No, it's not overdue. Do not merge the markets. Please stop trying to post this again and again. It's not going to happen so just accept it.
I play villains as well as heroes and I really enjoy having the separation. The only time I entertain heroes is when I'm throwing them to the ground at my feet. I don't need their money.
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This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.
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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.
/unsigned (again; still)
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
/absolutely not, unsigned. leave the markets as is.
i can only imagine how much the prices will inflate if this happens. reasoning behind this thought: everyone seems to think that there is way to much infl/inf floating around. this is not the case. while there are a few people who have billions that does not reflect on everyone else playing the game. especially the ones who can only play for a couple hrs a week.
<QR>
It's this time again?
Adding more demand without adding proportionately more supply won't make anything better except maybe Masterminds at low levels. For a while.
Haven't we been down this road enough times before to know that it's not a good idea? Even the majority of pro-merger folks have piped down about this, realizing that supply is sufficiently tanked on Heroes to no longer offer the appealing subsidy it once represented in their argument.
Subsidies don't work if the subsidizer is also broke.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
Just because all the people against this idea always post.
/Signed
DOEEET! 
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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.
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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
I like the markets the way they are.
I'm not going to point out why the people against this idea are mistaken in their assumptions. I'm also not going to point out the obvious problems normally associated with this idea.
Instead, just a simple IBTL +1, since spamming the same idea is never a good idea.
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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.
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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.
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It's your own fault for not searching and reading the previous threads on this topic. It has been explained many times in the past. Do your homework.
/unsigned for all the reasons posted in past threads.
until supply(drop rates) are increased, this is not a feasable thing. it is already hard enough to get what you want on either side and if you paid attentoin to what is available on both sides you would see that they are pretty much a mirror of each other. and with red side having the lower population, it would become even more unreasonable to get anything red side.
maybe to make it a little easier for you to understand: both sides are independant from each other. just as your toons are independant from one another. the blue side doesnt need the red side to help with missions(unless its the stupid v-day event) and vise versa. not to mention that things cannot be traded between the factions.
there are enough why not reasons. because they dont fit your need as a reason why not, they do fit others.
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i can only imagine how much the prices will inflate if this happens. reasoning behind this thought: everyone seems to think that there is way to much infl/inf floating around. this is not the case. while there are a few people who have billions that does not reflect on everyone else playing the game. especially the ones who can only play for a couple hrs a week.
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There would be no general inflation from a market merger. Some products, like salvage, would almost certainly deflate. Some products would receive welcome inflation, like hero side pet recipes (although it would be negligible). For villains, almost all prices, in all categories would drop. For heroes, any inflationary effect would be small.
By what mechanism do you believe inflation would occur?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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until supply(drop rates) are increased, this is not a feasable thing. it is already hard enough to get what you want on either side and if you paid attentoin to what is available on both sides you would see that they are pretty much a mirror of each other. and with red side having the lower population, it would become even more unreasonable to get anything red side.
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Do you understand how truly ludicrous what you just wrote was? Red side would see an enormous increase in supply from having access to blue markets. However, with their lower population, they would not be able to bid up blue prices much at all.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Since you are aware that it has been suggested many times before, then you are obviously aware of the many reasons NOT to do it.
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I am completely unaware of ANY reason not to do this.
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It's your own fault for not searching and reading the previous threads on this topic. It has been explained many times in the past. Do your homework.
/unsigned for all the reasons posted in past threads.
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The reasons given in earlier posts against a market merger were given by people who do not understand business or economics. They were wrong each and every time. No one has explained to me how why they think general market theory would fail to produce the efficiencies that it always does when you increase trade.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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<QR>
It's this time again?
Adding more demand without adding proportionately more supply won't make anything better except maybe Masterminds at low levels. For a while.
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Umm... that's exactly what a market merget does. It interjects increased demand and supply at the same time.
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Haven't we been down this road enough times before to know that it's not a good idea? Even the majority of pro-merger folks have piped down about this, realizing that supply is sufficiently tanked on Heroes to no longer offer the appealing subsidy it once represented in their argument.
Subsidies don't work if the subsidizer is also broke.
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While I think this is fair for villains, I think many people don't understand the many benefits to heroes. Heroes gain access to the surplus of salvage villains create which will have a small, but visible effect on hero prices to the benefit of the player.
The reason that merging the markets isn't done is because it hurts the "gaming" aspect of the markets. Normally, I'm for the game, but I don't like to see supply hurt unnecessarily simply to maintain the ability of flippers to flip.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
/signed
Evil Geko is, of course, correct.
look, all your theory of economics classes from college taught you was theories. doesnt mean that is how it works. if you increase demand w/out increasing supply(if you look at the markets, they are basically mirror images of each other for supply/demand) prices do not go down, they go up. even if suplly goes up(which inthis case, supply for high demand items might jump a whooping 3%) the demand has increased by at least 2 fold causing prices to go up.
best example of this is dual builds. demand went up, supply stayed the same which caused an increase in prices. seeing as how the current overflow salvage/recipes is virtually the same both sides with some exceptions, you wouldnt be increasing supply at all. all you're doing is increasing demand.
and if you really look at the supply in the markets, it would be fair to say that about 15% or so of the population uses them. most likely reason: already high prices. for the casual gamer this is not a freindly place. the idea would be to just lower prices now to draw more people into the markets. could it be that you might make more money this way rather then merging the markets? just might be.
find a way to encourage more people to use the markets rather then scarring them away from them.
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i can only imagine how much the prices will inflate if this happens. reasoning behind this thought: everyone seems to think that there is way to much infl/inf floating around. this is not the case. while there are a few people who have billions that does not reflect on everyone else playing the game. especially the ones who can only play for a couple hrs a week.
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There would be no general inflation from a market merger. Some products, like salvage, would almost certainly deflate. Some products would receive welcome inflation, like hero side pet recipes (although it would be negligible). For villains, almost all prices, in all categories would drop. For heroes, any inflationary effect would be small.
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In theory, perhaps.
Redside would most *certainly* see inflation. Barring pet recipes (more in demand redside,) they use the same sets - and the same salvage.
And before anyone throws supply and demand at me - when there's a 2:1 ratio of supply TO demand, in theory, prices should drop, correct? Too much supply for the demand.
With (heroside) 6500+ people bidding on 700 (roughly) Alchemical Silvers, I understand them going for 50k (last five sales.) or 3000 people bidding on 75 Ancient Artifacts - yes, that's going to be somewhat spendy, too. Or the infamous luck charm, 7000 some bidding, 1300 for sale - pricy.
Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)
Brass doesn't even follow the "Low supply equals overly high price." 1200 bidding, just over 200 for sale. Nearly 6:1, and it's "only" 500-1000, with a 5000 at the bottom there.
You REALLY think prices would deflate?
Redside, Alchemical Silver, just barely cheaper @40k, and still a 3:1 or better demand. That won't go down.
Ancient Artifact? The 592 for sale at 500 get bought up. Some use them. I'd *bet* a good number of them, though, get flipped and sold for more. Barely makes a dent (3000 people bidding on 75, remember.)
3 to 1 on luck charms (roughly, demand:supply) at 40-50k. That won't go down or come close to meeting demand.
Ancient bones - almost even (700 for 800 bids.) Those bids are obviously low, as the last five show 1000k. Heroside gets some of its demand filled, doesn't help villainside -what do you think will happen to the price of future ancient bones? The ones for sale blueside, with that disparity, I *highly* doubt are under 1000 - so villain demand isn't met.
Circuit boards (didn't save the hero numbers) might be filled, as there are *zero* bids, and 500-some for sale at about 2000... what do you think happens to price after that hits?
Brass gets even more of a glut with zero bids for 500+ supply.
That's just picking and choosing stuff I've had to look for recently.
"Prices would deflate," simply, smells like bovine leavings to me.
Blueside has more *farms,* it seems, generating INF, driving higher prices for in-demand items. Redside doesn't - I rarely hear of a TV farm, didn't even pre-family nerf. Prices would go *higher* than the tolerance Redside would have.
Essentially, you'd take the already on life support redside market and put a bullet through its head. Meanwhile, the people looking for things will just *ignore* the higher market prices in favor of merits and tickets, since people won't want to take the INF hit to delist the stuff they have sitting there. (Barring those who have been screwing around with it since issue 9.)
Prices may go down *relatively* on blueside, slightly. Redside? Forget it.
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look, all your theory of economics classes from college taught you was theories. doesnt mean that is how it works. if you increase demand w/out increasing supply(if you look at the markets, they are basically mirror images of each other for supply/demand) prices do not go down, they go up. even if suplly goes up(which inthis case, supply for high demand items might jump a whooping 3%) the demand has increased by at least 2 fold causing prices to go up.
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What are you talking about? If you merge the markets, demand and supply go up proportionally. Demand and Supply are based on relative population. The market would grow. Both demand and supply.
Seriously, what makes you believe that only one side of the ledger changes?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
^ points to bills post. that is the clearest explanation that can be made.
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i can only imagine how much the prices will inflate if this happens. reasoning behind this thought: everyone seems to think that there is way to much infl/inf floating around. this is not the case. while there are a few people who have billions that does not reflect on everyone else playing the game. especially the ones who can only play for a couple hrs a week.
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There would be no general inflation from a market merger. Some products, like salvage, would almost certainly deflate. Some products would receive welcome inflation, like hero side pet recipes (although it would be negligible). For villains, almost all prices, in all categories would drop. For heroes, any inflationary effect would be small.
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In theory, perhaps.
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And in practice, but OK.
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Redside would most *certainly* see inflation. Barring pet recipes (more in demand redside,) they use the same sets - and the same salvage.
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How? Just because everyone uses the same sets, you somehow think prices would rise?
Prices would fall because:
1) Flipping DEPENDS on a smaller market. Manipulation is much harder when you can't control a product's supply. On red side, it is easier to make inf as a marketeer than blue side because of this. Add in the garguatuan supply blueside and many tricks go away.
2) Very high demand items are more expensive or non-existent redside. Supply would go up, drifting prices between blue side and red side to the equillibrium point. Interestingly enough that point is not midway between blue side (cheaper) and red side. It's closer to blue side because blues population is larger.
3) Trade raises the standard of living on both sides. Both sides would benefit from what the other makes too much of. Red side would be able to sell salvage for a more meaningful prices (i.e. not vendor trash), blue side would be able to move pet recipes and such. You don't have to believe me. Just study trade, study business.
4) A larger market brings supply stability. A stable supply, even of an expensive product mitigates against price swings because people are more willing to bid for a reasonable price. Right now on red side, supply is so low that some people are willing to pay more just to be able to secure any product that comes on the market. That pressure lessens when there is ample supply.
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And before anyone throws supply and demand at me - when there's a 2:1 ratio of supply TO demand, in theory, prices should drop, correct? Too much supply for the demand.
With (heroside) 6500+ people bidding on 700 (roughly) Alchemical Silvers, I understand them going for 50k (last five sales.) or 3000 people bidding on 75 Ancient Artifacts - yes, that's going to be somewhat spendy, too. Or the infamous luck charm, 7000 some bidding, 1300 for sale - pricy.
Ancient Bone. 680 bidding, 1689 for sale. 6-15k *each.* Better than 2:1 supply to demand. Shouldn't that be down near vendor level? Same with circuit boards (same ratio and 5-11k price range.)
Brass doesn't even follow the "Low supply equals overly high price." 1200 bidding, just over 200 for sale. Nearly 6:1, and it's "only" 500-1000, with a 5000 at the bottom there.
You REALLY think prices would deflate?
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Yeah I do, because I understand what "demand" means. If I put up a flipping bid of 10K for an Alchemical silver, that's not "demand". That's at best speculating. I'm hoping that I can catch people putting their stuff up for 5 inf or whatever at a time when there is no one willing to pay 50K. Then I'll resale for higher.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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^ points to bills post. that is the clearest explanation that can be made.
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Except he's dead wrong.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Just going to quote the bit that gives me the biggest chuckle.
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2) Very high demand items are more expensive or non-existent redside. Supply would go up, drifting prices between blue side and red side to the equillibrium point. Interestingly enough that point is not midway between blue side (cheaper) and red side. It's closer to blue side because blues population is larger.
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Supply would *not* go up. You have the same supply that existed on both sides - merged. The same demand that existed on both sides - merged.
Barring raising drop rates, *Supply would not go up on its own.* You couldn't even say "redside" or "blueside" there would be... because there would be no *side.*
You have 100 people blueside, with 50 items for sale.
You have 30 bids redside, with ten items for sale.
Total? 130 people bidding, 60 items.
Merge the markets. What do you have?
... 130 people bidding, 60 items.
Yes, each side would see more *relative to what they did before.* But they would also be competing against more people.
The only way supply is going to increase is (a) higher subscriptions - which also will lead to higher demand on the markets, or (b) the devs taking action, either seeding the market or increasing drop rates.
(And meanwhile, that person with, say, a 100k bid for a Mu vestment Redside - making up numbers here - STILL isn't going to get it, because blueside the low bid is 300k... where do you think the 150k Redside vestments would go?)
OK, some of the others...
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1) Flipping DEPENDS on a smaller market. Manipulation is much harder when you can't control a product's supply. On red side, it is easier to make inf as a marketeer than blue side because of this. Add in the garguatuan supply blueside and many tricks go away.
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Riiight. Because all the "Goes back to flipping X" comments are never from people doign it blueside. mmkay.
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4) A larger market brings supply stability. A stable supply, even of an expensive product mitigates against price swings because people are more willing to bid for a reasonable price. Right now on red side, supply is so low that some people are willing to pay more just to be able to secure any product that comes on the market. That pressure lessens when there is ample supply.
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Riiiiiiiight. That's why redside prices on those items were the same or *lower* than blueside. Oh... wait...
You *cannot* just take real world economics and slap them into a game. Yes, some of it will work. But if there's demand for a piece - say, Dellwaple Computers makes this ZOMG Gotta have laptop - they can ramp up production to meet it. Since they're buying more pieces from their suppliers, they - and likely their suppliers - can get the materials cheaper.
I don't see "Luck Charms, Inc" in game ramping up production. There is no control over production of salvage. There's the random drop you get - yes, you can *try* to sway it by fighting certain mobs to up your chances, but you may well just get 20 Spirit Thorns instead. You can't place an order for specific salvage, buy a lot of 10 for 100k, 50 for 85k each, 100+ for 60k each. (I'm not talking about bidding, I'm talking about bulk discounts.) They won't talk to Magic Gems and Mystic Metals for a bigger batch for your order to cut down production costs.
"Luck" is not a stable market supply.
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3) Trade raises the standard of living on both sides. Both sides would benefit from what the other makes too much of. Red side would be able to sell salvage for a more meaningful prices (i.e. not vendor trash), blue side would be able to move pet recipes and such. You don't have to believe me. Just study trade, study business.
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Redside: "Great, I just sold the widget for 1000 instead of 700! Now let's look at these recipes... holy crud, they're three times what they used to be thanks to blueside historic prices."
Of course, those would be the recipes that everyone sharing the same sets would want...
*waits for whoever that bonehead in the market forum was to come in and tell me that placing those recipes up for 6 inf is evil because it guts supply... even though they haven't moved in weeks.*
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Yeah I do, because I understand what "demand" means. If I put up a flipping bid of 10K for an Alchemical silver, that's not "demand". That's at best speculating. I'm hoping that I can catch people putting their stuff up for 5 inf or whatever at a time when there is no one willing to pay 50K. Then I'll resale for higher.
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... so even more people will get tired of the market and get their friends and SG mates to share the salvage/recipes/etc among themselves, or put the items in storage... Oh, wait, that's one of the other "evil" things the rest of the playerbase does. Wonder why... hmmm....
How? Just because everyone uses the same sets, we know prices would rise.
fixt for errors. it is because everyone uses the same stuff that prices would rise. you dont pay attention to the markets very well do you geko. you really cant see how there would be a lack of supply and a growth in demand? or higher prices because of more demand? seriously, stop thinking in dollar figures and think about the casual gamer. and then think about why only about 15% of the population of both games use the markets. it gets harder to make money when the only people using the markets are the "flippers".
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How? Just because everyone uses the same sets, we know prices would rise.
fixt for errors. it is because everyone uses the same stuff that prices would rise. [u]you dont pay attention to the markets very well do you geko. [u]you really cant see how there would be a lack of supply and a growth in demand? or higher prices because of more demand? seriously, stop thinking in dollar figures and think about the casual gamer. and then think about why only about 15% of the population of both games use the markets. it gets harder to make money when the only people using the markets are the "flippers".
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No. You're right. My main only has money and enhancers worth well over a billion inf.
I was waiting for the casual gamer thing to come out. The flippers paradise we have redside is what hurts casual gamers. Why you and Bill think that economic theory that has proven itself for 200 years suddenly goes out the window when applied to this situation is beyond me.
It's almost time for me to head out for the weekend so I'll leave you to your opinion. Bill, as always, fun tussling with you. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This idea has been suggested many times before, and it's a good idea. It solves the biggest problems with the market and it is LONG overdue.
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.