Kheldian Issue January 2009 post issue 13
You are right that the shields/melee attacks can become useless when faced with enemies that mez, but I think the beauty of Kheldians is that when faced with these situations we have other options to handle them. We are not forced to just sit there mezzed and useless.
I know human form builds are very common, but I wouldn't want to see anything done to cater to that thinking, there must be a sacrifice if you lose the forms, and I think mez protection is an appropriate sacrifice.
I would give you a 'bone' as it were and maybe agree on a small rework of the inherant, so that it works no matter where your team mates are, and so that the first controller adds 2 points of protection, but I wouldn't go any further.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
I'd venture that people who would prefer to play human only have a select few reasons that they don't want to mess with the dwarf or nova forms. Maybe they don't like the looks of them. Maybe some think the transformations take too long, or don't like the sound of it. Maybe they don't like tanking. Who knows. In either case, I think you are drawing your conclusion from a select few threads recently which have been started regarding human-only builds. I play on the highest-populated server (Freedom), and see new Khelds all the time. In my experience in talking with a lot of them, they're tri-form (or are planning to be tri-form, depending on their lvl) at least 85% of the time. Could be different on lower populated servers, but I'm pretty confident in my claim that (at least on the Warshade end) human-only builds are actually a much smaller population than tri-form or dual-form Khelds.
This is another reason why I got all "defensive" and stood up for myself when you and Obsidian went on the "attack" on human-only builds, as I had assumed that any experienced Kheld on the forums knew that building a human-only Kheld was/is hard, expensive, time-consuming, aggravating, and therefore presumably less-popular than making a tri-form, which is generally more straight-forward (or at least provides more options) in its "attack sequence" or "strategy." Hard to slot, and a hard learning curve, yes, but more straight forward.
Making a human-only build is a definitive choice for a Kheld, and not one that I go around "preaching" that everyone should do, unless they have the time, energy, influence, and patience for it. And even if one DOES start out with a plan for a human build, I STILL encourage them to grab the other forms as they're leveling up. They can always respec into a human form once they hit 40+, which is where the human forms shine the most.
"The One"
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Actually, I strongly disagree here. I believe human form builds are the minority, as *most* people who make Khelds want the shape-shifting powers, because no other AT gets it, and because it's a new and shiny thing, and because it's "the most powerful", and because it allows you to switch roles, and.... Well, you get the idea.
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This is another reason why I got all "defensive" and stood up for myself when you and Obsidian went on the "attack" on human-only builds
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I have as much respect for playstyle choices as anyone on these boards, just come from a different perspective.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
I think if we are talking Warshades you would be right, but I haven't seen very many tri-form PB's.
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Only recently, mid level kheldians are trying a human only build (shades too, it is much more viable now)
I still fail to see lv50 khelds played frequently. On the most populated server, I feel like being the last pb (my main toon).
I'm a Lv50 TriFormPB and in the Umbra Illuminati, an Infinity All Kheldian SG, we still see Lv50 TriFormPB's. At least on a weekly basis.
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Might be a US/EU thing, plus Kheldians are so rare it is hard to judge properly.
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Still here, even after all this time!
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I'd say that's more of the fact that Kheldians in some way are not as fun to play. I know I have a hard time playing my Peacebringers any more after playing several brutes and SoA's with Mezz Protection.
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I much prefer the mechanic of dropping to Dwarf than just shrugging everything off. It adds that extra element of fun and tactics, and gives you the challenge of building a character that has a good enough Dwarf form to cope.
I find that challenge fun, some don't.
But I really like the fact that Khelds are fairly rare, makes me feel special
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Pah, I remember when you had 3 lives and when they were done that was it, game over man. Game over. Not to mention we didn't have any of these fancy-pants Save Games or Spawning Points. If you wanted to finish a game you did it there and then, start to finish (or left the speccy on overnight and hoped the stupid thing didn't crash or the transformer melt).
Kids these days
*wanders off mumbling about The Good Old Days, when you got a new game and spend a week trying to get past the first screen*
(or left the speccy on overnight and hoped the stupid thing didn't crash or the transformer melt).
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The feeling of worry that you were getting too tired to play, but equally didn't dare take a break!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
Something I don't think I saw mentioned in here:
Now that black dwarf mire is on a 20 second recharge, the fact that it doesn't have a taunt effect has become really annoying. White dwarf flare gets a taunt, but not black dwarf mire. It makes it really hard to actually hold aggro on more than 6 targets at once (5 from taunt, 1 from hitting him). It didn't make much sense to give it a taunt when it took 2 minutes to come back, but it's beyond me why it didn't get one now that it's effectively the black dwarf's AoE attack. I'm getting tired of jumping into a group, taunting, and then having 2/3rds of them peel off as soon as anyone tosses an AoE.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
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This is what it means to be a tank!
I think that this game is so easy people are used to having everything given to them. With that kind of attitude they might as well remove mez from the game. And it is sad that so many people share the same feelings.
I much prefer the mechanic of dropping to Dwarf than just shrugging everything off. It adds that extra element of fun and tactics, and gives you the challenge of building a character that has a good enough Dwarf form to cope. I find that challenge fun, some don't. But I really like the fact that Khelds are fairly rare, makes me feel special ![]() |
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Kheldians are good. Concept wise. Mechanics and actual playability wise...It's possible, no doubt about it. Its just not particularly easy. And I dont mean easy as in lolSS/WP easy (Yes, I have an SS/WP Brute. Yes, I still die
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
VEATs are far from invincible. But they are...'straight forward'?
Khelds have a mechanic that no other AT has. Thats good.
Said mechanic is also rather clunky, and comes with the problem of not enough slots. Thats bad.
I seriously hope Khelds get some decent looking at and TLC, because they are worthy of an 'Epic' AT slot, they just haven't quite got there yet. Still.
(Btw, I SWEAR that Quants still two-shot Kheldians. In Dwarf form, too. And Human, and Nova, no matter what shields they have on. Minion, LT and Boss Quants and Voids, all just seem to punch a hole through Khelds like they were paper. Maybe some coding came undone somewhere down the line? Either way...I still hate 'em.)
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quite frankly, I'm too damned tired of the complaints to follow this entire thread, but here's my two cents.
Complaining about "no mez protection" for a kheldian is rather unfair. Blasters don't have Mez protection without sets, nor do Defenders or Controllers. Yes, you're a HEAT, but really you're asking for something other sets don't get and do quite well without, when devoted to their 'job', so to speak.
that being said, however, brings up my complaint about Kheldians in general. Compared to the VEAT's, they have a much rougher feel. A widow or soldier can 'evolve' into a unique role as they develop, giving them a feel I think Kheldians lack. As said somewhere above in the thread, Warshades have a unique feel based on their abilities. Peacebringers, however, are -- Dwarf and nova-wise, at least - - 'shiny' versions of the Warshade. Human form wise. WS are distinctly different even from other hero AT's. PB's however, are reminiscent of an Energy/energy blaster without half the powers, and given mediocre shields in compensation.
I think the problem with PB's isn't a need for mez protection in human form. It's a need for a distinctive role. I have a lvl 50 full human PB which I like, and am disappointed by simultaneously. He can solo missions and team well, but - - as said before -- the heavy KB gets in the way on teams. However, he also doesn't round out in any one area -- mid-lines at best. I don't have 3 VIABLE blasts to make a ranged attack chain, don't have 3 melee attacks to make a melee attack chain, and I don't have sufficient defense or resistance to be viable as a 'tanker'. My heal is on par with O2 boost, with half the range, and the 'pet' power is not even close to equal to the WS pet.
What human PB's need, IMO, isn't mez protection. It's identity. It needs something it can do that is unique to itself Perhaps a pet that's not a bomb, but a mini Amy Johnson. Perhaps it's a control power such as Blind, or an additional melee attack. But we need to think about the flavor of the AT, and give it something that makes it stand out as different.
And as a parting shot. How about Ancillary Access for Kheldians? VEATS get it. but Khelds don't and that's not fair.
"Only two things are infinite: the Universe and Human stupidity . . . and I'm not so sure about the Universe."
- - - Albert Einstein
No, human-form needs a basic amount of Mezz Protection. Their human inheirent is built around mezz protection, but it's uselessly small.
I *hate* having to take Dwarf form. It went totally against my human-form concept on one of my characters. Mutually exclusive powers are 'not fun'.
Still here, even after all this time!
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No, human-form needs a basic amount of Mezz Protection. Their human inheirent is built around mezz protection, but it's uselessly small.
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The humanform mez situation isn't that big a deal, IMHO. I don't think it needs changing. Would it be *nice?* Sure.
I *hate* having to take Dwarf form. It went totally against my human-form concept on one of my characters. Mutually exclusive powers are 'not fun'. |
No, human-form needs a basic amount of Mezz Protection. Their human inheirent is built around mezz protection, but it's uselessly small.
I *hate* having to take Dwarf form. It went totally against my human-form concept on one of my characters. Mutually exclusive powers are 'not fun'. |
Also Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, Blasters, Dominators, Masterminds need a basic amount of mez protection! They are unplayable without it!
Please note the irony there. Thank you
"I accidently killed Synapse, do we need to restart the mission?" - The Oldest One on Lord Recluses Strike Force
/disagree. *shrug* Maybe it's from coming from blasters initially, but I don't think it needs mez protection at all. As was said earlier - you have it available. Heck, we're given travel powers (most of the pool, in fact) free - well, half the pool free, one pick that's optional.
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If Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance didn't have +1 Mag protection per Controller/Dominator, it would be a moot point.
And really, Kheldians have the exact same problem that Defenders had. Solo they have some problems.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I agree!
Also Defenders, Corruptors, Controllers, Blasters, Dominators, Masterminds need a basic amount of mez protection! They are unplayable without it! Please note the irony there. Thank you |
Only one of those ATs listed though 'lives in melee' and Dominators do have some mezz protection (in the click after it is charged up) and have a lot harder controls.
Still here, even after all this time!
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So, basically negating all Mez throughout the game?
Having actually got a Warshade up to level 34 now, I can safely say; they dont need Mez protection in human form. A friend of mine has gone human form too, and he copes perfectly without it. I went triform, and never looked back.
What DOES need changing is the shapeshifting. It takes way too long to animate. At least it doesnt root. Other than that, they are pretty much WAI.
And holy Necro-post, Batman!
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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And really, Kheldians have the exact same problem that Defenders had. Solo they have some problems.
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Actually, in many ways I do think that everyone needs a couple of points of protection (to get them up to at least Boss protection.) |
Only one of those ATs listed though 'lives in melee' |
None of them have mez protection (except Doms in Domination.)
Saying "X AT lives/doesn't live in melee" is incorrect. The AT doesn't determine it. The powerset and the player's choices in that set do.
Also the Warshades hardest hitter is a melee attack.
It's true most mez are AoE, it's in fact exactly the roots of the problem with lack of mez protection in human form. But there is a subtle difference when you have to be in melee range, and when you can stay behind those in front.
For the warshade's hardest hitter melee attack, please, we're talking about just one attack. Which has been changed to deal more damage without reason, as it's of negative type damage. True, the old excuse saying mobs lowest resistance is versus negative was false nearly since it appeared. It's also funny to note Galaxy bosses using gravitic emanation also has their damage greatly increased.
For PB we're talking about 3 heavy hitter attacks, 4 if photon seekers is included given the effect using the seekers at point blank range it has, a 5th with the pbaoe mez pulsar power