Discussion: Business Success and Gaming Skills
By
Adam_Alpha,
Posted on: 2007-07-03 11:59 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Sweet.
Adds "Plays incessant hours of CoH" to resume.
Meh. I have a difficult time with this.
Granted, you have the chance to learn said skills in a GAME... but by no means does a game teach you how to utilize said skills.
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Meh. I have a difficult time with this.
Granted, you have the chance to learn said skills in a GAME... but by no means does a game teach you how to utilize said skills.
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You can give an elf a fish, but teach an elf to fish and he's fed for life?
...I forgot what experience means.
Unless he gets Ganked while fishing 
Waitaminute. I recall a study a while ago that applied the tests often used to identify "sociopaths" and found that many CEO's have similar characteristics.
:looks at typical gamer forum.
:looks at the sociopath index.
:looks at the state of corporate america.
:looks at sociopath index.
:looks at gamer forum again.
Are we sure this conditioning is a good thing?
Wasn't there also a story on the news recently about how gaming could be a "mental disorder" or something?
An abstract concept for abstract positions. If you are looking for leadership skills in a game, you are really diminishing the idea of true leadership. If you want leaders, look to the armed forces, we learn to be good leaders by learning to be good followers. How many gamers can say they are good at taking orders?
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Oh please, I've played with some "hardcore gamers" before, they're quite disturbing people. They get rude over games, take games entirely too seriously, don't have the brainpower to pour a glass of water, panic in real life social situations, and often smell very bad along-side being poorly groomed individuals.
World of Warcraft is a cesspool of stupid and I know that's what this 'study' will be focusing on.
Interesting study. Worth reading the actual PDF not just the article.
I am no surprised about the results. Any group activity that is goal oriented will warrant some kind of leadership skills wether team sports , industry or even war. MMO`s are definitly goal oriented group activity and ad such qualify as leadership opportunities.
I am looking foward however to seeing more studies of that type. Online games are want it or not now part of the modern culture and as such change us in interesting and unexpected ways.
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Hehe...I love these kinds of topics.
When I'm not actually playing CoX I'm the director of Learning & Organizational Development for the largest company of its kind in the Great White North. The very soul of my work is leadership development.
Bottom line is that there is a great deal skill which can be learned and developed playing MMORPGs. Leadership, people management, planning & organizing, dealing with others, role execution, communication, anticipation, to name only a few. Consider one of the things that makes a good Tank great: communication. They say all kinds of things about what they're doing, where they're going, what their status is, etc etc. They say those things not expecting a response but simply to inform the team. That kind of proactive communication is great...and you sure notice it when its not there. In my world, cloning that behaviour would be fantastic. I could continue for pages coming up with similar examples.
To see a company like IBM take it seriously certainly is exciting news because it helps to help lighten some of the stigma associated with being a gamer. I'm sure where I'm not the only professional manager out there who is discrete about their gaming passion.
Also, there's some real interesting benefits from adult learning point of view as well. Ultimately, the game is a simulation, but the skills which are demonstrated are real and significant. Furthermore, those skills can be exercised in a safe environment where you can change and modify your approach on the fly. You can experiment with your leadership style. You can play.
There are a few reservations I have...well...more than a few. Chiefly, though, my opinion is that in order to make it work...it must be reflexive learning. Given some thought and attention, MMORPGs activity could be put into an experiential learning framework.
However, I would also argue that there are a *lot* of other effective ways to develop leadership skills...so I'm actually more interested in the questions about how MMORPGs compare to other leadership development opportunities.
I'd also comment on Anti-Proton's reply. I get these sense you are a military man/woman yourself. I, too, have admiration for how the armed forces develops leadership skills. As a former naval officer, I'm familiar with the process. And, while I agree they do many things well, they are also masters at replicating dysfunction. It would be unfair to describe modern military leadership as being a purely command and control environment...but it is still the dominant modus operandi for military leaders. It is a style of leadership which is appropriate for certain organizational cultures and contexts. It is also why so many former military leaders meet with disaster when they attempt to demonstrate their leadership skills in more traditional corporate environments. In fact, I think we can both think of examples of how the military cheapens leadership all on its own. If we follow the logic of your statement about gamer's inability or unwillingness to follow orders...a leader of gamers must use some pretty sophisticated skills in order to lead...they aren't equipped with the crutch of organizational position. People follow...because they want to. Personally, I can't think of a much better endorsement...
Find and develop leadership skills where you can find them.
Just my .02 in passing....
______________________
Nice post Eltanin, thanks for sharing your experience and perspective with us! 
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.
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Waitaminute. I recall a study a while ago that applied the tests often used to identify "sociopaths" and found that many CEO's have similar characteristics.
:looks at typical gamer forum.
:looks at the sociopath index.
:looks at the state of corporate america.
:looks at sociopath index.
:looks at gamer forum again.
Are we sure this conditioning is a good thing?
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<twitch>
Carp... he's onto us.
Break out the red herrings.
Be well, people of CoH.
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[ QUOTE ]
Waitaminute. I recall a study a while ago that applied the tests often used to identify "sociopaths" and found that many CEO's have similar characteristics.
:looks at typical gamer forum.
:looks at the sociopath index.
:looks at the state of corporate america.
:looks at sociopath index.
:looks at gamer forum again.
Are we sure this conditioning is a good thing?
[/ QUOTE ]
<twitch>
Carp... he's onto us.
Break out the red herrings.
[/ QUOTE ]
But all we have is some smelt.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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There are a few reservations I have...well...more than a few. Chiefly, though, my opinion is that in order to make it work...it must be reflexive learning. Given some thought and attention, MMORPGs activity could be put into an experiential learning framework.
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Sounds good to me. Forcing people to play MMO's to develop leadership skills would be a sad thing. Using it as a source for tons of leadership examples with people already playing MMO games would be a winner, though. Now if only we could get the leadership trainers to play more MMO's so they can actually help point out examples....
Yep, Eltanin, you need to get with Cryptic and/or NCSoft and get a fancy and extremely expensive leadership training course together. And you better do it fast. You know those Bliz Zu's _Art of Warcraft_ books are bound to come out in a few years and take over the market.
<QR>
I skimmed the .pdf and was immediately put off by the following paragraph:
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One hundred million Americans played a computer or video game last week, with varying but generally high levels of excitement and focus. Some play was simple shooting, racing or turning cards, and much of it appealed to adolescent boys. But thats not the important story about games and the enterprise. An increasingly large portion of play is complex, strategic, and gender balanced. The average age for online multiplayer games is 30, the average time spent per week is 22 hours, and 7.5M people currently play one title World of Warcraft.
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1) Was it really so hard to find out approximately how many US citizens play MMOs / the size of the market? Saying "100 million played games last week" up front is fine, but they should have cut that down further to say either "X million play MMOs" or "the exact proportion who play MMOs is unknown" rather than trying to pass off on the larger figure.
2) 7.5 million (or whatever) gamers play WoW WORLDWIDE. The US playerbase is meant to be closer to 1 million. That paragraph - meant to tell us how widespread or important MMO gaming is - seems to be passing off the 7.5 million figure as if that was US players alone.
Sloppy work.
As for the rest of it - yeah, fine. It reminds me of articles about how playing PnP RPGs improves your imagination, social skills and mathematics ability. For some people, sure it does. But it's hardly a guaranteed success story, given with who you can meet whenever you enter your local nerd shop.
I'll see your piece on Gamers as Business leaders, and raise you
Slate's recent piece on Educational games.
I think it's relevant because the piece somewhat lambasts Seriosity, the same company mentioned in the other article. It raises the most excellent point that unless the game is done such that what you're learning is fun, it's worse than useless as skill building.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
I response to Eltanin; Well said my man, well said. In an ideal world the organization put forth by the military SHOULD lead to a veritable leadership-factory, but sadly this isn't the case in many instances. But I stand to my conviction that if any institution is a catalyst for the development of leadership skills, then it's the military. But as you said, we should take it and nurture it wherever we find it.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
I just finished a class on teamwork. The first assignment was a questionnaire assessing past team experiences. Since I find the subject inherently dull, I decided to liven things up for myself and looked to my experiences with PuGs in CoX for my answers. I was stunned to realize how much applicable knowledge I've absorbed just by observing the differences between effective and ineffective teams. Got a 100 on that paper.
I'd say there's definitely a lot that can be learned about both leadership and collaboration from MMOs, especially one like CoX where the flexibility of the gameplay and diversity of playstyles and builds encourages the development of new strategies for each group of heroes or villains (or both).
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But I stand to my conviction that if any institution is a catalyst for the development of leadership skills, then it's the military.
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Certain types of leadership skills, yes. Other kinds, not so much. Different people and different situations require very different types of leaders. (Of course, that's not to say somebody from the military can't learn other management techniques.)
I really like the what the Slate argument has to say. At the end of the day, what it's really saying is "employees aren't morons" and can sniff out management BS like nobody's business. Business games, simply put, are about getting more out of you as an employee. Skill development is first, and if its fun...well...fun is optional. From a social theory perspective, the use of computer games to develop business competencies is really rather complex. I won't get into a dissertation on the whole thing...but it's not unlike putting child care and workout facilities in office buildings. It's not done because companies *like* you. They do it because they will get more *work* out of you. If it appears you're liked...that's gravy. Now sure I'm sounding a bit cynical and to a degree I am, there are management teams who genuinely care about their employees...but the balance sheet justification for quality of life improvements are made with productivity arguments...not compassion.
It really is counter-intuitive...but I believe it works. Make games fun. Learning will be the tertiary benefit. Rather than learn/have fun...make it fun/learn.
The other things about these business computer games is that they are terribly insulting to anyone over the age of 6. The ice cream scooping game the author describes in the slate piece is just such an example. That's not learning...that's a condescending chore. These kinds of activities insult not only employees but my profession as a whole.
But...what if you had an ice-cream shop in an MMO space? Your ability to operate the business effectively and efficiently generates capital for you to expand your business or branch off into other business. Perhaps you grow do dominate your competitive landscape...driving other players out of business or making hard fought acquisitions...and kind of Ice-Cream PVP! The game is not about ice-cream...it's about efficiency and market domination. Sounds a lot more interesting to me. Oh...and by the way, you actually learn about how to operate a business effectively in a competitive environment. Not a bad side benefit.
Think that sounds absurd. Sure...but then I remember all the money people began making in games like UO and EQ, selling accounts, equipment, land and housing. I think about the bane of gold farming...we may not like it...and plenty of reasons to dispise it...but hey...that's capitalism. Heck, I can think of "games" out there where you're entire MMO success can be based almost entirely on your ability engage the economy...forget all the other "stuff" there is to do.
Business games on the whole...are "teh suck". Do I think there is potential: yes.
And lastly, because I really have a burr in my blanket thinking about it now. There is a really sick assumption out there that learning doesn't happen unless learning was built into the design. What a load of crap. Learning happens...all the time...inside and outside classrooms, on job sites, between experienced and inexperienced workers, in your home, all the time. What these learning business companies do is legitimize their products and commodify "their" learning. What they do is prioritize and privilege some kinds of learning over other kinds.
Your learning matters and has value. And if you get it playing MMOs...it matters.
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I think it's a shame that the article didn't mention some of the good games that foster learning out there, in particular a lot of the Sim games by Will Wright. Sim City taught me a lot about the basics of design, and it inspired me to look at other books that taught me more. And all at the same time, it was fun.
The thing is, those kinds of games are lightning in a bottle, and the skills they end up inspiring are general versus specific. That's the big divide between the business games mentioned and the really good learning games. Since they have the interests of the business at heart, they tend to have specific teaching goals, and that doesn't seem to work well at all.
Games seem great for learning about systems and generalized knowledge. When you get into specific benchmarks, they cross that line into boring or next to useless.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
Eltanin, you just made two of the most impressive forum posts I've seen in a long time. You're awesome.
While boasting accomplishments in a game from your endless hours lived online may showcase your leadership skills, it also shows your inability to time manage. Lol.
Side note: I know this isn't referencing only people who play day in and day out. Just thought I'd throw that out there for people using these kinds of articles as justification for playing all the time.
Great posts Eltanin. Very engaging and thought-provoking.
Please use this thread to discuss the following news article:
GameDaily is reporting on a new study done by IBM and Seriosity. From their coverage:
The leaders of tomorrow may be the hardcore gamers of today, especially players of MMORPGs. IBM has teamed with Seriosity on a new study, which found that many of the skills developed from playing online are similar to those needed for corporate leadership roles.
You can read the GameDailyBiz report here.
And you can see the entire 34-page report here (PDF).
Lighthouse
Community Relations Manager
If you have a specific in game, account, tech or billing problem please contact our Customer Support team via The Knowledge Base "Ask A Question" page.