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So, I need to spend 7+hrs running TFs to earn myself 1 Knockback Recipe?, when before I may just have been lucky enough to get it as a drop after a single TF OR recieved a Recipe I could sell to buy the one I wanted??, how is THAT a better system?
[/ QUOTE ]Because you only may have gotten that recipe you wanted. Or, you could have gotten nothing but worthless things that you don't want, and sell for little at the market in those 7 hours.
With this system, you're guaranteed to get what you want at the end of those 7 hours.
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Your missing the point. In those 7 or so hours I can run a Katie (30mins), a Manticore (90mins), a Respec (90mins) a Numina (90-120mins) and probably one more for a total of 5 Recipes, even my luck isn't THAT bad. I'm bound to get something I can use/sell, because the current rewards are also tradeable between my characters and friends. The market works because I know other folks are doing the same thing I am, so the supply IS there.
Merits = more Grind and less freedom to play the game your style (whatever that may be). More Grind just makes City of Heroes another boring grind-fest in a virtual sea of MMO grind-fests. Please tell me why, in THIS economic environment you want to be just another undistguishable MMO from all the rest?, that's just dumb.
Travel Suppression is this game's worst feature, well that and MetaHumans riding mass transit like tourists at DisneyLand.
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For a grand total of 2770 Merits 2770/55 (Posi Run Hero Side) = 51 times WITH THE SAME GUY. Times 200 minutes (less than your data mine at current) = 10200 mins (170 hours or 7.1 days). The 3 hour break for claiming Merits would be absorbed into the next running of Posi, so 7.1 days of back to back Posi would get 1 character their Merits.
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Please note, that somewhere in the middle of that they'll do a datamine and nerf the rewards of the TFs people are currently running, requiring you to find a new farm target.
This is not just me being pissy (although I am being pissy admittedly), Synapse was upfront. They will nerf the rewards of the TFs that people get significantly better at.
The only hope that grinding will not take forever as you opined is if people get fed up and start taking the random roll. And I don't think that will happen for Pool C until the roll rate is 10 or below.
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Oh i love that aspect too.
"once you guys get good at this stuff, we'll stick it to you again..."
Or not even that.
"Once the gold farmers start farming the crap out of TF's we'll screw the casual gamer AGAIN and lower the merits."
I give them a little credit for having the balls to be up frount about it, but it's a crappy polisicy IMO.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
O_o'
Umm... How many Task Forces and Trials are there for Heroes?
How many of them can you run in a day? (play session)
Casually, the system is decent because the few IO's I want for certian characters don't look to be border line impossible for me to get any more.
Casual Min/Maxer is in trouble because apparently IO's are their life blood.
Speed Runners will spread out over multiple Taskforces instead of running just the fastest easiest ones to complete.
The casual teaming as concerning Story Arcs only partly concerns me. I'm still not on the level of all humans are scum and will only do their own stuff and would expect that if this works for people to start doing the contacts again to get the story arcs started, those people doing the same arcs will be looking to work with each other. The selfish, greedy, impa... (unwilling to wait) will more then likely solo or rope people to do just their stuff but not all humans need to be shot.
This is just personal opinion as always but when the loot becomes the most important thing, you have already stopped caring about the game.
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O_o'
Umm... How many Task Forces and Trials are there for Heroes?
How many of them can you run in a day? (play session)
Casually, the system is decent because the few IO's I want for certian characters don't look to be border line impossible for me to get any more.
Casual Min/Maxer is in trouble because apparently IO's are their life blood.
Speed Runners will spread out over multiple Taskforces instead of running just the fastest easiest ones to complete.
The casual teaming as concerning Story Arcs only partly concerns me. I'm still not on the level of all humans are scum and will only do their own stuff and would expect that if this works for people to start doing the contacts again to get the story arcs started, those people doing the same arcs will be looking to work with each other. The selfish, greedy, impa... (unwilling to wait) will more then likely solo or rope people to do just their stuff but not all humans need to be shot.
This is just personal opinion as always but when the loot becomes the most important thing, you have already stopped caring about the game.
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1 Numina's Unique is 250 Merits...That's 5 Posi runs on 1 guy. How casual of a gamer can you be and still have time to do that and nothing else. Remember, Posi, ATM, has the best bang for the buck for TF Merits without doing a speed run.
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
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Poster: IronTiger
Q: Why do pool D random recipes cost more than pool C random? The price for a specific pool D is the same to a Pool C in most cases.
A: The cost of pool D rewards are higher due to the significantly higher likelihood of getting the desired enhancement with a single roll. Taskforce reward tables have substantially more items on them than Trial reward tables.
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You are aware that by that logic, Task Force random drops should cost something like 2 Merits, not 20?
Hmm... what's Numina's Unique?
As a casual gamer, why would I only run Positron?
I'm a casual gamer, if I really want that unique, then I will just be saving to get it but it won't become the central focus of my life.
I like this game because I don't have to have the absolute best stuff to be able do some of the harder/cooler content.
I like WoW as well as this game but with WoW, I know I will never get to do the super dungeons because I'm just not dead set on collecting 'uber' gear.
I HATE Final Fantasy XI because EVERYTHING is completely set on the stuff you have and if you don't have it, you 'ARE' dead.
Say I can run Positron... twice a week because of a 3/4 hour peirod of time, all the other time is generaly an hour to 90 minutes a day.
How long would it take me to get 250 merits considering that in all that other time I would be playing the rest of the game?
And I'm serious, what is Numina's Unique?
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Poster: Paradox1
Q: The Story Arc merit system seems to encourage us to solo non-TF missions, as running other people's story arcs earns 0 merits (unless we happen to have the same arc open). Is this really the way you want to encourage us to play the game?
A: While only offering Merits upon story arc completion to the owner of the story arc is consistent with our original reward system (only the mission owner earns the bonus story arc XP and gets to choose the SO enhancement) we understand that there is certainly room for improvement upon this. We will evaluate our options on how we can improve the rewards for party members along for the ride on a story arc.
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The EXP gain was fairly minimal, and the SO reward was insignificant. No one really cared about those things, so it was a non-issue. I think many will agree that people value merits more than a SO. This WILL be an issue on live. Builds that are better at soloing will simply grind their own arcs. Team forming will be more difficult now than ever. PLEASE reconsider this.
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Poster: Tempest_56
Q: How much a reduction are we going to see in future changes to merit awards, given that it's been shown that speed-runs of all the rewarding content can be (and will be) run? See: the 25 minute ITF. What failsafes are in place should the rewards for all available content drop to ridiculously low levels, thereby effectively locking out those of us who don't do TF speed runs four-plus times a day?
A: Were aware that there are Task Forces out there that can be completed far faster than they were intended. There will always be groups of players who will maximize their rewards for the amount of time they invest. Any increases or reductions to merits granted will only be done along with ample data supporting this decision. Let me give an example: Currently we show an average completion time of the Positrons taskforce of 235 minutes. If we saw this average completion time, not the fastest times mind you, drop to say 120 or 90 minutes, then wed look into how this is being done. What we could do mission side to fix this, and consider toning down merit rewards if necessary. On the up side, if we see a task that simply isnt giving enough rewards for the time required, well bump that up.
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Positron in particular is noted as a boring grindfest. If people are running it faster, why is this a problem? Are we to never stealth missions? Should everything be a kill all grind fest? IMO, if you beat a few groups on a map, you've proven you can beat them all. Less forced time sinks on already long tasks.
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For a grand total of 2770 Merits 2770/55 (Posi Run Hero Side) = 51 times WITH THE SAME GUY. Times 200 minutes (less than your data mine at current) = 10200 mins (170 hours or 7.1 days). The 3 hour break for claiming Merits would be absorbed into the next running of Posi, so 7.1 days of back to back Posi would get 1 character their Merits.
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QR
The only hope that grinding will not take forever as you opined is if people get fed up and start taking the random roll. And I don't think that will happen for Pool C until the roll rate is 10 or below.
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Below I think - at its current cost why on earth would anyone *ever* take a Pool C random roll. Most of that Pool is complete Bantha PooDoo. How is this not going to mean essentially *no* market for the mid-level Pool C's?
As I outlined above this has me Really Worried (tm). I'm a casual player from the standpoint of my playtime. I'm the father of 2 young girls, the employee of a software startup, I like to golf and even *gasp* spend time with my wife - in short I don't have a lot of gaming time and what time I have tends to come either in short bursts or late at night. That play schedule and Task Forces just don't mix - so I don't do many of them. OTOH, I'm totally obsessed when it comes to builds - I'm an inveterate min/maxer from all the way back to my PnP days. I just find it fun and so the set IO portion of this game is very appealing to me.
As it stands right now the existing drop and market system works for me. Sure, it's not perfect, but it doesn't lock me out of the resources I need to be happy. I can't create the 500Mil+ purpled out, super build - but I can get creative and leverage the IO system to make interesting, non-cookie cutter builds. That's a big part of why I'm still playing.
Unless the rewards from story arcs are increased significantly from where they are now I'm having trouble seeing how I won't end up locked out under this new system. My biggest worry is that this is entirely intentional. That the new design goal is that in order to create the kinds of builds that I currently do you must run TFs - which for me is just generally not an option (love to, can't). If anyone out there can show me how my fears are unfounded then I'm all ears. In particular if Synapse can comment on the *intended* impact on players like myself that would be great. I may not like the answer - but I would like to know what it is.
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Hmm... what's Numina's Unique?
As a casual gamer, why would I only run Positron?
I'm a casual gamer, if I really want that unique, then I will just be saving to get it but it won't become the central focus of my life.
I like this game because I don't have to have the absolute best stuff to be able do some of the harder/cooler content.
I like WoW as well as this game but with WoW, I know I will never get to do the super dungeons because I'm just not dead set on collecting 'uber' gear.
I HATE Final Fantasy XI because EVERYTHING is completely set on the stuff you have and if you don't have it, you 'ARE' dead.
Say I can run Positron... twice a week because of a 3/4 hour peirod of time, all the other time is generaly an hour to 90 minutes a day.
How long would it take me to get 250 merits considering that in all that other time I would be playing the rest of the game?
And I'm serious, what is Numina's Unique?
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I really don't know what to say.
Numina's Convalescence: +Recovery & +Regeneration
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Hmm... what's Numina's Unique?
As a casual gamer, why would I only run Positron?
I'm a casual gamer, if I really want that unique, then I will just be saving to get it but it won't become the central focus of my life.
I like this game because I don't have to have the absolute best stuff to be able do some of the harder/cooler content.
I like WoW as well as this game but with WoW, I know I will never get to do the super dungeons because I'm just not dead set on collecting 'uber' gear.
I HATE Final Fantasy XI because EVERYTHING is completely set on the stuff you have and if you don't have it, you 'ARE' dead.
Say I can run Positron... twice a week because of a 3/4 hour peirod of time, all the other time is generaly an hour to 90 minutes a day.
How long would it take me to get 250 merits considering that in all that other time I would be playing the rest of the game?
And I'm serious, what is Numina's Unique?
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The casual gamer is accually the one getting shafted here. In many different ways.
As a casual, how fast is your AVG Eden trial? 10 mins? No? well, thanks to powergamers you get 2 merits for it. Enjoy.
How about a KTF? 45 mins to an hour? Here you go, 7 merts.
2 trials regular players don't speed through now don't get enough reward to buy a common SO. Each of the said TF's have numerious AV's you have to defeat to complete. But not worth a common SO.
You know what'll happen when the powergamers and farmer turn there attation to other tfs? You get screw again. The dev's have said almost as much in THIS thread. There datamining is skewed farming and powergamers. There balancing the game around THEM. So casual get less and less for ther time cause people with all the freaking time the world are gaming the system.
Granted, i also don't belive "loot" is the be all end of all of this game, but without any reward, what's your modivation to run content AGAIN you've already ran a DOZEN times? I mean.. I've ran it all already... i'm sure most of us have... few noobs out there may not have, but they are hardly the majority... If the reward for running a TF is widdled down to insiginefince because of power gamers, what's my modiviation to run them again? Now, take into consideration if i want to grind Merits i have to do it on one hero... so, i'll be stuck running TF's for crappy rewards on just one hero... to get stuff to build my other heros...
When before, I'd play whoever i wanted... take random rolls, put the crap I didn't want on the market, use the money I made to buy the crap i did... and all of that was interchangble between my 2 accounts. I could play who i want, when i wanted, and pool my resorcuses between them all. It was a system that worked. and worked well. It's only flaw was some outragesly expensive IO's, and having merits as an addition to the old system patched it's one major flaw... resulting in an exellent IMO rewarding system.
NOW. Merits are IT. you collect them, trade them in for what you want, and go. It takes more time... it limits you mainly to one hero, and the majority of tfs now will be SPEED TF's. Eden will amost never be ran... and the market will see crasy inflattion once random drops stop getting sold since almost none in going to be blowing merits on random rolls. I said almost no one... sure some will, but the suppily will dimisish drematically, just wait and see.
But it seems, the dev's have to accually SEE it happen before they'll consider doing anything about it. So, just push I13 live already so we can get the ball rolling and see who's right. I'd love to be proven totally wrong on my view of the upcomming change, BELIVE ME. But i don't think i am.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Oh i love that aspect too.
"once you guys get good at this stuff, we'll stick it to you again..."
Or not even that.
"Once the gold farmers start farming the crap out of TF's we'll screw the casual gamer AGAIN and lower the merits."
I give them a little credit for having the balls to be up frount about it, but it's a crappy polisicy IMO.
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Economics for Devs: 001
If you want people to stop production lower the value of the good.
The way to stop farming was to make the enhances easier to obtain. The way to get people to play more content is to make the content better.
It seems effort was directed in neither direction.
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Poster: Healing_Phoenix
Q: Why is it that the Villain side SF payout is way less than Hero side TF payout? I feel that as a villain I'm being punished.
A: On average Villain Strike Forces take significantly less time to complete when compared to Hero Task Forces. Since time is the major factor when determining the number of Merits a task gives upon completion Villains on average receive less Merits per task, but roughly the same Merits per hour.
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A follow-up to this question is required. Have you considered the 24 hour timer in this? Consider a villain that does a task force every night at the same time, consider a hero that also does a task force every night at the same time .Or every other night, what ever. So long as they both complete the same number of TFs over the same suitably long time span.
The hero has the ability to earn 40, 50, or even 90 merits per 24 hour period.
The villain can only earn 35 in that same period.
Will anything be done to address this? Or am I oversimplifying the dimishing returns on the 24 hour drop window?
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Impervium Armor: Resistance - 220
Aegis: End/Rech - 200 (x2) = 400
Scirroco's Dervish: Acc/Dam/End - 200 (x2) = 400
Mako's Bite: Dam/Rech - 200 (x2) = 400
Luck of the Gambler: Def/+Rech 7.5% - 200 (x2) = 400
Numina's Convalescence: +Regen/+Recov - 250
Miracle: +Recovery - 240
Devastation: Dam/Rech - 220
Unbounded Leap: +Stealth - 240
For a grand total of 2770 Merits 2770/55 (Posi Run Hero Side) = 51 times WITH THE SAME GUY. Times 200 minutes (less than your data mine at current) = 10200 mins (170 hours or 7.1 days). The 3 hour break for claiming Merits would be absorbed into the next running of Posi, so 7.1 days of back to back Posi would get 1 character their Merits
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Translation: You were never supposed to have that stuff. We have taken steps to make certain its worthless in pvp and have drastically curtailed its future availability in PVE.
Investment tip: Buy Respec recipes the need to strip IOs out of toons has just gone way up.
Goodluck everyone trying to slot out your toon's 2nd build done when you can't get merits and anything you find that gives merits faster than they like will get nerfed.
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1 Numina's Unique is 250 Merits...That's 5 Posi runs on 1 guy. How casual of a gamer can you be and still have time to do that and nothing else.
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How casual a gamer can you be and want a Numana's Unique?
My characters get maybe a few pool A recipe sets during their careers. Four or five if I'm feeling ambitious. The build you posted is alien to me. I seriously doubt there are very many casual gamers who would attempt such a thing now, let alone after I13 goes live.
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But it seems, the dev's have to accually SEE it happen before they'll consider doing anything about it. So, just push I13 live already so we can get the ball rolling and see who's right. I'd love to be proven totally wrong on my view of the upcomming change, BELIVE ME. But i don't think i am.
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This is exactly how I feel. I would seriously love to be proven wrong, but the devs don't care about theorycraft.
What's funny is that when the markets first opened, many posters, including myself told them if they had a sealed bid auction system instead of a transparent market that it would be gamed, manipulated and people would hate it.
The devs then said they liked the "market PvP" aspect. So they went live with it. And people complained to high heaven (and Positron's inbox), then merits.
You would think that just once they would try to listen to some theorycraft.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Thanks for answering some of the major questions, Synapse.
I still have to wonder if you guys have done any research into the total number of players that actually run through storylines. I think I've been on one team that did contact missions instead of simply radio/newspaper grinds in the last six months.... With such a low merit reward for completing them, why do them at all now? Especially since only the contact gets said rewards....
Oh, and are you trying to promote not using IO sets now? I know they're always been "optional," but IO sets were the closest thing to "fixing" the ED nerf. I have 0 interest in grinding TFs to get IO sets. ZERO. They already annoy me enough as they currently stand. If I do them at all, it's solely for the badge, not for the random (and usually crappy) IO I have the "opportunity" to acquire. I buy IO sets off the market and with the random acquisition of them departing with the addition of "purchase what you want" with merits, how is anyone who semi-casually plays the game going to ever afford the inf prices the ones people choose to sell are going to have?
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Goodluck everyone trying to slot out your toon's 2nd build done when you can't get merits and anything you find that gives merits faster than they like will get nerfed.
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Oh, I think I can come up with enough funding to fill up the second build with SOs eventually.
Who knows, I might even toss some common IOs in there...
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1 Numina's Unique is 250 Merits...That's 5 Posi runs on 1 guy. How casual of a gamer can you be and still have time to do that and nothing else.
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How casual a gamer can you be and want a Numana's Unique?
My characters get maybe a few pool A recipe sets during their careers. Four or five if I'm feeling ambitious. The build you posted is alien to me. I seriously doubt there are very many casual gamers who would attempt such a thing now, let alone after I13 goes live.
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Thats a pretty standard build for many of my toons. I have 17 completely IO'd out 50's with the purples and the uniques, it wasn't easy, it took 100's of hours....
Once the community see's how badly the new system is nerfed I'm afraid many will simply lose hope at being able to really make and complete their toons the way they want to.
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Poster: Healing_Phoenix
Q: Why is it that the Villain side SF payout is way less than Hero side TF payout? I feel that as a villain I'm being punished.
A: On average Villain Strike Forces take significantly less time to complete when compared to Hero Task Forces. Since time is the major factor when determining the number of Merits a task gives upon completion Villains on average receive less Merits per task, but roughly the same Merits per hour.
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A follow-up to this question is required. Have you considered the 24 hour timer in this? Consider a villain that does a task force every night at the same time, consider a hero that also does a task force every night at the same time .Or every other night, what ever. So long as they both complete the same number of TFs over the same suitably long time span.
The hero has the ability to earn 40, 50, or even 90 merits per 24 hour period.
The villain can only earn 35 in that same period.
Will anything be done to address this? Or am I oversimplifying the dimishing returns on the 24 hour drop window?
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You are over simplfying, it a per character and PER TASK.
So in the time it takes a hero to run Doc Q for those 90 the villan could run 2-3 seperate TFs
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Goodluck everyone trying to slot out your toon's 2nd build done when you can't get merits and anything you find that gives merits faster than they like will get nerfed.
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Oh, I think I can come up with enough funding to fill up the second build with SOs eventually.
Who knows, I might even toss some common IOs in there...
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Well they haven't moved your cheese. But they have moved many other people's, hope they are prepared for them to exit the maze.
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1 Numina's Unique is 250 Merits...That's 5 Posi runs on 1 guy. How casual of a gamer can you be and still have time to do that and nothing else.
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How casual a gamer can you be and want a Numana's Unique?
My characters get maybe a few pool A recipe sets during their careers. Four or five if I'm feeling ambitious. The build you posted is alien to me. I seriously doubt there are very many casual gamers who would attempt such a thing now, let alone after I13 goes live.
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This I agree with. Any discussion of the impacts of this on players who don't run lots of TF/SF (which is how I'm going to interpret "casual" for this thread) should avoid examples involving any of the "big time" IOs like Numinas or LOTG. It just undercuts the argument and gives folks a straw man to shoot down.
However, I disagree that this won't have an impact on casual players who currently make use of IOs outside of the majors. My next task will be to take 2 or 3 of my favorite builds (all of which use lots of IOs, but no big ticket items) and see exactly what they will take to reproduce in the new system. If they can't be done using primarily story arc based awards then I think the new system negatively impacts the "casual" player. Right now my intuition is that this will prove true, but I need to go out and prove it (just a hypothesis ATM).
BTW - even if they *can* be done using only story arc based awards there is still the problem that only the arc holder gets said reward - if I'm going to need all my arcs to get the merits I need, then I'm never running someone elses - not desired behavior IMO.
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Poster: Healing_Phoenix
Q: Why is it that the Villain side SF payout is way less than Hero side TF payout? I feel that as a villain I'm being punished.
A: On average Villain Strike Forces take significantly less time to complete when compared to Hero Task Forces. Since time is the major factor when determining the number of Merits a task gives upon completion Villains on average receive less Merits per task, but roughly the same Merits per hour.
[/ QUOTE ]
A follow-up to this question is required. Have you considered the 24 hour timer in this? Consider a villain that does a task force every night at the same time, consider a hero that also does a task force every night at the same time .Or every other night, what ever. So long as they both complete the same number of TFs over the same suitably long time span.
The hero has the ability to earn 40, 50, or even 90 merits per 24 hour period.
The villain can only earn 35 in that same period.
Will anything be done to address this? Or am I oversimplifying the dimishing returns on the 24 hour drop window?
[/ QUOTE ]
You are over simplfying, it a per character and PER TASK.
So in the time it takes a hero to run Doc Q for those 90 the villan could run 2-3 seperate TFs
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Whew, thanks for the clarification. I feel better about this whole thing now.
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1 Numina's Unique is 250 Merits...That's 5 Posi runs on 1 guy. How casual of a gamer can you be and still have time to do that and nothing else.
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How casual a gamer can you be and want a Numana's Unique?
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Anyone can look at the markets, "hardcore," "Casual," or "Bleedin' Loony."
Anyone can notice an IO and think "Wow, that might be useful."
A casual gamer can see and want a Numina's unique just as much as anyone else.
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For a grand total of 2770 Merits 2770/55 (Posi Run Hero Side) = 51 times WITH THE SAME GUY. Times 200 minutes (less than your data mine at current) = 10200 mins (170 hours or 7.1 days). The 3 hour break for claiming Merits would be absorbed into the next running of Posi, so 7.1 days of back to back Posi would get 1 character their Merits.
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Please note, that somewhere in the middle of that they'll do a datamine and nerf the rewards of the TFs people are currently running, requiring you to find a new farm target.
This is not just me being pissy (although I am being pissy admittedly), Synapse was upfront. They will nerf the rewards of the TFs that people get significantly better at.
The only hope that grinding will not take forever as you opined is if people get fed up and start taking the random roll. And I don't think that will happen for Pool C until the roll rate is 10 or below.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.