WarTroller Single Target Damage Testing Videos
By
Austerity,
Posted on: 2009-02-24 08:15 in Controllers
All I can say is I am very shocked at mind control more than anything else. Just exactly how did you have each of the attacks you used slotted?
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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All I can say is I am very shocked at mind control more than anything else. Just exactly how did you have each of the attacks you used slotted?
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I'll be posting the builds along with new standardized tests shortly.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread, but the time for Illusion without PA bothers me . . . and I think I figured out why.
Spectral Wounds has huge burst damage, but the spectral damage heals back after a few seconds. On a boss, you might as well not have the spectral damage in the first place, since there is always plenty of time to heal back.
However, on a minion, one shot of Blind-SW will often finish off a minion BECAUSE HE DIES BEFORE THE SPECTRAL DAMAGE HEALS BACK. The net effect is that Illusion actually does a lot more damage than this test would suggest, but only if he is able to kill off the foe quickly enough to avoid the heal back. An Illusion controller will therefore kill off minions quickly, probably more quickly than other controllers, but will take longer on higher HP foes.
In playing an Illusionist, this is important to understand. Why? Well, when PA is out, they will randomly attack whatever foes are around. If you kill off the minions, which the illusionist can do quickly, the PA are more likely to focus their damage on the higher HP foes, helping you kill much faster.
This is an example of where the test may not be taking into consideration the unique properties of a particular powerset.
Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.
[/ QUOTE ] I dont think so, most controller attacks get inherrent tohit to them and by the time you are in the 20's you would have at least 2 SO's in each attack. So you are good up to +3s for the most part.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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However, on a minion, one shot of Blind-SW will often finish off a minion BECAUSE HE DIES BEFORE THE SPECTRAL DAMAGE HEALS BACK. The net effect is that Illusion actually does a lot more damage than this test would suggest, but only if he is able to kill off the foe quickly enough to avoid the heal back. An Illusion controller will therefore kill off minions quickly, probably more quickly than other controllers, but will take longer on higher HP foes.
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This and one more thing: the spectral portion of the attack isn't doubled by containment. So what you end up with is twice that spectral portion of damage doesn't really apply. Pretty much the only function of the spectral damage is to push a final blow.
You know, I'm thinking to myself this whole concept of a "Wartroller" is perhaps a bit delusional. Yes, you can tweak a Controller to do decent damage, especially with a supporting secondary set (e.g. Kinetics). But, dude, if you want to Blast then roll a Blaster. Wartrolling is a trap.
Of course, this is a trap I've found myself in, and am still well ensnared in. When I roll Blaster, you know I'm trying to be a Controller. ;P The appeal of having a character who is awesome at offense and defense while not being as one-dimensional as a Scrapper is strong. If only Masterminds could roll blue side.
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Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.
[/ QUOTE ] I dont think so, most controller attacks get inherrent tohit to them and by the time you are in the 20's you would have at least 2 SO's in each attack. So you are good up to +3s for the most part.
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Well, Controllers generally get a 10% accuracy bonus on their single target hold. But an Earth Controller will have a better chance to hit more often, once he has hit once due to the 20% Defense Debuff in each of his attacks. That means that he may have more success against higher level foes, even higher than +3. It probably would not be enough to offset his lower damage, but it would speed up his ability to take down higher level foes.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Here's another thought -- Earth Control will probably have more success against higher level foes than other controllers due to its -Defense, even if its damage is lower.
[/ QUOTE ] I dont think so, most controller attacks get inherrent tohit to them and by the time you are in the 20's you would have at least 2 SO's in each attack. So you are good up to +3s for the most part.
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Well, Controllers generally get a 10% accuracy bonus on their single target hold. But an Earth Controller will have a better chance to hit more often, once he has hit once due to the 20% Defense Debuff in each of his attacks. That means that he may have more success against higher level foes, even higher than +3. It probably would not be enough to offset his lower damage, but it would speed up his ability to take down higher level foes.
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah but when you are at 95% accuracy already the defense debuffs dont help at all is what I am saying.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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However, on a minion, one shot of Blind-SW will often finish off a minion BECAUSE HE DIES BEFORE THE SPECTRAL DAMAGE HEALS BACK. The net effect is that Illusion actually does a lot more damage than this test would suggest, but only if he is able to kill off the foe quickly enough to avoid the heal back. An Illusion controller will therefore kill off minions quickly, probably more quickly than other controllers, but will take longer on higher HP foes.
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This and one more thing: the spectral portion of the attack isn't doubled by containment. So what you end up with is twice that spectral portion of damage doesn't really apply. Pretty much the only function of the spectral damage is to push a final blow.
You know, I'm thinking to myself this whole concept of a "Wartroller" is perhaps a bit delusional. Yes, you can tweak a Controller to do decent damage, especially with a supporting secondary set (e.g. Kinetics). But, dude, if you want to Blast then roll a Blaster. Wartrolling is a trap.
Of course, this is a trap I've found myself in, and am still well ensnared in. When I roll Blaster, you know I'm trying to be a Controller. ;P The appeal of having a character who is awesome at offense and defense while not being as one-dimensional as a Scrapper is strong. If only Masterminds could roll blue side.
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Yep, I'm very aware that the spectral damage does not double. There have been lots of discussions/complaints about that on the boards. And I'm in the middle of working on an Ill/Rad guide where I discuss that very issue. but even without having the spectral damage doubled with containment, spectral damage still adds a substantial amount to the burst damage of an Illusion controller if you can defeat the foe before the heal-back. This is why I suggest that Illusion is much more effective as a Minion-killer than as a boss-killer.
The damage of the single target holds and immobilize powers of most controllers are pretty much the same. (Except Plant? I know the AoE gets extra damage, but I haven't checked the damage for the single target Immob.) Fire, Earth, Ice, Grav and Plant all have a single target immob, a single target hold, both of which do the same amount of Total Damage. Grav gets Propel and Lift as additional single target damage. Mind gets Mezmerize having the same damage as the Immob in other sets, plus it has Levitate for additional single target damage. Illusion get the same damage in the single target hold, and the same damage in Spectral Wounds as a single target immob, except for that spectral burst damage. With a different kind of test, Illusion might come out a heck of a lot higher . . . say, for instance, the number of minions that the controller can wipe out in a certain time. (I haven't tested it -- just speculating.)
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Something is wrong with Jack ( I don't have a high lvl ice troller to test myself) he isn't cycling his ranged attacks in melee (pooman does) and once his ice sword is out he never puts it away, so no freezing touch (just like pooman used to do once he pulled out the mallet) so he only uses freezing touch once and each ranged attack once and then the sword comes out and he never uses anything else again.
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Sounds like something right with Jack to me. By not wanting to cycle his ranged attack and keeping his sword out, he's not tempted to stay at range where he only does a fraction of as much damage. This was probably done deliberately by the developers to encourage melee behavior in Jack.
The lack of freezing touch is a little bit of a bummer, but hey, how often does a full-fledge controller really the pet throwing an occasional hold? I can tie up several spawns all by my lonesome.
That said, it is a little odd Earth is outperforming Ice in the tests. It must be Volcanic Gasses or Stalagmite being used or something. Jack's love of melee should be providing an edge.
[Ah, I see why. At one point during the test, the Boss kicked Jack away (about 3:10 - 3:15).]
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No you aren't understanding. Stoney does more damage than Jack right now because Jack is only using TWO attacks. he has 5 attacks that he is supposed to cycle in melee range. He is supposed to use his iceblasts in melee range just like stoney uses hurl in melee range.
jack is supposed to be a damage monster to offset the squishiness, he is clearly not wai in the video as he is outdamaged by pooman and pooman is pretty much indestructible.
*the few seconds he was blown back aren't what is important in this case.
jack is doing EXACTLY what pooman used to do before he was overhauled and given a new attack so he would work properly.
I can assure you it is not "right"
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I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread, but the time for Illusion without PA bothers me . . . and I think I figured out why.
Spectral Wounds has huge burst damage, but the spectral damage heals back after a few seconds. On a boss, you might as well not have the spectral damage in the first place, since there is always plenty of time to heal back.
However, on a minion, one shot of Blind-SW will often finish off a minion BECAUSE HE DIES BEFORE THE SPECTRAL DAMAGE HEALS BACK. The net effect is that Illusion actually does a lot more damage than this test would suggest, but only if he is able to kill off the foe quickly enough to avoid the heal back. An Illusion controller will therefore kill off minions quickly, probably more quickly than other controllers, but will take longer on higher HP foes.
In playing an Illusionist, this is important to understand. Why? Well, when PA is out, they will randomly attack whatever foes are around. If you kill off the minions, which the illusionist can do quickly, the PA are more likely to focus their damage on the higher HP foes, helping you kill much faster.
This is an example of where the test may not be taking into consideration the unique properties of a particular powerset.
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It is worth noting, but in this case the test is just straight up st damage vs a moderately high hp target (boss).
Generally an Ill will have PA up for most boss encounters, but maybe not, which is why it is appreciated to show w/ and w/o.
A test that depicted spawn to spawn performance might be ideal, but that will likely be a "build" test rather than just using a primary powerset. And in being a build test, would be open to even more debate than what is currently being done.
Also my experience with blind+spec wounds is that it does not two shot minions without significant boosting from a secondary. Not sure if that is what you are saying, or just that you will usually kill them off before the healback, which I can agree with.
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
Re: Frosty
Even with only two attacks cycling, I don't buy that Frosty is at a universal disadvantage. Throw a Boost Speed on him and those two attacks is all he'd have time for anyway. By only cycling his melee (most powerful attacks) Frosty is currently a Kineticist's perfect pet.
I'm not saying that's ideal, I can see how in the other secondaries throwing Speed Boost is not an option. In the long run, what we need is some way to customize our own pet's behavior. However, I doubt the developers will work any faster or slower on it based on anything you or I say.
The test is still a bit fudged because Frosty went flying. But, really, given the unpredictability of any pet's behavior, I suppose several seconds of deviation should be expected. So I suppose, considering all the tests were fudged, I can forgive that.
Re: Life, the universe, and everything City of Heroes related.
There's a lot more being overlooked than the pet behavior, really. There's a lot of attack chain optimization that could have been done here you won't see - throw in a few recharges or IO benefits in the right places, recall friend the pet to where you want it to be, and the scores completely change.
City of Heroes has a certain level of unpredictable and customization that invalidates the whole endeavor of trying to establish "Pre-32" and "Post-32" damage on a basic level. The videos are still very valuable to see how the different sets play out, at least. If there was a video like that for every power set, there'd be a whole lot of time saved on alts.
Ah, to heck with it, I just rolled Kinetics. Desire to be offensively and defensively exceptional: satisfied. I guess I can pretend to be original because I avoided Fire as a primary. There's also my favorite line of reasoning: sure, there's a lot of /Kin out there, but I play mine better than most. 
I can thank this thread for guiding me to give Gravity a try as my primary. It's mostly for wormhole, but it's been my experience that those bosses left after everything else fell are the biggest problem. I'm probably going to go without Propel and take Air Superiority instead. (Though, with a little tweaking, there may be no room in the chain for it.)
I think you are missing the entire point of magicj's testing tbh.
it isn't about factoring in a secondary, IO's or optimal set specific slotting. It is about slotting every primary with SO's and seeing how they do on their own in the damage department.
And no even with speed boost frosty would still do significantly more damage if he actually cycled his attacks. Unless you believe 50% recharge could get an attack with a 14+second cycle time and an attack with 6 second cycle time to fire off continuously without any massive gaps.
Jack's performance would be significantly better if he cycled his attacks regardless of secondary choice. Like over twice as much damage better. Not sure why someone wouldn't want that... Unless that person likes seeing pooman do more damaage than Jack while taunting and being practically unkillable?
As for the rest of your post. I apologize if you have assumed I'm upset, but you are the only one visibly getting bent out of shape. So perhaps taking your own advice of "mellowing out" would be adamant. I really don't care what the results of this test indicate one way or the other beyond satisfying curiousity, but I do care when powers are bugged; especially when the bug is resulting in sub-optimal performance.
Animate Stone: More damage, more sturdiness, more tauntiness.
Jack Frost: Less damage, glass jaw.
No amount of what's-your-secondary, how-are-your-IOs arguments is going to change that there's something wrong with the above equation.
Earth is pretty clearly the superior control set for general purposes, and the two sets have almost identical personal damage potential -- which is to say that both have crappy direct damage options, supposedly to make up for their so-called uber control.
So why should Earth also have the sturdier and more offensively powerful pet? Are ugly graphics a valid balancing metric?
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Maybe it's the possibility of slotting contagious confusion on Arctic Air.
Nah, we know Jack is bugged in that he's not using his attacks right. My point was only that a melee focus can be advantageous because he's not trying to fight at range or use ranged attacked and so that'd be better damage than a lot of pets. There's a lot of fights in which the poo-beast will stand off and chuck boulders for awhile, not to mention when the Fly Trap gets in a root loop, but Jack doesn't allow himself that option.
And that's just my opinion. I would prefer a melee-centric pet to one that gets stuck at range. Feel free to disagree, but don't tell me I'm misunderstanding the problem. I've used up my lifetime allocation of tolerating people telling me I'm misunderstanding something on this forum.
I'd like to say this video disproved Jack has a damage edge, but actually the tester decided to let jack get creamed to make a point and, in doing so, sabotaged it. An unbiased test does not operate out of the norm in order to make a power perform worse hoping the developers will buff it.
Guys, this is really not relevant to magicj's thread. If you think Jack is bugged, send Castle a PM. If you just want to argue about the design decisions involving Jack, i suggest you start a new thread.
Its been so long since I played trollers and doms, I should have noticed this alot sooner. I will do some testing on Jack and Poo-man. If I find anything wierd I will put it in the new thread if someone starts one.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
Jack being kb'd for 5 seconds wouldn't magically subtract 15-20 seconds from the kill speed so that it is faster than earth by the amount it is supposed to be .
Weatherby is correct though this is not relevant to the thread beyond it originally being noted that Jack was not WAI.
I've PM'd Castle regarding Jack failing to cycle his attacks properly.
Looking forward to the results from your other trollers Magicj.
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
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Jack being kb'd for 5 seconds wouldn't magically subtract 15-20 seconds from the kill speed so that it is faster than earth by the amount it is supposed to be .
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This whole Jack Frost versus Pooman can of worms is much bigger than these videos, which involve cycling a lot more than just pet on pet. For example, Stalagmites and Volcanic Gasses is involved - they don't seem like much damage, but it's something Ice didn't have in a single target attack. Earth had a -DEF effect, that's major, especially considering these are purple bosses we're fighting. Arctic Air is an AOE centric contributor, and these were single target tests. I'd wait on Castle's reply.
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
I can appreciate your liking of a melee centric pet. jack and pooman are identical in behavior up to a point. They both use their ranged attack(s) once and then close to melee. They then proceed to punchasize things in the face, but when Pooman has no melee attacks recharged he will use hurl from point blank range. Jack on the other hand will stand there and do nothing until ice sword or GIS are recharged.
Just as a blaster can use ranged attacks in melee, so can a pet, but Jack is not.
Post deleted by Moderator 08
Post deleted by Moderator 08
The results of the Fire, Illusion, Mind, and Plant tests are up.
Damage Pre 32, Fire, Illusion, Mind, and Plant
Damage Pre 32, Fire, Illusion, Mind, and Plant With Hasten
Damage 32, Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant
Damage 32 Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant With Hasten
Fire, Illusion, Mind, Plant Builds
Summary of Results:
Damage Pre 32
Illusion w/PA_________56s
Mind________________59s
Fire_________________1:13s
Plant________________1:13s
Illusion w/out PA______2:44s
Pre 32 With Hasten
Mind________________46s
Illusion w/PA_________47s
Fire________________1:04s
Plant_______________1:10s
Illusion w/out PA_____1:33s
32
Fire________________34s
Illusion w/PA________49s
Plant_______________1:00s
Mind_______________1:13s
Illusion w/out PA_____1:42s
32 With Hasten
Fire________________30s
Illusion w/PA________45s
Mind_______________46s
Illusion w/out PA_____1:06s
Plant_______________1:13s
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
And finally, here's a video showing the Time and DPS values for all the sets.
That combo is just seriously sick, and is a perversion of gameplay mechanics. - Excelsio
The Infernal Challenge
Building a WarTroller
Troller Damage
Very nice work. Big surprises for me were earth and grav being 2 and 3 post 32.
Poor plant and PA-less Ill, at least they are amazing at other stuff heh.
plant and grav w/ propel seem to get faster w/o hasten, that is wierd and might be worth looking at why.
Can you post once more ranking all of the sets for each catagory? right now it is separated over two posts, with a lot of drivel (sorry bout that) inbetween.
I'd do it for you, but this is your great work and I don't want to infringe upon it.
Thanks
P.S. Rise of the earth/storm AV solo'ers?
Significant portions of this post were removed for conduct violating the Message Forum Rules and Guidelines -Mod08
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Not really. Jack's love of melee gets him killed. He's just not built to handle melee. Ice performed so badly the first time I tested it with Jack, with Jack getting killed almost instantly, that I actually gave the set a Mulligan.
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Controllers are the pinnacle of active defense: any boss that's capable of killing your pets should be perma-held.
Taking a look at the video, what happened was you whiffed your hold and that was just enough for the boss to get lose and toast Jack - that shouldn't happen twice in a row if the dice are being fair and your hold is slotted with enough accuracy and hold duration. I'm guessing that, for the purposes of this test, it was heavily damage slotted. [Checking the builds video, it was ACC, ACC, DAM, DAM, DAM SOs.]
Besides, just about every secondary set has something to give an additional edge to a party member or pet. That particular character could have bubbled Jack and he'd be almost as hard to hit as a SR Scrapper. My preferred set, /Storm, could apply something like Hurricane to keep the boss from having a good chance at hitting my pet.
Not to pick a fight with you - I'm actually quite grateful that you pointed out my Illusion experiences with bosses were atypical. It's just I think I have a valid point here that Jack's love of melee shouldn't imperil him when a Controller is on the job. Keep Jack alive and that melee edge should manifest. Your Ice test was invalidated the minute he got knocked back, much less defeated before the final blows were landed. (But then, you probably don't have a real high opinion of Ice, or else you wouldn't have named that troller Gimpette