WarTroller Single Target Damage Testing Videos
By
Austerity,
Posted on: 2009-02-24 08:15 in Controllers
So, remember when I said that Pooman did really good ST damage? 
However, I must say I'm completely shocked at Illusion's poor showing. I'm equally surprised by Gravity's good showing. It isn't as good as it probably should be, considering the set's piss poor control but still...
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Post Deleted by Moderator_08
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It's him trying to boss you around when he tries to boss you around.
When he corrects what you have said, whether his correction is right or wrong, it's his belief that he is fighting against ignorance.
When he says that Frosty would do more damage IF XXX, he is not telling you that you need to prefer Frosty if he got changed by XXX. Just that Frosty would do more damage. Given that the thread is about damage done by Controller primaries, which include Frosty, I find his comments about the DPS done by pets to be quite relevant to the thread, rather than some sort of attempt to make you follow and worship him.
In other words: lighten up. He disagreed with you. He also said that you're ignorant if you believe what you stated, that Frosty is better due to cycling two attacks. You then got angry at being called ignorant, and argued that you cannot be called ignorant on public boards.
However, you most certainly CAN be called ignorant. There are two possibilities:
You ARE ignorant. What, are you then going to report someone for correcting your ignorance?
You are NOT ignorant. The proper response at this point is to demonstrate that you know what you're talking about, not to say "Hey, you can't call me that!".
Defend yourself against a claim of ignorance, by showing that the claim is false, and thus prove your accuser to be ignorant himself.
But defending by saying "you cannot say that" is a weak defense, because it could just as easily be used by anyone, however ignorant they might be. Since a total ignoramus could come up and say lots and lots of ignorant things, get called on it, and then say "You cannot call me ignorant, I'm reporting it", it is a weak defense.
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P.S. Rise of the earth/storm AV solo'ers?
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Maybe, I but I haven't been able to do it. The Smashing resists that so many AVs have make it difficult, at best.
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P.S. Rise of the earth/storm AV solo'ers?
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Maybe, I but I haven't been able to do it. The Smashing resists that so many AVs have make it difficult, at best.
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good point. Might be able to tag some of them, but the list might be so short it wouldn't be worthwhile for the time/effort of specializing the build.
Would make for an interesting post though in the troller forums.
Yup, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. My Earth/Storm/Stone has enough survivability to stand up to most AVs and I've got the theoretical damage to bring them down. I just can't do it in any reasonable length of time. ten minutes to get Dominatrix down to 90% health is just not worth it...
she's a dirty ****, I have pictures to prove it
I still say that Illusion is getting a bum rap, since this list does not take into account Illusion's spectral damage. It actually does a lot more damage against minions and Lts.
Also, a lot of foes resist the damage types done by other controllers, especially smashing damage. There are a few foes who also resist Psi damage, too, and those are hard for Illusionists and Mind Controllers. But Illusion would be listed higher if the test was different.
Still, the list is interesting.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Thread request to be saved granted.
Ex
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Pre-32 Times, No Hasten
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Illusion w/PA_______________56s
Illusion w/out PA____________2:44s
Pre 32 Times, With Hasten
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Illusion w/PA_______________47s
Illusion w/out PA____________1:33s
32 Times, No Hasten
-----------------------
Illusion w/PA_______________49s
Illusion w/out PA____________1:42s
32 Times, With Hasten
--------------------------
Illusion w/PA_______________45s
Illusion w/out PA____________1:06s
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Since i'm very new; can anyone in the know explain to me why Phantasm seems to have made such a minor impact in times?
Phanty isn't really a high ST damage pet. It's more of an AoE/Support type pet.
However, Casper DOES spawn an immortal clone (lasts 45sec or until target dies IIRC) that also contributes damage (and can tank while PA is down if played right), so I wonder if that's being factored in.
Assuming it IS being accounted for, then the results are especially surprising to me given what my Ill/Rad does to hard targets.
Of course this is a primary-only comparison, but it would be interesting to see if a given debuff set (I exclude buffs due to inherent bias against Illusion's PA) has widely differing effects on the performance of the pets (since aside from Fire they will be the majority of damage pre-epics), since it is well known that Ill/Rad is (arguably) supreme against higher-order targets such as EB/AVs (I exclude GMs since it takes an INSANELY tweaked-out build to solo those these days).
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Phanty isn't really a high ST damage pet. It's more of an AoE/Support type pet.
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Well, I don't know that I would agree with this. I don't see how you could call Phantasm a "support pet" when Phantasm is a flying energy blaster with a decoy. Phanty alone has two attacks, a single target blast for 40 damage, 4 Sec Recharge, and a cone Torrent, 62 damage with an 8 Sec Recharge. Then the decoy has two attacks that do 58 points of spectral damage, but that damage heals back after 5 seconds. The decoy lasts for 30 seconds, but is re-cast immediately if the target did not die. (Decoy Recharge time is 30 sec.)
I don't see how Phantasm doesn't add more damage either. Phantasm has generally been considered to be one of the higher damage pets, generally second to the Fire Imps. The upgrade to Rocky might have moved Phanty to 3, but I think he still does more damage than Jack, Twoey (Audrey II) and Singy. Now, I could see how Singularity might be considered a "support pet," but not Phantasm.
Of course, if you keep an eye on the Spectral damage and take advantage of it by killing the foe hit by Spectral Damage quickly, then the addition of Phanty's decoy does even more damage.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Not having looked closely at all, but does Ill suffer from the problem that some MM's do where they won't attack a target that is being kb'd? If they are waiting for the target to stand back up before attacking that could explain a lot.
At the very least you end up with PA chasing around the target that phant has kb'd?
My ill is /ta and I often entagle things for containment on blind and SW, so kb isn't really an issue with Phant. I was suprised at Ill's performace as well because of what I've experienced with my ill/ta and because of the legendary status of ill vs hard targets.
Hard targets don't get knocked around though and much of that reputation is garnered because of PA giving the user invincible status.
Just a thought.
I think some problems lie with the fact that raw numbers and experiences don't always mesh. Also, attack chains differ with what is used here and what someone else might do against a single target.
Just like some people play one way and think "Earth Sucks" and use flashfire when attacking single targets with a fire controller. That won't mean the next person will have the same experience.
The numbers are just that. Just watching these videos there are things that I would have done differently, but that is not to say the numbers are not good to look at sometimes. I'm merely saying I would take the word of someone who has played Illusion with different secondaries (like Local_Man for example) when trying to find out how a set performs before trusting numbers in a vacuum.
Each set will perform differently in different hands and with different secondaries. It should not be a poor reflection on any primary set, especially if you have experience that doesn't correspond with the numbers.
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Assuming it IS being accounted for, then the results are especially surprising to me given what my Ill/Rad does to hard targets.
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Hard targets often have higher res to smash thus hurting earth and grav a lot. And hard targets ofteh wtfpwn imps quickly hurting fire. Ill on the other hand has indestructible PA.
Additionally for grav to perform well it needs to constantly attack, whereas sets that generate more damage from their pets can work secondary powers in without negatively impacting damage output nearly as much before factoring in the benefits of those buff/debuffs.
While I did think ill would kill a bit faster w/ PA it isn't far from what is expected. The big surprise was earth, with pooman bringing down the house. While he isn't quite as indestructible as PA he is very durable and buffable and has a taunt factor similar to PA. He may not be pretty, but he is impressive.
Biggest disappointment was ice for me, but Jack really isn't working like he should. Working Jack may very well put ice into second place.
Really great test, I'm very glad Magicj took the time.
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
I pretty much settled with the same conclusion a lot of people did already: this isn't so much a Jack vrs Pooman thread because it's about cycling all the powers for single target defeat times. That Earth carried a heavy DEF debuff doubtless influenced the test more, because these are purple bosses. Even if Jack did a little better damage, Jack's time would be worse because of that.
The overall defeat times on this test are also somewhat unrealistic due to attack chain optimization being largely minimalized, and also that no primary power set exists in a vacuum without a secondary effect, power pools, invention enhancements, ect. It's a good general reference, though.
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since it is well known that Ill/Rad is (arguably) supreme against higher-order targets such as EB/AVs
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I don't think this argument is worth as much as it sounds. Ill/Rad works well vs AVs because PA grabs aggro and is unkillable and Rad does just enough debuffing to let the troller whittle down the AV. Ill/Rad kills AVs, but it kills them slowly.
Someone posts their Ill/Rad soloed Lusca in four hours and everyone remembers Ill/Rad soloed Lusca. No one remembers it took four hours to do it.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
That's my assessment of Illusion as well. Maybe it's because mine is Ill/Therm but I haven't seen a whole lot of the Ill uberness.
I was fighting a Family boss and my Poo man and Singy were going at it! I was curious so I made sure my dom kept the boss guy held. To my amazement Singy was beating the crap out of Pooman and managed to immob me a few times. He had JUST about a few points higher than Animate Stone before I killed off the boss guy.
I started off with Singy being my first Pet and I rem how messed up pooman was before the change. Now he's a powerhouse! To be able to get Singy down that low! Amazing! I still have to say no one can save you like singy he's the ultimate tank...well he not high damaging but he can EASILY take an ambush or two w/o me even looking at his health bar.
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
did you count how many times he missed with ice control? How many times Jack missed? What would the kill speed have been otherwise?
I did, because I'm not about to PM Castle and implicate a potential bug without first dotting my i's and crossing my t's.
It isn't about Jack vs Pooman in the least, he is just cited as an example of the ai glitch that Jack is suffering from because he was specifically reworked to overcome it.
Finally, Magicj's test wasn't about "builds" I'm not sure how many more times that needs to be said. We all know that some sets exhibit strong synergy and we all know that a purpled out toon will out perform a SO'd one. What he did was very fair: identical (or very close) slotting and equal amounts of recharge (none and moderate) and no secondary.
Maybe one more test with geas+hasten would satisfy people so they could see roughly how a heavily IO'd toon would perform, but I doubt you'd see any massive shifts because you can only summon one set of pets and you can only attack as fast as your animations allow.
Anywho, I've always felt that the family singy was more potent damage-wise than mine when I had a grav/rad, but that was some time ago. Very survivable pet though and pretty.
NPC generated singys are more than likely, via "casual observation statistics", being skewed by the fact that they're higher level than you, while your singy is at your level more often than not facing higher level enemies than she is.
In essence, you're facing NPCs you can get good exp from, so they're above you, which lends their pets to naturally deal more damage than your pet due to level difference.
When I solo sweep in PI for no reason other than to watch oil slick kill things, singy does respectable damage to the fake nems the oil slick is barely scratching. She's slotted for as much damage as she can take, though. Way beyond what it should be really, ED is ruining her 
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I don't see how Phantasm doesn't add more damage either. Phantasm has generally been considered to be one of the higher damage pets, generally second to the Fire Imps. The upgrade to Rocky might have moved Phanty to 3, but I think he still does more damage than Jack, Twoey (Audrey II) and Singy. Now, I could see how Singularity might be considered a "support pet," but not Phantasm.
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Phantasm does knockback, not knockdown. And its single-target blast has longer range than its AoE.
So what happens is that upon a single target with no wall behind it, it will eventually knock the mob back out of its Energy Torrent range, and since it's still in range for its Blast, it will NOT move up closer in order to use ET.
Now, if it knocks the mob completely out of its range, it WILL move up... but usually only far enough to fire Blast again, not enough to use ET.
ET is not a good long-term DPS power upon a single target unless that target is an AV or has a wall behind it, so that it can keep using ET regularly.
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I don't think this argument is worth as much as it sounds. Ill/Rad works well vs AVs because PA grabs aggro and is unkillable and Rad does just enough debuffing to let the troller whittle down the AV. Ill/Rad kills AVs, but it kills them slowly.
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Well, there are other reasons. Just look at your resulting DPS values, and consider the following:
1: Illusion will increase the most with a veteran or APP blast, since it only cycles 2 ranged attacks, and both are fast allowing for the use of other powers in the chain. Earth also fires only 2 powers, but they activate more slowly. Gravity and Mind use more powers from the primary.
2: Earth and Grav both will lose a lot of damage vs AVs since AVs consistently have Smash/Lethal resists. Most will not have Psy resists, so Illusion will easily push past Gravity since they are close already, and probably past Earth.
So that leaves Illusion where I expected it, in 2nd place behind Fire. As others mentioned at times, Fire is the fastest AV-killing primary, it's just a matter of how to keep your pets alive so they can do damage. So Illusion is considered the best AV-killing since it has no problems keeping its pets alive, but I doubt if anyone will disagree that a Fire/FF, range-Def-capped, and using Challenge, will defeat an AV faster than Ill/FF in the same situation or using perma-PA.
So that's why Illusion is so good vs AVs: 2nd best damage after you add in APPs and Smashing resists, and the set that is 1st in damage has a real problem keeping its pets alive vs AVs.
A quick look at my CoH mob spreadsheet shows 41 AVs/Heroes resistant to Smashing, with an average resistance of ~33.537% and 37 AVs/Heroes resistant to Psionic, with an average resistance of 37.703%.
While admittedly my spreadsheet IS missing info on a few AVs/Heroes, it DOES list the vast majority of them.
From this I personally take it that while Yes, there may be a few more AVs/Heroes resistant to Smashing, there are almost as many with Psi resist, and they tend to be slightly more resistant to Psionic.
Ultimately I don't think resistance is enough a factor between the two damage types to push Illusion's damage above Gravity/Earth.
It really does look like it's JUST the indestructible pets.
EDIT: To mention that yeah, Gravity will likely lose a lot of ground once APPs are factored in. Basically any grav controller will/would drop propel for the faster APP attack (so they have time for secondary powers) where Illusion will just be Adding the dps of the APP attack where gaps in their attack chains already exist for it.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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plant and grav w/ propel seem to get faster w/o hasten, that is wierd and might be worth looking at why.
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In both cases I think it was because of the pet. With Grav, I think I was a bit too far away for Singy to attack at the beginning of the fight. With Plant, it's just the dumb Fly Trap acting up.
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Can you post once more ranking all of the sets for each catagory?
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Sure.
Pre-32 Times, No Hasten
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Illusion w/PA_______________56s
Mind______________________59s
Gravity w/Propel____________1:06s
Fire_______________________1:13s
Plant______________________1:13s
Earth______________________1:39s
Gravity w/out Propel_________1:40s
Ice_______________________1:49s
Illusion w/out PA____________2:44s
Pre 32 Times, With Hasten
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Mind______________________46s
Illusion w/PA_______________47s
Gravity w/Propel____________58s
Gravity w/out Propel_________1:04s
Fire_______________________1:04s
Plant______________________1:10s
Ice_______________________1:22s
Earth_____________________1:32s
Illusion w/out PA____________1:33s
32 Times, No Hasten
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Fire_______________________34s
Gravity w/Propel____________46s
Illusion w/PA_______________49s
Earth_____________________49s
Gravity w/out Propel_________55s
Ice_______________________58s
Mind______________________1:13s
Illusion w/out PA____________1:42s
32 Times, With Hasten
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Fire_______________________30s
Earth______________________38s
Gravity w/Propel____________44s
Illusion w/PA_______________45s
Mind______________________46s
Ice_______________________47s
Gravity w/out Propel_________1:00
Illusion w/out PA____________1:06s
Plant______________________1:13s
Pre-32 DPS, No Hasten
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Illusion w/PA_______________24.73 DPS
Mind______________________23.47 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________20.98 DPS
Fire______________________18.97 DPS
Plant_____________________18.97 DPS
Earth_____________________13.99 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel________13.85 DPS
Ice_______________________12.71 DPS
Illusion w/out PA____________8.45 DPS
Pre-32 DPS, With Hasten
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Mind______________________30.11 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________29.47 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________23.88 DPS
Fire_______________________21.64 DPS
Plant______________________19.79 DPS
Ice_______________________16.89 DPS
Earth_____________________15.05 DPS
Illusion w/out PA____________14.89 DPS
32 DPS, No Hasten
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Fire_______________________51.62 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________38.15 DPS
Earth_____________________35.82 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________35.82 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel_________31.91 DPS
Ice_______________________30.26 DPS
Plant______________________29.25 DPS
Mind______________________24.04 DPS
Illusion w/out PA____________17.21 DPS
32 DPS, With Hasten
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Fire_______________________58.50 DPS
Earth______________________46.18 DPS
Gravity w/Propel____________39.89 DPS
Illusion w/PA_______________39.00 DPS
Mind______________________38.15 DPS
Ice_______________________37.34 DPS
Gravity w/out Propel_________29.25 DPS
Illusion w/out PA____________26.59 DPS
Plant______________________24.04 DPS
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage