Should art presented here be critiqued?
By
Bill Z Bubba,
Posted on: 2008-07-24 24:38 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
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Personally, as someone with no capacity to create art (and thus am left with mostly critique when surfing through this particular board. HAHAhaaa. Surfboard), I try to gauge things specifically on whether or not the artist is even asking for critique.
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If I ask, I want it. For example...
'something is bugging me about the figure in this piece, but I can't quite put my finger on it. What do you guys think?'
But if I'm posting up a pic (especially a paid commission), I would hope that if someone is making negative comments about it, they'd take it to a PM. Because, if someone truely has critique and help in mind, they don't need to gloat all over the boards bashing art... a polite whisper will do.
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I'd have to totally agree with Juggy here. If a piece is finished (i.e. a commission) I think it's pretty much a no no unless asked for. If you want to critique it keep it to PM's. There have been a few people on here (occasionally, overall I think everyone here rocks) that almost seem to delight in pointing out all the flaws in artists work. Also I think that pointin g out good and bad is better than just pointing out bad. Many of us almost have the "we're a large family" vibe here and when one is attacked the others feel like he/she should be defended. Keeping it to a PM will help keep it from escalating into something really ugly.
I like getting constructive critiques. It helps me learn how to improve. If no one says "the legs look a little off, maybe you should elongate her calves a bit" or "your feet are too small" how am I going to learn? While many artists are their own worst critics, it can take an honest "have you tried this technique" or "try looking at this anatomy book, it's really good" for me to learn how to improve.
In fact I praise Crestent for often encouraging critiques of his works. In the past year he has dramatically improved and has done so by practically begging for advice from others.
And when I have shown some of my pieces to others at some conventions, I ask them how I could have done it better. Sometimes I can see that something is off but I just can't pinpoint the problem.
So if I post something, personally, that I specify is my own work, I want and encourage comments on how I could do better. This even goes for my photography or mini-painting. I won't turn down praise, but I value critiques that help me without being inflammatory or derogatory (like "j00 suXX0rz!").
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Art is, IMO, created to be critiqued.
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This has hit a nerve, so I'm going to clarify a bit.
Nobody (well, hardly anybody) creates art thinking "I hope somebody critiques this". They create it because the act of creating gives them a feeling of some kind of pleasure or accomplishment or catharsis or just plain satisfaction.
Art is an experience. Sometimes the artist is aiming to provide a particular experience. Sometimes just a vision. Sometimes she puts little thought into it at all and it's just "fun".
The act of viewing the art is the act of experiencing what the artist has wrought. IMO, this inherently involves some level of critique on the part of the viewer, regardless of whether the resulting opinion is positive, negative, or something else.
I'm not suggesting that makes voicing your critique any more appropriate in this venue, just saying that it's an inherent process, even if the viewer doesn't neccesarily have the words to describe the experience.
I summarized that in the interests of brevity and missed the mark. That's my bad.
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more often than not, a chip on their shoulder just waiting to lash out at something.
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I'd consider that an overly broad generalization, particularly given that "I liked the lighting in this piece" is, while positive, still a critique.
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Personally I favour critiques, especially well structured ones. Depending on the situation, I may make adjustments to that piece or I may not. Usually I think of critiques as 'advice or thoughts for the future.' (Remember that critiques can point out the positive and negative, as well as offer a different view point.)
Because while hearing only the positives, the one-liners, the good-job's is quite wonderful, it can get boring. And doesn't help the progression of the artist.
That said, I would respect the wish of any who posted 'no critique's please.'
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I'm glad someone feels the same way I do.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
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All my characters
The way I see it?
If you're putting something up for display, then you probably want people's thoughts on it. I mean, you want to know if people are enjoying your work, right?
If you want their thoughts on it, then you'll have to deal with the fact that some things may be negative, or barring that, some people may noticed aspects of the work or style that seem to need improvement or modification. And so they'll say what's on their minds. So such comments are to be expected.
Putting up a piece of work and expecting "positive comments only" is arrogant, cowardly, and counter-productive to one's growth as an artist. And if someone PAID you to do a piece? Then you damn well BETTER listen to what people have to say... or do you want to be known as someone who charges fees for work that could be better?
Because really, if you're going to roll with the pros and charge for your work, you better make sure that you're as good of an artist as you can be... and you're not going to get there without a critical eye to help you along the way.
What people need to learn is to separate comments on the PIECE from comments about the artist. This goes both ways. If i say "The coloring looks a bit sloppy, as it goes out of the lines in a few places", then I'm talking about the COLORING on that SPECIFIC piece. While it's true that this can translate to "It shows that YOU are a sloppy colorist", that's NOT what I'm saying. Learn to take comments for what they mean and keep your fragile glass egos out of it.
And reviewers need to keep out the word "you" and try to distance the artist from the piece they're critiquing. Like, you can probably color everything perfect, but if in that once piece there were a couple of minor errors, people shouldn't come out and say "You're a sloppy colorist, lern 2 photoshop, nub!"
In short, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
did you really just say "roll with the pros ? " and "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen " and "Charging fees for work "
I have no intrest in rolling with the pros , or leaving the forum because im not intrested in critiques by cowardly people that can't even be bothered to post art in the first place .
And not all of us charge fees or do comissions or do comissions .
any more pithy catch phrases you wanna toss out there ?
But there are times and places for things. As has been mentioned previously, there are forums devoted to art critiquing. That's not really the feel of this particular forum. The question wasn't really about every place, but about HERE, specifically.
And Emporer Steele chimes in , im so glad another person that regularly posts art has chimed in to a discussion explaing to his fellow artists how best to grow as a artist ....oh wait you never actually post art .....
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Putting up a piece of work and expecting "positive comments only" is arrogant, cowardly, and counter-productive to one's growth as an artist.
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Its not... there are more reasons why people share their work.
I share things because it makes me feel like there is a reason for drawing (its a lot more motivating when you think someone might see what you are drawing ...instead of just being deleted or thrown into some random folder on your computer to never be seen again).
Its like spending hours cooking a big lovely cake...and then when you are finished just dumping it into the trash. You arent really looking for people to tell you what you did wrong with it, but you probably want someone to at least enjoy it a little bit and validate all the time you put into making it....
Mew
While this is an emotionally charged issue in several respects, it's been a useful discussion so far. In the interests of escaping moderation, I'd suggest that we attempt to refrain from personal responses and judgemental statements like "this or that is cowardly".
The thread was started because there's a community here and the community has a right to set its standards for acceptability. If I have a goal here, it's to speak the standards instead of leaving them unspoken until someone gets their feelings hurt. What good is it to offend people to the point that they stop participating?
I disagree with the proposition that you're only entitled to critique things if you've paid your dues, but that's a side-bar to the question of whether critique is appropriate at all.
If this were an art forum where critique is expected, then I'd say it's fine. But this is a section in a game forum where people show off art they've done or had done. So I generally try to be encouraging, and follow the "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything" mode.
Sometimes people will ask for suggestions, in which case it's open to critique. But otherwise it's best to just look and move along...
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I posted this elsewhere (MMOART thread), but perhaps the comments are more relevant here;
I'm never offended when someone critiques me. There isn't a 'blanket rule' here that says you can't offer your opinion. If you wanna critique a piece, I say go right ahead. This is a forum, after all.
You have the right to critique. I have the right to take or ignore your comments. It's all good. 
As an artist should distance themselves from a critique and not take it personally (Although it's hard not to, when art is so personal) so should someone giving a critique not get upset when the artist disagrees or ignores them 
*heh* I think that sort of critic falls under the category that Slavedawg took exception to.
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While this is an emotionally charged issue in several respects, it's been a useful discussion so far. In the interests of escaping moderation, I'd suggest that we attempt to refrain from personal responses and judgemental statements like "this or that is cowardly".
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your oponion that this thread has been useful is not universelly shared I see it as a rather unuseful thread that we actually went over some time ago , I see your unasked for critiques to be on the verge of trolling and I guess i'll just get in the habit of regularly reporting them as such .
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The thread was started because there's a community here and the community has a right to set its standards for acceptability. If I have a goal here, it's to speak the standards instead of leaving them unspoken until someone gets their feelings hurt. What good is it to offend people to the point that they stop participating?
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It seems more like a well worded attempt to stir up arguments , since it would really only take a post to ask someone if they did or did not want your critique
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I disagree with the proposition that you're only entitled to critique things if you've paid your dues, but that's a side-bar to the question of whether critique is appropriate at all.
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you can critique all you want , I on the other hand have no intrest in listening to self important windbags attempting to tell me what I should and shouldn't do with my piece of paper the same way im unlikely to listen to self important windbags tell me how to play City of Heroes .
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And if someone PAID you to do a piece? Then you damn well BETTER listen to what people have to say... or do you want to be known as someone who charges fees for work that could be better?
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I have to comment on this. No, if you are getting paid to do a piece, there is only ONE person (or client) that you have to listen to. NO ONE ELSE.
I have personally seen many cases where a commissioner requests something, the artist does it and even in some cases doesn't even -agree- with something about a piece, but the commissioner likes it. That is all that matters with a commission. The client. Period. No one else.
Now, that being said, an artist might want to listen to comments about a piece, in order to improve -in the future-. But it's likely that the commissioner already likes that artist's work, enough to pay them and be happy with what they get.
Sorry just had to throw in my two cents.
Shame on all of you for bring this mess into the art forum. It's tainted now with hate and not the good kind either.
Well.... could be worse. could be anti-catgirl hate 
*showers the forum with cookies and delicious cake*
I'm scratching my head to see the hate, but clearly I started this thread assuming I was one of the offenders. *shrug*
I apologize to Turbo-Ski and Scarf-girl as well as anyone else I've personally offended. If that's not sufficient, well, I guess it'll have to be insufficient.
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I'm scratching my head to see the hate, but clearly I started this thread assuming I was one of the offenders. *shrug*
I apologize to Turbo-Ski and Scarf-girl as well as anyone else I've personally offended. If that's not sufficient, well, I guess it'll have to be insufficient.
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I only accept apologies in giftart form.
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I'm scratching my head to see the hate, but clearly I started this thread assuming I was one of the offenders. *shrug*
I apologize to Turbo-Ski and Scarf-girl as well as anyone else I've personally offended. If that's not sufficient, well, I guess it'll have to be insufficient.
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Gee thats real big of you sport , its awful nice of you to wander into the forums and start kicking peoples sand castles down as your one and only contribution to the art forums .
I've rewritten my response, but here it is in a nutshell.
If at all possible please don't quote something I said in another thread, and turn it into a new thread.
Thank you.
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Gee thats real big of you sport , its awful nice of you to wander into the forums and start kicking peoples sand castles down as your one and only contribution to the art forums .
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Oddly, the owners of those sand castles are not the ones making a fuss. I don't think it's because they're afraid of me and need someone to protect them.
Accepting for the moment the supposition that I AM in fact, a pretentious windbag, what's a good way to prevent someone like me from disrupting the community in the future? Scarf-girl says this sort of thing has been hashed out before, but I can't see any way for a new visitor to know that. Expecting new visitors to "just know" or "be reasonable" may not be the best course of action when there are differing values for what's considered reasonable.
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Personally, as someone with no capacity to create art (and thus am left with mostly critique when surfing through this particular board. HAHAhaaa. Surfboard), I try to gauge things specifically on whether or not the artist is even asking for critique.
[/ QUOTE ]
ding ding ding ding
If I ask, I want it. For example...
'something is bugging me about the figure in this piece, but I can't quite put my finger on it. What do you guys think?'
But if I'm posting up a pic (especially a paid commission), I would hope that if someone is making negative comments about it, they'd take it to a PM. Because, if someone truely has critique and help in mind, they don't need to gloat all over the boards bashing art... a polite whisper will do.