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You want Controllers, Defenders, and Blasters on your team. Melee is worthless.
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I see a bunch of people complaining about him singling out Melee, but I'll say that it's quite true what he says. And this is coming from someone that specializes in Katie-specific Melee toons primarilly and usually is sitting at 1.6x or higher Accuracy and 100% or higher ToHit base before anyone drops any buffs on me, and has extra-powerful fear and immob powers just for keeping Katie right where she spawns. In general? Melee BLOWS on a Katie.
I'm the exception. So are most of you that do heavy Melee on Katie's. Deny it all you want, but pull up your Combat Attributes view, and look at your Accuracy and ToHit modifiers. Are they green or blue? You've built in counters to the storms of hurricanes you'll be facing. That's why you work so well despite being Melee, not because of it.
So cut him some slack. He's being honest here, sure, you can retrofit Melee to work on a Katie, but it won't work without tuning it for that, anymore than a 1.5 liter econo-box engine will spit out 200+ horsepower without tuning it for the purpose.
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Kinetics: Speed boost!! Speed boost everyone (and occasionally pets) every time the witch oes down on mission one! EVERY TIME! this will help keep the AoE holds up and running and seriously help the damage output. Also position yourself so every siphon power hits the very most of your teammates. Every siphon power for defenders give +25% damage and controllers get +15% (I believe).
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I wholeheartedly agree and have an addendum to this: ID your team. Keeping it perma sucks, for sure and I don't do this. I do make it part of the SB buff cycle, since it fits in nicely during the time when waiting for SB recharges. ID is a great "secret weapon" for the first mission. It protects against repel, kb, stuns and adds resistance to Smashing and Energy. In other words, everything that makes the witches a pain, ID combats.
Yeah it's a major pain, but for 10 minutes, Kins should make this buff a priority. I could argue it's even more important than SB against the Cabal (but I won't).
So though I agree that SB (and ally buffs in general) are a priority, I vehemently disagree with
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Defenders in general: Don't attack..
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I don't even know what to say to this, it's so perplexing. I have 2 defenders I do Katies with, Kin/Sonic and Cold/Ice. Both of the secondary effects are EXTREMELY useful, not even considering the damage of the attacks. Sorry, that's a piece of advice I won't be following and can't condone it whatsoever for others to follow.
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You want Controllers, Defenders, and Blasters on your team. Melee is worthless.
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I see a bunch of people complaining about him singling out Melee, but I'll say that it's quite true what he says. And this is coming from someone that specializes in Katie-specific Melee toons primarilly and usually is sitting at 1.6x or higher Accuracy and 100% or higher ToHit base before anyone drops any buffs on me, and has extra-powerful fear and immob powers just for keeping Katie right where she spawns. In general? Melee BLOWS on a Katie.
I'm the exception. So are most of you that do heavy Melee on Katie's. Deny it all you want, but pull up your Combat Attributes view, and look at your Accuracy and ToHit modifiers. Are they green or blue? You've built in counters to the storms of hurricanes you'll be facing. That's why you work so well despite being Melee, not because of it.
So cut him some slack. He's being honest here, sure, you can retrofit Melee to work on a Katie, but it won't work without tuning it for that, anymore than a 1.5 liter econo-box engine will spit out 200+ horsepower without tuning it for the purpose.
[/ QUOTE ]Actually, I've found that 1-2 melees, even without massive Katie-building, with an earth controller, an emp, and a rad does the job good. It's just a case of the melees being able to get the lightning storms to focus on them, and packing blues.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Bring Stormies, their O2 Boost gives EndDrain protection from all the electrical attacks and it provides stun protection versus the lightning bolt attack.
Oh wait, I guess this falls under the rubric that everybody has something to offer and you don't need specific builds.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Or Force Fields. They give hefty +defense but also protect against end drain.
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I don't even know what to say to this, it's so perplexing. I have 2 defenders I do Katies with, Kin/Sonic and Cold/Ice. Both of the secondary effects are EXTREMELY useful, not even considering the damage of the attacks. Sorry, that's a piece of advice I won't be following and can't condone it whatsoever for others to follow.
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/sonic defenders i can see attacking due to their great -resistance but for builds such as kinetics and even trick arrow, you dont have time to be attacking. for every attack you dish out thats one primary support power that could have been used in it's place. "Don"t attack should only refer to katie herself. As for taking out the group of badies yes, attack with whatever AoE you have to get the minions fisnished off quickly. While you can say the defender's damage actually helps you really have to consider by how much. I'm sure theres some math freak out there going to figure out the best possible attack chain for doing katie for defneders (such as buff, buff, debuff, attack, buff etc) but every attack i do i have a siphon power that could have been used in it's place, which of course is highly more effective than a power burst or any of my other attacks.
But yes, i see your point with sonic, although i cant find the issue with cold, unless the cold defender doesn't have anything else to do. It all the debuffs are applied and all your teamate's are happily buffed then theres no other option but to attack.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
I had the good fortune of being one of those random 'fenders asked to do a Fast Katie by Airman last night. It was smooth like butter, I honestly don't think anyone's health bar even moved, and the whole shebang took about 30 minutes.
Thanks Airman!
On Victory we've got the runs down to roughly 15-18 minutes. Dependent on team build up (and how well people know their toons)
Earth (quicksand is best), Plant or fire to lock-down the mobs.
Radiation or Sonic debuffs.
Archery AND Fire blaster to blast each mob.
Rest is candy. Kins do make it go a bit faster, but it's optional.
A proper Archery blaster can nova each group, first 5-6 mobs he can take down himself. After that, the fire's nova is needed due to the high amounts of bosses. We run first mission in roughly 10 minutes.
If you don't have a controller to lock-down mobs, you're looking at a VERY good archery blaster that knows when to nova the group. I've found that if you hit Aim + BU and do RoA after the Received the badge after each mob, you hit them right when they spawn.
I've run hundreds of katies on various servers.
Fastest time was 16:01, post nerf.
I'd just never thought anyone would bother to write a guide for such a short and simple TF lol
1. The ideal team make-up definitely ISN'T 8 controllers.
You actually just need enough control to immob mary, for the cases where she starts to run around. The rest is about min/maxing.
2. Defender buffs/debuffs are far stronger than controllers'. Once the minions, LTs and bosses are gone, it's all about ST debuffs and ST damage. 1 controller usually can stack enough immobs/holds to suffice. It's all about how fast you can debuff and kill mary, not how much control your team can potentially stack.
Hypothetical team:
4 blappers
3rad/defenders
1 /emp troller
a.) Spawn-->Nuke--> Mary left.
b.)Rads debuff, blasters blast/blap while troller stacks holds/immobs.
c.)Repeat.
It's as simple as that.
If the rad/ defenders are rad/sonics, even better, more -res.
Most of the PuGs I form take between 20-24 minutes. My priorities are to have at least 2 rads, and 1 troller. That would be the core.
Some melee is fine. Blappers can kite in for their hits, if their are recharge gaps in their ranged attack chains.
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Defenders in general: Don't attack..
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I wouldn't say that. I'd go back to the general rule for defenders, which is to work in attacks when you can, and when you know it's safe enough to. Once most of the spawn is down, and you aren't throwing heals as much, throw single-target blasts instead. Especially if, like mine, they have secondary effects like sleep or disorient (so the target doesn't aggro back to you even if you do hit them).
Interesting guide. Not entirely accurate IMHO, but to each his own.
Best KTF I've ever been a part of: 1 controller, 5 defenders, and 2 blasters. Zero deaths and finished in 22min.
Combining AoE damage specialists, ST damage, and debuffs make for a fast KFT. That's it. End of guide.
As for melee being worthless. 
You should try the KTF with 2 spines/dark scrappers that are HALF-WAY decent. They are very impressive in missions 1 and 3.
I find I usually shave off about 3 min when I log my storm/sonic def compared to my fire/storm, earth/ta, mind/kin, or cold/dark toons.
/sonic defs make Mary drop insanely fast. Most pugs I'm on with that toon finish around 20 +/- 1-2 min.
<didn't read the thread, so not sure if /sonic has been included as a staple>
QR
The thing with guides is that people read them and don't think about them.
For instance, in this thread the importance of not having Tactics on, to prevent Katie from aggro'ing the mobs, has been pointed out. Which is fine, in and of itself.
But I had people jump on my case to turn off tactics when I was standing at the top of the hill by the mission door, not even thinking about going to rescue Katie.
I pointed out that I was nowhere near Katie, and as such, running tactics was irrelevant. (Plus, there's the issue of surrounding teammates - or me - not being blinded when an ambush runs over and a boss tosses a gnome onto their head.)
The response?
"Pls turn off tactics."
Even the argument of, "When she gets in range, it may affect her," doesn't really hold up, since Tactics only has a 60-foot radius, and the fight had moved up to the tree on the hill by the time Katie was anywhere near the door. Unless the person dragging her was flying within 60 feet of the ground (which I doubt - her natural aggro radius is big enough that 60 feet is going to get her shooting at things), tactics is STILL irrelevant.
I did go ahead and shut it off, because I prefer to play nice with others (and when people decide to dig in their heels about something irrelevant - like the possibility of Katie somehow aggro'ing on an ambush when she gets within 60 feet of the mission entrance, if I'm standing all the way back there - I have better ways to spend my time than explaining why they're wrong), but I was thankful that we have the Player Notes feature so that I could remind myself later who these folks were.
People need to THINK about what they read in guides. Yes, Airman's method works predictably well. It's not the only way that works, though, and I've been on plenty of PUG Katies that had no trouble coming in under 30 minutes, even with multiple melee toons in tow. 
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
30 mins for a non-pug Katie... Sorry, not very impressive. I run PUG Katies all the time with my FF/Elec Defender, and most days we turn in a 25 min time. Of course, you do have your 35 min screw-ups from time to time but under 30 is pretty standard. Actually I like to think it takes us longer to get the people lined-up for the TF, then the TF itself.
The fastest I was on, was with seven trollers... maybe 18 mins. But those guys were friends with my SG leader, so all vets.
You know... I rather have a guide to how to recruit for a Katie PUG. Because over the months, I've seen that being the bigger problem on slow times.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
Earthwyrm, I wish you would realize the "Turn tactics off" isn't for you, the person that knows to stay out of range, it's for the team in general because not everyone does know. It's just easier to say "turn them off" then go into some tutorial about "make sure that, relative to Katie, you're at least 60 feet away".
When I have the star on a Katie run, I'm that guy that dictates that Tactics must be turned off. Exception - if I know all 7 other members of the team. Write your notes accordingly.
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You know... I rather have a guide to how to recruit for a Katie PUG. Because over the months, I've seen that being the bigger problem on slow times.
[/ QUOTE ]
The OP did this.
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30 mins for a non-pug Katie... Sorry, not very impressive. I run PUG Katies all the time with my FF/Elec Defender, and most days we turn in a 25 min time. Of course, you do have your 35 min screw-ups from time to time but under 30 is pretty standard. Actually I like to think it takes us longer to get the people lined-up for the TF, then the TF itself.
The fastest I was on, was with seven trollers... maybe 18 mins. But those guys were friends with my SG leader, so all vets.
You know... I rather have a guide to how to recruit for a Katie PUG. Because over the months, I've seen that being the bigger problem on slow times.
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Granted, the extra time you take to get a correct configuration could mean more (or less) the 5-10 minutes extra you save one the actual TF.
@Mojo-
Proud Member of Fusion Force.
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Katie really needs a guide? Get some players who know what they are doing on ANY ATs.
Done.
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[/ QUOTE ]
Fixed.
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QFT
Mr E-Man ~ Mr E-Villain
XBL GamerTag: il Radd
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<QR>
You don't need a crapload of Controllers to do this TF right (but hey, the more the merrier). Ice Slick, Quicksand, and Earthquake work well for grounding the mobs as they spawn, ditto for Tar Patch.
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Storm/* Defenders or */Storm controllers can use Snow Storm to ground the witches, too. Plus they may have O2 Boost, which provides some protection from Endurance Drain. I love using my Ice/Storm controller on this TF.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
[ QUOTE ]
Some people will drive around the parking lot for 10 minutes to save 2 minutes of walking. Never made sense to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as a observation..it makes sense to me. Try going in someplace like Lowes to buy lumber and heavy items (refrigerators, stoves, etc) and then cart them all the way out to your truck and put them in.
Yeah..better to spend that 10 min finding a close spot so you don't have so far to haul the lumber or items before loading.
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Airman's way is the definitely fastest, and the TF can easily be done in under 15 minutes that way. But any team can do this in 30 mins. I've seen it with no defuffers, 7 melees + a defender, 4 tanks + 4 blasters, what have you. I'd rather just grab what's available and do it in 25 minutes, then spend 20 minutes putting together the "perfect" team. Do the math. As far as I'm concerned, time spent building the team counts too.
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I'd have to agree with this assessment..building a team is part of the time that's involved I'd think, as well.
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I think the "melee is useless" was unfair to say, since every AT has its benefits and drawbacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
I second, adding the team build time to the total.
But the Best Katies to me are the ones where no one face plants,and everyone gets a good recipe at the end.
/Empaths can turn three people into Jesus, one person into God, and everyone else into the twelve apostles.~Angry_Citizen
Don't you know that discussion of power selection/slotting can ONLY be based on hearsay, rumor, idle speculation, and bald-faced lies??!? ~Elf_Sniper
I have done hundreds of katies, a lot under 20 mins.... I would Never want all trollers. I would rather have all fenders than all trollers. I want 2 trollers, 4 fenders, and 2 blasters. A Kin fender with FS at 32 is awesome, dark fender, rad, cold..... and then the 2 trollers /rad.... and blasters.
I have done a couple with you, and they were ok. Both were around 30 mins. But anymore I am used to them being 25 or less. Add more defenders and you'll be knocking off a couple mins. that's just my opinion.
This guide is not about:
1. The same 8 guys doing it over and over.
2. Searching for the perfect powers.
3. Setting time records.
The guide IS about:
1. Using a PUG to get a goal done.
2. Getting the PUG assembled fast as possible.
3. Ensuring success. Keeping it short.
4. Treating the TF as a "rare farm" that you can do a couple times a night. I do the same on alternate days with the Cap SF.
5. Avoiding traditional farms that occur in PI, avoiding being buzzed for PLs. Sorry, some like it, I don't. I get tells requesting me to do it every night... it is so nice to reply "on a TF". Nobody bugs me after that.
Now, I see a lot of folks here arguing, and I suspect some of that is they do not like the idea of a "put down" on their beloved Tank or Scrapper. However, that is not the point of the Guide. The Guide is here to show you how to effectively "farm" Katie, get it done easily, and get it done with success. I also recognize at least one person here that I had to kick off my team (in 4 months of at least 2 Katies a day I have had to do that 2 times so you can see how awful they were) for not being a good teammate and following instructions. Instead they cursed like sailors and were wanton about tactics of even the most basic kind. A person like this is not fun to play with, they know it too, they just like being some sort of "bad azz", perhaps due to an unhappy life. Cyber bullies come in various flavors.
So, why Controllers?
1. Lock Down. Unless you like the idea of the witches flying all over, chasing them, having them in your face, then you want to immediately immobilize them. Controllers do that perfectly. That is what the class is all about. I am talking here about overpower, I am talking here about getting some Controllers that do not lock down as well as others due to their powers. I am talking about ensuring these witches have 0 chance. I want my Rare Recipe, that is all I do this for. I want to populate my existing 50s, each one, with Miracles, Numinas, Luck of the Gamblers and so on, and not pay a one red dime for them in the store!
2. I ask Controllers and Defenders EQUALLY. Since I use my Global Friends first, then search using 30 - 50. I might get lucky and get more Defenders than Controllers, I might get more Controllers. The only problem with Global Friends is that, even though they know I want to have a team with Controllers/Defenders/Blasters, they sometimes show up using a Tank or a Scrapper. I cant blame them, they are attempting to level a melee toon. I dont complain, I just work around them.
3. There are instances where a Global will want to bring a buddy along. Usually I get the luck of the draw in that case.
So, yeah, I usually have 1 to 2 melee on the team. that happens. I usually have 1 to 2 Defenders on the team. I cannot help that there are less Defenders in the range I want online (do a search sometime, you will see they amount to about a third of population available to ask). Controllers are far more represented and available for teaming.
I have, personally, seen all Defender teams do nicely, do the STF, bust all the margins. I have 4 level 50 Defenders. The problem is that they seem less popular than other ATs.
So, that is the reason I go for searches of both Controllers and Defenders, dealing with the unknown of PUGS, assembling the team quickly, and why I assemble Blasters last. I want to see the content of the team first, then grab what I need for damage. Control amd then Damage is key for me. Yeah, sometimes I have to reverse that if I see the team start to fill with Damage first, however, the idea is not to let those witches move an inch. If I can assemble a team to do that, the team wins, it wins with less effort, it wins with less deaths.
So... please quit sticking up and trying to defend your Melee toon or justify how good they are, or, telling folks how your team does it in 20 minutes, or, how your blah blah blah.
That is not the focus here. the Focus is getting your guarenteed Rare Recipe in about 30 minutes, with a pick up group - period.
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
lol Airman, i just noticed your sig. that put a smile on my face.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
I run with Airman pretty much every day. This works hands down. we range from 28-31 minutes. I have some tips of my own.
Kinetics: Speed boost!! Speed boost everyone (and occasionally pets) every time the witch oes down on mission one! EVERY TIME! this will help keep the AoE holds up and running and seriously help the damage output. Also position yourself so every siphon power hits the very most of your teammates. Every siphon power for defenders give +25% damage and controllers get +15% (I believe).
Defenders in general: Don't attack.. let the controllers pretend they are scrapper for awhile. Just use your primary powers. put all toggles on mary. Any other target will die too quickly. Cold defenders should benumb every chance they get.
Final tip: Buffing allies comes before any form of damage for defenders.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484