hero side, make the lowbie hero game a joy. Hero players, JUST BY PLAYING THE GAME, can wind up with millions that make the early levels more reasonable.
What you've just done is provide that earning potential to red side players. You've increased earnings for red players, while providing them access to a much larger supply with which to spend their new gains.
What's the problem?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.
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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.
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It's your own fault for not searching and reading the previous threads on this topic. It has been explained many times in the past. Do your homework.
/unsigned for all the reasons posted in past threads.
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Let me rephrase this then. I have read and posted in most of the threads in question. As you should well know if you have read any of them. I have yet to hear a valid reason beyond "I can't make as much profit flipping".
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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until supply(drop rates) are increased, this is not a feasable thing. it is already hard enough to get what you want on either side and if you paid attentoin to what is available on both sides you would see that they are pretty much a mirror of each other. and with red side having the lower population, it would become even more unreasonable to get anything red side.
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One of the major issues is availability of recipes for villains. Even recipes that should be readily available are not because demand exceeds supply. And I'm not talking about just pet recipes.
On the other side of that same coin, there are way too many recipes heroside that are just vendor trash. Ironically some of those recipes (e.g. Gaze of the Basilisk) are worth millions to villains.
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maybe to make it a little easier for you to understand: both sides are independant from each other. just as your toons are independant from one another. the blue side doesnt need the red side to help with missions(unless its the stupid v-day event) and vise versa. not to mention that things cannot be traded between the factions.
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In citing the separation between heroes and villians as being the reason to keep the markets separate you are putting the cart before the horse. The reason you can't give an awaken to your fallen teammate from the opposite faction is because the markets aren't merged, not the other way around.
However, it may help YOUR understanding to realize that City of Heroes and City of Villains are, per an official NC Soft news release, one game.
So make them one game already.
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there are enough why not reasons. because they dont fit your need as a reason why not, they do fit others.
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Thanks for the ad hominem, but you're wrong. I don't currently use the markets much, I barter with people outside it for what I need, or save merits, or occasionally sell off my excess.
Frankly, until the markets are merged they don't exist to me. I can earn merits and have fun doing so, then purchase what I need.
Part of the reason for the current dearth of some recipes on the market is low usage. If the markets were merged more people would use them, which would increase supply, which would mean that more people would use them. It's a numbers game plain and simple. The more people in the market the more chance there is to get the items you want on the market. Merging the markets is the simplest way to get more people into one market.
And really people, endlessly going "You should know why this is a bad idea already" is an invalid argument. Bring out your best, I'll tear them down again because there isn't a SINGLE valid reason NOT to merge the markets.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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Adding more demand without adding proportionately more supply won't make anything better...
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How can adding the other half of the game add more demand WITHOUT adding more supply? You obviously haven't thought this through. Read my previous posts in this thread where I address your issue.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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And before anyone throws supply and demand at me - when there's a 2:1 ratio of supply TO demand, in theory, prices should drop, correct? Too much supply for the demand.
With (heroside) 6500+ people bidding on 700 (roughly) Alchemical Silvers, I understand them going for 50k (last five sales.) or 3000 people bidding on 75 Ancient Artifacts - yes, that's going to be somewhat spendy, too. Or the infamous luck charm, 7000 some bidding, 1300 for sale - pricy.
Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)
Brass doesn't even follow the "Low supply equals overly high price." 1200 bidding, just over 200 for sale. Nearly 6:1, and it's "only" 500-1000, with a 5000 at the bottom there.
You REALLY think prices would deflate?
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The problem here is flippers, Bill. They artificially increase the demand and artificially inflate prices, driving real customers from the market. Having a larger population in the market reduces the impact that flippers can have on the market. If there's so much supply that the flippers can NOT buy up all the low priced items they want to flip they'll have to get used to lower profits.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.
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Well,
You know what they say about repeatedly doing the same thing over and over,
and yet expecting a different result. . .
.
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Did we not already do the flipping experiment where someone showed they could buy and sell and control price.
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No idea. I don't generally follow them.