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I know you see the game as "all inlcusive" of everything in its current form (at least that's what I am getting) but most see Neo and Drizzt as a bit of an intrusion on the classic comic book genre. Hey, Elfquest was a comic book - see what happens if you add its content to this game. 
It's discarding the genre, and that upsets a lot of people.
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A nitpick: People perceive it (incorrectly, IMHO) as "discarding the genre".
Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO? (Is that even still operating?) Can't the guy in the trenchcoat be The Question? Or any number of other superhero comic characters who wear trenchcoats either in their civilian or heroic roles? Why can't the woman with dual blades be Elektra, since twin sai is an option? Catgirls are anime now? What about Cheetah or Catwoman?
My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place. Even in the major titles, there's plenty of magic, magical creatures, anthropomorphs, and what-have-you in the canon. Conversely, if you start trying to argue that some powersets are "obviously" fantasy, you need to be prepared to explain why the others aren't. (Earth Control? Pfft. Obviously a druid/shaman/whatever. Dark Blast? Get that Warlock outta here!)
Hey, maybe I'm biased. In real life, I'm a dual-blade wielder. Maybe I ought to check the shape of my ears again.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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I know you see the game as "all inlcusive" of everything in its current form (at least that's what I am getting) but most see Neo and Drizzt as a bit of an intrusion on the classic comic book genre. Hey, Elfquest was a comic book - see what happens if you add its content to this game. It's discarding the genre, and that upsets a lot of people.
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A nitpick: People perceive it (incorrectly, IMHO) as "discarding the genre".
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Actually, you are entirely correct - what it is is including every far-flung element of the genre with disregard to frequency of occurence in the original medium. Though in some cases it is discarding the original western comics approach, it stay true to comics in a general sense.
But this comes back to other genres: Being "all inclusive" in almost any genre would see a mish mash of elements which lacked cohesion and specific theme.
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Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO?
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Those were cited as examples of character homages, not indications that everyone who wears a costume piece resembling them is a recreation of that character. I'm speaking of actual Drzzzts, Drz5zt, Drzts, Driizs, Dr1zzts, etc. (And my favorite but short-lived hommage I encountered on Triumph: "SuperN3o". His bio alone was worth the roll.)
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My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place.
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If one considers the genre as a uniform while, yes, but it is not - as I said before, using this logic one can also say about other MMOs, "This is a fantasy MMO, and therefore no element of fantasy should be out of place."
No one, I don't think, can really say that is a true statement: Elf Quest meets Forgotten Realms meets Cimeria? I think the sound of the fan's vomitting would be the most impressive sound FX of all.
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Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO?
[/ QUOTE ]
Those were cited as examples of character homages, not indications that everyone who wears a costume piece resembling them is a recreation of that character. I'm speaking of actual Drzzzts, Drz5zt, Drzts, Driizs, Dr1zzts, etc. (And my favorite but short-lived hommage I encountered on Triumph: "SuperN3o". His bio alone was worth the roll.)
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I didn't intend to pick on your examples, honestly--I was just picking things people had complained about and offered counterexamples. Clones annoy me.
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My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place.
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If one considers the genre as a uniform while, yes, but it is not - as I said before, using this logic one can also say about other MMOs, "This is a fantasy MMO, and therefore no element of fantasy should be out of place."
No one, I don't think, can really say that is a true statement: Elf Quest meets Forgotten Realms meets Cimeria? I think the sound of the fan's vomitting would be the most impressive sound FX of all.
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Yet each of those is a fantasy setting, not the fantasy genre as a whole. Introducing Forgotten Realms elements into Cimmeria (or Warcraft, for that matter) is an obvious conflict: It doesn't fit the setting, even though the various settings belong to the same genre.
In the case of City, we're talking about a setting based on the comic-book superhero genre. (Sorry, Sam, but we are.) Paragon-Earth is analogous to DC-Earth. Paragon City is analogous to, say, Metropolis, but with a much higher metahuman/super density. What sort of things have turned up in Metropolis? Garden-variety thugs, anthropomorphs, mutants, super-scientists, immortals, aliens, dimensional travelers, time-travelers, psychics, ancient sorcerers, young witches, Atlanteans, evil cults, gods, demons, androids, assassins, bounty hunters, psycho anti-heroes...well, I could go on (and usually do), but is it really necessary? A single setting in the genre encompasses the level of variety we're talking about, unlike the fantasy settings you reference.
On top of that, Paragon City and the Rogue Isles are like forcing grounds for the weird. They have the highest concentration of supers on Paragon-Earth, plus portals to a bunch of other dimensions with their own arrays of supers. Given that, you'd expect to see even more variety in Paragon City than you would in Metropolis.
That's not to say that people can't create completely setting-breaking characters with the new powersets. They undoubtedly will, and those of us who love continuity will grit our teeth and try to ignore them--just as we ignored the Legolas clones and any number of others. The fact that people make characters that don't fit the setting doesn't prevent us from using the same tools to make characters that do belong in Paragon City.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Neo wore a trenchcoat, therefore everyone who wears a trenchcoat is Neo, and belongs in the Matrix MMO? Drizzt Do'Urden wielded dual blades, therefore everyone with two blades is a D&D character and should go play DDO?
[/ QUOTE ]
Those were cited as examples of character homages, not indications that everyone who wears a costume piece resembling them is a recreation of that character. I'm speaking of actual Drzzzts, Drz5zt, Drzts, Driizs, Dr1zzts, etc. (And my favorite but short-lived hommage I encountered on Triumph: "SuperN3o". His bio alone was worth the roll.)
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I didn't intend to pick on your examples, honestly--I was just picking things people had complained about and offered counterexamples. Clones annoy me.
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My point is that the superhero genre is itself so broad that almost no power or fighting ability is really out of place.
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If one considers the genre as a uniform while, yes, but it is not - as I said before, using this logic one can also say about other MMOs, "This is a fantasy MMO, and therefore no element of fantasy should be out of place."
No one, I don't think, can really say that is a true statement: Elf Quest meets Forgotten Realms meets Cimeria? I think the sound of the fan's vomitting would be the most impressive sound FX of all.
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Yet each of those is a fantasy setting, not the fantasy genre as a whole.
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
We're speaking of the exact same thing. I am decrying it progression here for the same reason I would in a fantasy setting. Just because comics are more modern in their setting and can incorporate more elements of tech, fantasy, what have you, without straying from the look and feel of comics in general, doesn't eleminate the very clear boundaries between various elements of comics.
To sum up my position:
Just because it's been found, at some point in time, on a page in a mag that was illustrated, doesn't mean it necessarily fits into the espoused flavor of this game.
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That's not to say that people can't create completely setting-breaking characters with the new powersets. They undoubtedly will, and those of us who love continuity will grit our teeth and try to ignore them--just as we ignored the Legolas clones and any number of others. The fact that people make characters that don't fit the setting doesn't prevent us from using the same tools to make characters that do belong in Paragon City
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I really care more about the consistency of the setting than I do what people do within it.
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See I can't blame people at all for that. This is the one and only comic book themed MMO on the market, and this is a primary reason for play to many. Seeing them want to maintain that theme is no surprise to me at all, even to the point of aggression- I wouldn't support being rabid about it, but when gamers like a game due to theme, seeing others push to move their primary reason for being here off the map can be disconcerting, or at least move one to say "Why not go play a game which features that instead of trying to change the one we enjoy?"
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Yet that didn't lend me any credence when I complained about raids, Inventions, Hamidon enhancements, Super Groups, CoV's corralled zones design, unlockable costume options and so on and so forth. I came to this game, as I've said before, because it was a good game with a wide variety of concepts. It was simple, it was straightforward and it was good. Just about every other thing that's added to it either makes it more complicated or more confusing or ends up bottling up customization which could have benefited everybody and casting it into the sees for some lucky soul to find.
I've gotten over all of that, of course. The thing, though, is that every time I've complained about it, someone's appeared out of the ether to tell me that I should probably shut up and that no-body cares. I've seen the game move so very far from what it was that brought me here to begin with, yet that's never seemed to give me much of any credit. On the flip side, here I am now, championing a feature that I like but seems to be somewhat moving away from "the genre" and suddenly people who came for the genre now have a lot of credit because they were here first.
It's one-sided, that's what bugs me so much. When the game system is being changed to something else and I complain, who cares? When the game's genre is being changed to something else and other people complain, suddenly they have every right to. And that bugs me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And Sam, it's totally crazy to claim this game was concieved and promoted as anything but an homage to four color comics in the Western tradition. It's clear they don't want to alienate fans of other genres, but the game was never promoted as a nebulous 'choose your own adventure' GURPS system. It's always been marketed as a SUPERHERO game.
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I never "claimed" anything. I merely stated my understanding of the situation. I'm not doubting anyone, I just want to see an official source that says what you guys are saying. That's not mistrust, that's simple logic. I believe something, you tell me something else and I just want to see something official. The way I figure it, if this really IS the official standpoint, then records of that shouldn't be hard to find. That I can't find them is probably my lack of searching skills, but asking for an official source in general should not be a big problem.
Why am I asking for this? Because we all seem to be quoting each other and quoting our idea of what this or that should be. But I've seen official standpoints misquoted and those misquotes perpetuated through group memory, so I've been conditioned to be sceptic of facts that are widely-known. If it's widely-known, then finding something official on it shouldn't be hard, right?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
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Well...no, they're not. They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre. Naruto, for example, has a very different setting and rules from, say, InuYasha. Both are wildly different from mecha-oriented manga. One pulp story might be set in a hollow-Earth, while the next is in a jungle on a non-hollow Earth. Jughead doesn't fit into Paragon City any more (or less) than he would in Metropolis--he's largely irrelevant to either.
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To sum up my position:
Just because it's been found, at some point in time, on a page in a mag that was illustrated, doesn't mean it necessarily fits into the espoused flavor of this game.
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Nor is that what I am arguing. I'm arguing that anything that has appeared or could reasonably appear in a setting in the super-hero genre is fair game. The fact that some elements that can plausibly appear in a superhero setting can also appear in settings in other genres is irrelevant. What makes the things you object to implausible for the CoX setting?
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I really care more about the consistency of the setting than I do what people do within it.
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You've lost me completely here. What kind of powerset could possibly break the internal consistency of the setting? I suppose if the devs intrinsically tied a specific background to a powerset (like they did to the Kheldian AT) that directly contradicted game canon, it could do that. It's very easy for player to break the internal consistency, just by writing an inconsistent background, but you say that isn't what's bothering you.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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I never "claimed" anything. I merely stated my understanding of the situation. I'm not doubting anyone, I just want to see an official source that says what you guys are saying. That's not mistrust, that's simple logic.
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CoH Press Release from 2001:
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Cryptic Studios proudly announces City of Heroes, a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game that's home to an entire universe of super powered, comic book style adventure. Here you and thousands of other players can create your own superheroes and discover all the dangers, wonders, and excitement that Paragon City has to offer.
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"With City of Heroes we're bringing a new and exciting genre to online gaming: the world of superheroes," says lead designer Richard Dakan. "We've designed this game to not only capture the excitement of comic book heroes but to offer a unique gaming experience. With this game you can literally 'become your own hero.' Players can not only design their very own superheroes from the ground up, but they can have a direct impact on what happens to the city they live in."
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The focus of the game is crystal clear, and has been from day one.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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See I can't blame people at all for that. This is the one and only comic book themed MMO on the market, and this is a primary reason for play to many. Seeing them want to maintain that theme is no surprise to me at all, even to the point of aggression- I wouldn't support being rabid about it, but when gamers like a game due to theme, seeing others push to move their primary reason for being here off the map can be disconcerting, or at least move one to say "Why not go play a game which features that instead of trying to change the one we enjoy?"
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Yet that didn't lend me any credence when I complained about raids, Inventions, Hamidon enhancements, Super Groups, CoV's corralled zones design, unlockable costume options and so on and so forth. I came to this game, as I've said before, because it was a good game with a wide variety of concepts. It was simple, it was straightforward and it was good. Just about every other thing that's added to it either makes it more complicated or more confusing or ends up bottling up customization which could have benefited everybody and casting it into the sees for some lucky soul to find.
I've gotten over all of that, of course. The thing, though, is that every time I've complained about it, someone's appeared out of the ether to tell me that I should probably shut up and that no-body cares. I've seen the game move so very far from what it was that brought me here to begin with, yet that's never seemed to give me much of any credit. On the flip side, here I am now, championing a feature that I like but seems to be somewhat moving away from "the genre" and suddenly people who came for the genre now have a lot of credit because they were here first.
It's one-sided, that's what bugs me so much. When the game system is being changed to something else and I complain, who cares? When the game's genre is being changed to something else and other people complain, suddenly they have every right to. And that bugs me.
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This is how everyone is treated on forums, Sam. So at least it's a universal "unfairness". Not just you.
"Credence" on a forum, is all too often something you sieze, not something others give you. If you're waiting on it to be given, you'll be waiting a while unless the other posters are all adults.
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Yet that didn't lend me any credence when I complained about raids, Inventions, Hamidon enhancements, Super Groups, CoV's corralled zones design, unlockable costume options and so on and so forth. I came to this game, as I've said before, because it was a good game with a wide variety of concepts. It was simple, it was straightforward and it was good. Just about every other thing that's added to it either makes it more complicated or more confusing or ends up bottling up customization which could have benefited everybody and casting it into the sees for some lucky soul to find.
I've gotten over all of that, of course. The thing, though, is that every time I've complained about it, someone's appeared out of the ether to tell me that I should probably shut up and that no-body cares. I've seen the game move so very far from what it was that brought me here to begin with, yet that's never seemed to give me much of any credit. On the flip side, here I am now, championing a feature that I like but seems to be somewhat moving away from "the genre" and suddenly people who came for the genre now have a lot of credit because they were here first.
It's one-sided, that's what bugs me so much. When the game system is being changed to something else and I complain, who cares? When the game's genre is being changed to something else and other people complain, suddenly they have every right to. And that bugs me.
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I care, Sam. I care.
(Especially that bit regarding the cattle chute that is the rogue islands. That one is stuck in my craw these days. Need to get a waterpik or something to clean it out. Might be below the gumline, dammit!)
**We now return you to this thread's originally programmed slug-fest**
Edit: fixed quote to be the correct reference post! 
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
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Well...no, they're not. They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre.
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That's exacly the same situation as fantasy settings, mate. Each has a distinct style, flavor, etc.. To lump them all together under a generic whole is to discard individual theme in the face of a universal label.
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
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Well...no, they're not. They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre.
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That's exacly the same situation as fantasy settings, mate. Each has a distinct style, flavor, etc.. To lump them all together under a generic whole is to discard individual theme in the face of a universal label. Genre describes the whole, with both subjects, yet each contains thematic microcosms which differ entirely from one another. They don't all belong in the same book/game/media. Fantasy or Comic Book, neither can be encompassed in its whole in one design.
Same with any genre. Action movies, comedy, drama. A "Midsummer Nights Dream" is not a "Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy", despite being in the same genre.
I can't think of a single genre that could be encapsulated in one graphic setting and still maintain a thematic whole.
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
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Well...no, they're not. They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre.
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That's exacly the same situation as fantasy settings, mate. Each has a distinct style, flavor, etc.. To lump them all together under a generic whole is to discard individual theme in the face of a universal label. Genre describes the whole, with both subjects, yet each contains thematic microcosms which differ entirely from one another. They don't all belong in the same book/game/media. Fantasy or Comic Book, neither can be encompassed in its whole in one design.
Same with any genre. Action movies, comedy, drama. A "Midsummer Nights Dream" is not a "Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy", despite being in the same genre.
I can't think of a single genre that could be encapsulated in one graphic setting and still maintain a thematic whole.
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I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. You still seem to be conflating settings with genres, and now have added individual books within a setting to the mix. Are you trying to suggest that because there are multiple comics with distinctive elements set in the DC universe (for example), it is not a single setting? Yes, it's distinct from other settings in the same genre--you wouldn't generally expect the Silver Surfer to show up in Metropolis--but it shares a great many elements, especially characters with similar powers.
To reiterate: My contention is that a single superhero setting can reasonably contain all of the powersets, costumes, and other elements currently available to us in the CoX game engine, as well as a vast array of still more disparate elements, including some which also appear in other genres.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
That would be as conclusive as it gets, Nether. I stand corrected.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This is how everyone is treated on forums, Sam. So at least it's a universal "unfairness". Not just you.
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To be fair, I have a tendency to be melodramatic 
So that "they're all against me" sentiment came off a bit more... Sentimental than it was intended. I not so much trying to victimize myself here as to point out that arguments can sometimes be rather one-sided. Complaining that the game is changing on you is OK sometimes but not OK at other times, and all it really depends on is how he who writes and he who reads feel at that particular time. In general, I try to avoid "just because" justifications for making and maintaining arguments, as those are rather inconsistent, so moving away from a perceived goal was not something I wanted to acknowledge.
As Nether points out, however, this goal is altogether too real and not quite as perceived as I had grown to believe, so I'm much more inclined to accept it now than I was before. I'm still not quite prepared to like it, but them's the breaks.
On the note of a specific genre, I'd like to give you a bit of background. Of all the strategy games I've ever played, the one I've liked the most by far and wide has been Empire Earth. Of course, it would have been a much more successful game if it were... You know, a good game, rather than an Age of Empires knockoff at first and then a Rise of Nations knockoff for Empire Earth 2. Now they're making a third version, so fingers crossed.
What this game had going for it, however, was the fact that it spanned from the early stone age to the distant future, starting with stone caves and twig huts and ending with space travel, towering mechs, tanks and robots. The works, as they say. It didn't really do much of anything better than any other strategy game. Combat was fairly straightforward and the detail levels pretty far away from any kind of simulation. Just about every other strategy game from every epoch was better in some way. StarCraft, WarCraft, the C&C games, the Warhammer 40 000 games... Most everything. But not a single other game had, or even has to this day, just as much... Stuff, I suppose, as Empire Earth. Sometimes doing a lot of stuff is just as important as doing one thing good.
And that's why I like CoH so much. Oh, sure, it may not have the deep and involving crafring of EQ, the environment and background of WoW, epic items of Lineage and so forth... But it has so, so many things that whatever imperfections any one particular aspect may have are more than made up by the sheer power of the framework we exist in. To me, the more the stuff we can make in this game, don't matter where it comes from, the better the game is.
Obviously that's just my take, but it's where I'm coming from.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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And manga is not a comic setting? The graphic novel? Pulp mags, ala the 60s and 70s, wherein heroes were anything from spelunkers to... well... Rex Havoc? Teen morality comics? Would Jughead really fit into Paragon?
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Well...no, they're not. They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre.
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That's exacly the same situation as fantasy settings, mate. Each has a distinct style, flavor, etc.. To lump them all together under a generic whole is to discard individual theme in the face of a universal label. Genre describes the whole, with both subjects, yet each contains thematic microcosms which differ entirely from one another. They don't all belong in the same book/game/media. Fantasy or Comic Book, neither can be encompassed in its whole in one design.
Same with any genre. Action movies, comedy, drama. A "Midsummer Nights Dream" is not a "Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy", despite being in the same genre.
I can't think of a single genre that could be encapsulated in one graphic setting and still maintain a thematic whole.
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I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. You still seem to be conflating settings with genres
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I actually thought that's what *you* were doing:
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They have settings, certainly, but the settings are distinct within each genre.[/
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Genre refers to "comics" - manga is a subset of the comic genre. Settings occur within the different elements found within the genre, the genre itself is far too broad to be encapsulated in one "setting".
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... and now have added individual books within a setting to the mix.
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No, within a "genre" - comedy, in that case, was a "genre" of written fiction. Manga is a setting/style in comics, which are a genre of printed art or fiction, take your pick.
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Are you trying to suggest that because there are multiple comics with distinctive elements set in the DC universe (for example), it is not a single setting?
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No, multiple setting within the genre of comics: manga, Italian, British, pulp mag, etc. The DC universe would be a distinctive (western comic) setting within the genre. Having DC and Marvel mix would be odd to fans, but wouldn't hinder a western comic setting in the least.
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To reiterate: My contention is that a single superhero setting can reasonably contain all of the powersets, costumes, and other elements currently available to us in the CoX game engine, as well as a vast array of still more disparate elements, including some which also appear in other genres.
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My contention is that a "comic book superhero" MMO setting cannot incorporate all elements of the genre of "comics" and still maintain a cohesive theme.
Your speaking in specific terms of similar settings: DC, Marvel - I'm referring disparate setting within the genre: pulp mag, manga, etc.
I think they can give a nod to this stuff (shoulder pets... shudder) and, say, 3 out of 8 scrapper sets being swords (one would think swords were FAR more common in western comics based on that) - but the more is added, the more diluted the theme becomes.
Before Sam objects: This is my opinion - Sam has his and it's as valid as anyone's.
(I am sitting half-expecting that someone is eventually going to grasp the term "western comics" and start making noises about elitism in western culture, etc.)
Third time lucky
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I care, Sam. I care.
(Especially that bit regarding the cattle chute that is the rogue islands. That one is stuck in my craw these days. Need to get a waterpik or something to clean it out. Might be below the gumline, dammit!)
**We now return you to this thread's originally programmed slug-fest**
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That's actually my main gripe with CoV, above and beyond everything else. The game's evilnessnessness level is just off the charts, but not in any specific way. It's just sort of... Everywhere. I recently read an interview with War Witch about how they didn't want the Rogue Isles to be just an evil version of Paragon City. The problem is that that's just what they've ended up with.
Paragon City isn't some shining metropolis of goodness and virtue. Maybe Atlas Park is. Maybe Steel Canyon is. Maybe Founders' Falls is. But King's Row isn't. Take a trip through Independence Port and tell me how good it is. Go live in Brickstown and see if you can keep your balcony free of escaped convicts for a day. And that's before we talk about Terra Volta or Dark Astoria or Eden.
Paragon City isn't a seamlessly bright and happy place. The Rogue Isles, however, are a seamlessly depressing, run-down slum. I don't mind evil, degradation and darkness, but there's just TOO much of it in the game to where it begins to wear. And wear not because it's all so horrible, but because there's no variety.
Let's hope CoV gets some more civilized zones.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know... it's true... CoH features some dingy looks in its map zones... but CoV just seems to be overall dingy with very fre bright spots... and the few pretty spots there are tend to be infested with very mean things.
I remember enterring Nerva on my first villain and, since I was a super speeder (yeah, I did ok, had the jump pack) exploring it first... I got out to the tree area and thought "Hey, cool! This is sort of pretty in a creepy way! I wonder what's out he---OH DEAR SWEET JEEBUS ABOVE GET IT OFF ME GET IT OFF MEEEEEE***"
[ QUOTE ]
Genre refers to "comics" - manga is a subset of the comic genre. Settings occur within the different elements found within the genre, the genre itself is far too broad to be encapsulated in one "setting".
[/ QUOTE ]
I would refer to comics as a "medium", not a genre. Since this has obviously devolved into a dictionary argument, let's lay out the whole tree for DC and see what shakes out.
Medium: Illustrated fiction (comics)
--->Genre: Superhero
-------->Setting: DC Universe
Genre is distinguished by style, format, and content. I have repeatedly referred to the "superhero genre" to set this context.
[ QUOTE ]
No, within a "genre" - comedy, in that case, was a "genre" of written fiction. Manga is a setting/style in comics, which are a genre of printed art or fiction, take your pick.
[/ QUOTE ]
"Manga" is not a setting. Manga is a stylistic category, and a fairly broad one. It's not even confined to a single genre (my definition)--there's mystery manga, fantasy manga, mecha manga, and many more that I don't even know squat about. Within each of those genres, there are various settings.
[ QUOTE ]
No, multiple setting within the genre of comics: manga, Italian, British, pulp mag, etc. The DC universe would be a distinctive (western comic) setting within the genre. Having DC and Marvel mix would be odd to fans, but wouldn't hinder a western comic setting in the least.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those are not settings. The DC Universe is a setting. InuYasha's mix of modern Tokyo and feudal Japan is a setting. The Forgotten Realms are a setting (yes, there was a Realms comic book).
[ QUOTE ]
My contention is that a "comic book superhero" MMO setting cannot incorporate all elements of the genre of "comics" and still maintain a cohesive theme.
Your speaking in specific terms of similar settings: DC, Marvel - I'm referring disparate setting within the genre: pulp mag, manga, etc.
[/ QUOTE ]
If you insist on referring to everything comic-like collectively as a "genre", I can see where some themes from that superset might not necessarily fit into the CoX setting. Superhero comics draw on so many sources, however, that they already subsume a lot of the things that show up in other sorts of illustrated fiction. They may not take precisely the same form as they do in manga, pulp, or what-have-you, but they're covered. CoX, in particular, draws very heavily on mythology. Look at Croatoa--it's plagued by faerie creatures. The existence of faerie creatures suggests the existence of the Sidhe, which is to say elves. Does that suddenly make it a fantasy game? No, no more than does the canonical existence of the Greek gods (which it shares with the DC Universe). Both are perfectly consistent with the internal logic of the setting.
[ QUOTE ]
I think they can give a nod to this stuff (shoulder pets... shudder) and, say, 3 out of 8 scrapper sets being swords (one would think swords were FAR more common in western comics based on that) - but the more is added, the more diluted the theme becomes.
[/ QUOTE ]
What, exactly, is the "theme" of superhero comics? I'll take a stab at it--Superhero comics depict the lives of people with extraordinary abilities who fight nefarious evildoers in (mostly) a modern-Earth setting. How does adding new abilities dilute that?
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
This is semantics, friend, and it's not really relevant to our disagreement. Genre, originally a term only applicable to literature, can now be stretched to refer to a "group" within any subset, but I prefer a more proper usage, which is to refer to subcategories within literature. It can be said that manga is a genre of comics - to my mind, that's not proper usage, but this is english and meanings change as fast as folks can use them in new ways.
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"Manga" is not a setting. Manga is a stylistic category, and a fairly broad one.
[/ QUOTE ]
It would be an interesting dicussion to wrangle over - you're right, Manga is a style, but then when I said "setting" I was referring to the artistic environ of manga - because we were talking about a visual medium. Manga can also be referred to as a genre of comics, which in turn are a genre of illustrated art, and so on and so forth.
Interesting, but not really relevant to my feelings on the western comic flavor of the game and its being watered down over time.
[ QUOTE ]
If you insist on referring to everything comic-like collectively as a "genre",
[/ QUOTE ]
In the quote you were responding to here, I was referring to comics as a genre. Speaking properly: comics are a genre of literature. Also of printed media, in a less proper usage.
[ QUOTE ]
What, exactly, is the "theme" of superhero comics? I'll take a stab at it--Superhero comics depict the lives of people with extraordinary abilities who fight nefarious evildoers in (mostly) a modern-Earth setting. ?
[/ QUOTE ]
To see the "theme" of "superhero comics" (which I assume means western comics, as that is where the term was born) one merely needs to place them alongside manga, italian comics, and pulp mags. I don't see the point in a break down of artistic and thematic differences, I think we're all comic fans enough to know them at sight.
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I'll take a stab at it--Superhero comics depict the lives of people with extraordinary abilities who fight nefarious evildoers in (mostly) a modern-Earth setting.
[/ QUOTE ]
This discards art style, story themes, political backgrounds, moral undercurrents and a score of other flavors added to a subsection of the comic genre based on the society in which they are created. These things are key in the difference of various comic styles. Is starts with art but goes well beyond the moral themes of various culture's take on "comics".
[ QUOTE ]
How does adding new abilities dilute that
[/ QUOTE ]
Adding new abilities may not dilute that. If they do, it will be by straying from the theme the game is built around.
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that.
This has been commented on before the new sword set. It's being commented on again. Obviously, people perceive a theme in this game (I assume it's the game the game states it was built on) and some of them see Cryptic as straying from it a bit - I imagine there's a reason behind that perception.
[ QUOTE ]
It would be an interesting dicussion to wrangle over - you're right, Manga is a style, but then when I said "setting" I was referring to the artistic environ of manga - because we were talking about a visual medium. Manga can also be referred to as a genre of comics, which in turn are a genre of illustrated art, and so on and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have never seen "setting" used in this sense, nor do I readily find such a definition for it. In discussing literature, "setting" generally refers to the time and place of the action, and that is the way I have used it throughout this discussion. If you want to discuss style or artistic environs, feel free, but kindly refrain from confusing the issue by calling it "setting".
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What, exactly, is the "theme" of superhero comics? I'll take a stab at it--Superhero comics depict the lives of people with extraordinary abilities who fight nefarious evildoers in (mostly) a modern-Earth setting. ?
[/ QUOTE ]
To see the "theme" of "superhero comics" (which I assume means western comics, as that is where the term was born) one merely needs to place them alongside manga, italian comics, and pulp mags. I don't see the point in a break down of artistic and thematic differences, I think we're all comic fans enough to know them at sight.
[ QUOTE ]
I'll take a stab at it--Superhero comics depict the lives of people with extraordinary abilities who fight nefarious evildoers in (mostly) a modern-Earth setting.
[/ QUOTE ]
This discards art style, story themes, political backgrounds, moral undercurrents and a score of other flavors added to a subsection of the comic genre based on the society in which they are created. These things are key in the difference of various comic styles. Is starts with art but goes well beyond the moral themes of various culture's take on "comics".
[/ QUOTE ]
The point of discussing a theme--the essential subject or character of an artistic representation--is to address it in isolation. In an attempt to pursue this, I isolated the most fundamental subject of superhero comics--not "western comics" in general, as that incorporates the pulps and such, which have different subject matter.
If instead you prefer to discuss broad sweeps of artistic style, story, politics, and morality, so be it. How, exactly, does the introduction of new power options--drawn and animated by the same artists who set the style for the rest of the game--dilute these factors?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How does adding new abilities dilute that
[/ QUOTE ]
Adding new abilities may not dilute that. If they do, it will be by straying from the theme the game is built around.
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does the percentage have to do with anything? It doesn't even necessarily correspond with the percentage of scrappers who use swords in-game. It's a percentage of the options. Again, we come down to players making of the available options what they choose--which you said is not your primary concern. The question of how the availability of those options interferes with internal consistency remains open.
[ QUOTE ]
This has been commented on before the new sword set. It's being commented on again. Obviously, people perceive a theme in this game (I assume it's the game the game states it was built on) and some of them see Cryptic as straying from it a bit - I imagine there's a reason behind that perception.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ad populum--and without even demonstrating that the majority share that perception. Sure, there are people who claim such a perception. Some of them even claim it honestly. That does not mean the perception is correct.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
[ QUOTE ]
I have never seen "setting" used in this sense, nor do I readily find such a definition for it. In discussing literature, "setting" generally refers to the time and place of the action, and that is the way I have used it throughout this discussion. If you want to discuss style or artistic environs, feel free, but kindly refrain from confusing the issue by calling it "setting".
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't find 'setting" in refering to the style of manga or what have you as a large stretch of the language. You'll just have to work around it, I suppose.
[ QUOTE ]
The point of discussing a theme--the essential subject or character of an artistic representation--is to address it in isolation. In an attempt to pursue this, I isolated the most fundamental subject of superhero comics--not "western comics" in general, as that incorporates the pulps and such, which have different subject matter.
If instead you prefer to discuss broad sweeps of artistic style, story, politics, and morality, so be it. How, exactly, does the introduction of new power options--drawn and animated by the same artists who set the style for the rest of the game--dilute these factors?
[/ QUOTE ]
I already answered that:
[ QUOTE ]
Adding new abilities may not dilute that. If they do, it will be by straying from the theme the game is built around.
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that
[/ QUOTE ]
The "broad sweeps" you refer to were a descriptive response to your phrased encapsulation of western comics, not a comment on new powers speicifically, obviously. The general complaints I've seen seem to center around atmosphere, the artistic and atmospheric setting of the game - a pretty miasmic quality. Different for a lot of players, but then all of this is a discussion of perception and opinion on artistic issues.
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[ QUOTE ]
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does the percentage have to do with anything?
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously it affects certain player's perception of the overall flavor of the game, else we'd have no complaints.
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It doesn't even necessarily correspond with the percentage of scrappers who use swords in-game. It's a percentage of the options.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes.
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Again, we come down to players making of the available options what they choose--which you said is not your primary concern. The question of how the availability of those options interferes with internal consistency remains open.
[/ QUOTE ]
By that logic, the further addition of chisakatana, chokuto, dotanuki, hachiwara, shinken, nagamaki, o-katana and shin gunto to the game wouldn't affect the overall atmoshpere at all as they only existed in the costume designer as options. I think it's unnecessary to point out why this wouldn't be the case, or even why the current ratio still has someone disagreeing with you. It seems items within the character designer affect some player's perception of the atmosphere of the game. While I can appreciate that perhaps you think this is unwarranted, it never the less exists.
[ QUOTE ]
This has been commented on before the new sword set. It's being commented on again. Obviously, people perceive a theme in this game (I assume it's the game the game states it was built on) and some of them see Cryptic as straying from it a bit - I imagine there's a reason behind that perception.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i]Ad populum[/i]
[/ QUOTE ]
Fancy! However, an ad populum appeal refers to an individual claiming a concept as truth because many feel it. I simply state that "the perception exists", which is a forum fact as demonstrated by the existence of this and past threads discussing worries over the flavor of future items and how they would affect the game's setting. We had some great manga discussions when shoulder pets came out.
[ QUOTE ]
-and without even demonstrating that the majority share that perception
[/ QUOTE ]
I never stated "the majority share the perception" - my actuall wording is a few short eyewidths above this paragraph - check it out. I fear you're looking for a tiff that's not there. This was an interesting chat on player perception, not a grass-roots game-change movement.
[ QUOTE ]
Sure, there are people who claim such a perception. Some of them even claim it honestly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's interesting; what drove you to imply that someone is being dishonest is stating their perception of the game? What would the motivation be for such a thing? That's seems unnecessarily combative.
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That does not mean the perception is correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perceptions are, by their definition, entirely reliant on the obsever - so, naturally, people having them doesn't mean they are "correct" - why you would think that needed to be asserted is beyond me. This is a discussion, it's not a sales pitch.
No offense, but your tone seems to be growing a tad irritated - this is a discussion forum, wherein folks present their "perceptions" and discuss them - no need to drag out the debate-101 latin and try to concoct a more hostile exchange than is necessary with implications of dishonesty. I'd say we sufficiently covered our points of view in any case. Good discussion. Cheers!
[ QUOTE ]
This was my original feeling, but it went away once I found out they were adding weapon customization.
two dorky looking long swords?
lame fantasy twaddle.
Two player-choosable weapons?
neato mosquito
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually... yeah ok that is pretty cool.
If they'd been dual katanas it would have bothered me more (for design and combat reasons :P ). Also: having weapons from enemy groups in-game be usable goes to along way towards dispelling current fears about game theme dilution.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If instead you prefer to discuss broad sweeps of artistic style, story, politics, and morality, so be it. How, exactly, does the introduction of new power options--drawn and animated by the same artists who set the style for the rest of the game--dilute these factors?
[/ QUOTE ]
I already answered that:
[ QUOTE ]
Adding new abilities may not dilute that. If they do, it will be by straying from the theme the game is built around.
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that
[/ QUOTE ]
The "broad sweeps" you refer to were a descriptive response to your phrased encapsulation of western comics, not a comment on new powers speicifically, obviously. The general complaints I've seen seem to center around atmosphere, the artistic and atmospheric setting of the game - a pretty miasmic quality. Different for a lot of players, but then all of this is a discussion of perception and opinion on artistic issues.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heroes in western comics used swords. So much so that nearly 40% of scrapper primaries feature them? I dunno about that.
[/ QUOTE ]
What does the percentage have to do with anything?
[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously it affects certain player's perception of the overall flavor of the game, else we'd have no complaints.
[/ QUOTE ]
Your answer basically seems to be that it makes you uneasy, or that it affects your perception of the game. While I don't doubt that, I was hoping for something more specific. "I dunno", while not an unreasonable response, doesn't really leave us any way to explore the question in a useful manner. Why does it make you uneasy? Is it because swords seem more lethal (heh) or bloodthirsty than abilities you consider more in keeping with a superheroic theme? Is it because you associate swords with European or Asian settings, and their presence in a North American setting seems out-of-whack? Some other reason? I'm guessing here, and I understand that your reasons may not be the same as anyone else's. I just want something to work with.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Again, we come down to players making of the available options what they choose--which you said is not your primary concern. The question of how the availability of those options interferes with internal consistency remains open.
[/ QUOTE ]
By that logic, the further addition of chisakatana, chokuto, dotanuki, hachiwara, shinken, nagamaki, o-katana and shin gunto to the game wouldn't affect the overall atmoshpere at all as they only existed in the costume designer as options. I think it's unnecessary to point out why this wouldn't be the case, or even why the current ratio still has someone disagreeing with you. It seems items within the character designer affect some player's perception of the atmosphere of the game. While I can appreciate that perhaps you think this is unwarranted, it never the less exists.
[/ QUOTE ]
I honestly don't see why the addition of those items would harm the atmosphere of the game, although I can imagine them affecting it. Although traditional American superhero comics focused on the U.S., there are certainly superheroes and supervillains in other parts of the world in those settings. Why would all the supers be on one continent? It would hardly be surprising if the Yakuza in Paragon-Earth Japan, for example, were using similar techniques to those employed by the Family. Wouldn't heroes and villains from other parts of the world be inclined to use local weapons and techniques, and bring those with them when heroes from all over the world answered the call to Paragon City?
Again, just because it's Asian doesn't mean it's manga.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This has been commented on before the new sword set. It's being commented on again. Obviously, people perceive a theme in this game (I assume it's the game the game states it was built on) and some of them see Cryptic as straying from it a bit - I imagine there's a reason behind that perception.
[ QUOTE ]
Ad populum
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
Fancy! However, an ad populum appeal refers to an individual claiming a concept as truth because many feel it. I simply state that "the perception exists", which is a forum fact as demonstrated by the existence of this and past threads discussing worries over the flavor of future items and how they would affect the game's setting. We had some great manga discussions when shoulder pets came out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stating that a perception exists is not an appeal to popularity or popular belief, no. Perception, like opinion, is not disprovable. I feel that you reached just a little past that by using the existence of a particular perception to support your argument that the "reason"--presumably, the dilution of theme you're concerned with--is actually occurring.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-and without even demonstrating that the majority share that perception
[/ QUOTE ]
I never stated "the majority share the perception" - my actuall wording is a few short eyewidths above this paragraph - check it out. I fear you're looking for a tiff that's not there. This was an interesting chat on player perception, not a grass-roots game-change movement.
[/ QUOTE ]
The quoted bit was just meant to clarify that I didn't mean you were appealing to the majority, as in the classic ad populum.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure, there are people who claim such a perception. Some of them even claim it honestly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well that's interesting; what drove you to imply that someone is being dishonest is stating their perception of the game? What would the motivation be for such a thing? That's seems unnecessarily combative.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not at all. I just don't assume that everyone is arguing honestly. I prefer to account for the possibility that some of the people complaining about "dilution of theme" are simply unhappy because they didn't get what they personally want in this Issue. Dressing their plaints up in a "for the good of the game" costume would make them more palatable for their fellow forumites, many of whom are happy with the new additions.
For what it's worth, I don't impute such a motive to you. It's possible that everyone who has forwarded or supported the "dilution" argument is perfectly sincere, for that matter. I have been burned by assuming that before, however, so I mention the possibility of ulterior motives as a reminder to myself and to others.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That does not mean the perception is correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perceptions are, by their definition, entirely reliant on the obsever - so, naturally, people having them doesn't mean they are "correct" - why you would think that needed to be asserted is beyond me. This is a discussion, it's not a sales pitch.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, as I said above, I had the impression that you were trying to use the existence of a perception to support an assertion, and I wanted to address it plainly.
[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but your tone seems to be growing a tad irritated - this is a discussion forum, wherein folks present their "perceptions" and discuss them - no need to drag out the debate-101 latin and try to concoct a more hostile exchange than is necessary with implications of dishonesty. I'd say we sufficiently covered our points of view in any case. Good discussion. Cheers!
[/ QUOTE ]
No offense taken, and none meant either. I'm accustomed to debates with--shall we say--very precise and detail-oriented posters on another forum. (Okay, so they're completely anal nitpickers. ) I've developed the habit of nailing down every piece of my post that I can in self-defense, even if it seems like I'm stating the obvious.
Sorry if it comes across a bit harsh. I'm trying to play nice, really.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's more simply just a complaint that dual blades are a continued sign of a mish-mash direction in the game and is inspiring some voiced objections. Some folks don't like the implications.
[/ QUOTE ]
This was my original feeling, but it went away once I found out they were adding weapon customization.
two dorky looking long swords?
lame fantasy twaddle.
Two player-choosable weapons?
neato mosquito.
And Sam, it's totally crazy to claim this game was concieved and promoted as anything but an homage to four color comics in the Western tradition. It's clear they don't want to alienate fans of other genres, but the game was never promoted as a nebulous 'choose your own adventure' GURPS system. It's always been marketed as a SUPERHERO game.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone