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But the fact that most games are being build with PvP in mind doesn't prove anything. How many of these games have no PvE content? How many successful MMOs can you name that have no PvE content at all? So... is it right to conclude that all these games (including WoW) owe their success to PvE? Well, apparently!
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Fury will have no PvE content and in WHO you can level and get gear completely via PvP. Now, both of these games are still in development/testing and so haven't yet demonstrated success. However, arguably the entire FPS/RTS online community is a pure PvP experience and still attracts more gamers than all of the MMO's combined.
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I don't know what Fury is. As for WAR (or WHO, if you prefere), that's kinda my point. Optional. And that's one game heavily slated for PvP anyway. And still it will have plenty PvE content as well that you can do if you want.
When I think of a game without any PvE at all, I kinda think WoW, but with only the battlegrounds. Or CoH/V, but only the arena. They don't sound like huge games to me 
As for FPS/RTSs, that's true! Except we're not talking about those. We're talking MMOs. There's a reason I don't play these games a lot anymore... it's the two genre worst hit by the "let's skip the single-player portion and just make it a glorified multiplayer game. Yay! Infinite content!" phenomenon. I used to be a huge RTS player. Back when those games had stories, plots and didn't just feel like a string of cheap one-shot random maps against the computer.
[/ QUOTE ]
Fury will be all pvp all the time. Remains to be seen if this will be successful, as THERE IS NOTHING like it out right now in MMOs. I think I agree with your point, I'm yet to see an MMO that has ONLY pvp that has been successful. And by today's WoW-ified standards successful does not = 10K subs for most game developers/publishers.
I'm hoping Fury makes at least 80K. I would consider that a success.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
If you are being labelled a poo monkey then you've done something to deserve it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Right. Because no one in the history of mankind has ever been wrongly accused, or even simply misunderstood.
Your logic is severely flawed if you really believe that.
Jack Butler is a poo monkey.
See how that works?
Here you come with a stupid name like Fixer - brutalkillz_
Oh Snap!
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I suspect, just like with the Fortune Teller mission, you'll get people auctioning spots on the team.
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I'm glad I play on Liberty. People trying to auction spots in Fortune Teller get a loud resounding LOL. Hopefully that won't change.
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So what I'm saying is that all, not most, players who originally bought the game were doing so with the expectation that PvP was not part of it. As a result, there are players to this day who would run away in droves if PvP were suddenly implemented in anything even resembling the traditional way.
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Yes, many of us are still here.
Also, as the Writer of this said, those of a mindset tend to congegrate with those of like mind... the people I play closest with, obviously, are of like mind... not fond of or of the opinion that we would rather log off and go scrub the kitchen floor on our hands and knees with Pine Sol and a scrub brush than PvP. We're also not that thrilled with the idea of I9 (save for the QOL stuff like new emotes and with hope a base kick fix) and the Statesman TF.
The theft of entire SGs (many, many) over the last few weeks entire stock of salvage on our server is evidence of the temptation of the upcoming auction houses. Salvage has gone from being a useful base commodity and empowerment buff fuel once forged into components, into something now so valuable that less scrupulous individual players may now be tempted to steal as much as they can get from their own SG mates. On one end of the spectrum, it was a player a member of the SG for almost 2 years. On the other end, a fairly new one in an SG with poor rank controls, the player now known (after coordinated player-motivated investigation) who actively looks for such SGs and passes the loot to his own SG. Yet such incidents have happened more times than I can count on one hand in the last 2 weeks on my server. I name no names, I violate no rules here. Wentworths awaits, and people are preparing.
Ironically... I am one of the few people looking forward to the new Hamidon Raid heroside. The old Hami raid was a grind of /broadcast trashtalking and blather, mooching, with the same 40-50 people doing all the work. That said... I don't see myself doing it much once I try it, succeed a couple times, and get bored with it. I plan on doing the TF.
One more thing - last night, a fellow long time player said that the final thing that might be what made him leave was to see just how bad the broadcast Wentworth spam gets.
Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes. - Sweet_Sarah
BOYCOTT NCSoft (on Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/517513781597443/
Governments have fallen to the power of social media. Gaming companies can too.
Nice read.
Fury is good so far. We've only had a few alpha testing dates, but so far its fun.
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Yes, many of us are still here.
Also, as the Writer of this said, those of a mindset tend to congegrate with those of like mind... the people I play closest with, obviously, are of like mind... not fond of or of the opinion that we would rather log off and go scrub the kitchen floor on our hands and knees with Pine Sol and a scrub brush than PvP. We're also not that thrilled with the idea of I9 (save for the QOL stuff like new emotes and with hope a base kick fix) and the Statesman TF.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hear hear.
I tried several other MMOs (Dating back to Meridian 59, up through WoW) after they were released, and never lasted more than a few weeks in each -- they all seemed to personify the absolute worst in the online experience without any of the high points that the best video games can bring. I stuck with CoX because it seemed to be the first (and apparently the last) MMO that did not require mild-grade Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder to enjoy. I could log in, play a lot, and get full enjoyment by catching up only a little. CoX provides the rare experience where you get more enjoyment the more you put into it, but you are by no means REQUIRED to approach gameplay with a PhD Thesis-like obsession to get even the slimmest measure of "fun" out of it.
I was really, really glad CoH didn't have PVP or auction houses or "loot" when I first joined -- keeping those MMO features out limited content in some ways, but also quite frankly kept out a lot of the worst kinds of behaviors I tend to associate with MMOs. I was wary when I heard the PVP was coming, and relieved to see that they left PVP to particular zones with their own storylines and rules for operation. This felt like a particularly clever way to add in PVP content without dramatically impacting the style of play set in the previous 18 months of release.
But no. I don't want the game to skew PVP. I don't want the "option" of villains going into Paragon or vice versa. (In fact, I'd like more non-combatant crossover zones... Striga seems to make sense, being lawless and all. Wouldn't that be fun? Joint TFs in Striga?) I hate the use of the term "slippery slope," but that is exactly what that would be. Give an inch, a year later you have to give a mile. And suddenly the game doesn't resemble itself anymore, the game I somehow saw fit to give money to every month for THREE YEARS in its current incarnation.
But then I don't really care about competing, or about having the best build, or having .5% more damage dealt each attack than the other guy. I don't care about getting the best deal on loot. I don't care about scoring PVP or PVE kills with the least amount of effort and risk.
I care about stuff like good and interesting storylines. I care about new emotes and costume pieces. I care about new zones with thematic temporary powers and distinct "feels" that make me want to visit them even when I'm way past the point of scoring xp there. I like grouping with my friends and having the occasional side of RP. I like content. There are approximately seven zillion games I can go to if I want to gank other people all day. But I didn't go to those games. I came here. And I stayed.
And, at least according to my global list, there's a lot of other people like me...
It was fun.
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The theft of entire SGs (many, many) over the last few weeks entire stock of salvage on our server is evidence of the temptation of the upcoming auction houses. Salvage has gone from being a useful base commodity and empowerment buff fuel once forged into components, into something now so valuable that less scrupulous individual players may now be tempted to steal as much as they can get from their own SG mates. On one end of the spectrum, it was a player a member of the SG for almost 2 years. On the other end, a fairly new one in an SG with poor rank controls, the player now known (after coordinated player-motivated investigation) who actively looks for such SGs and passes the loot to his own SG. Yet such incidents have happened more times than I can count on one hand in the last 2 weeks on my server. I name no names, I violate no rules here. Wentworths awaits, and people are preparing.
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That is sad very sad. Espically since base salvage can't be used to make inventions.
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I'm simply looking for the existing rules to actually be enforced... which they aren't at this time, as you yourself have pointed out in the past.
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I am all for vigorous enforcement of the in game rules.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Nice post full of statements passed as facts that have no real support. Everything I've ever read and seen shows that PvE is the one that pays the bills for most MMORPG's. Nothing you presented I see proves otherwise. Nothing wrong with a lot of your opinions and you are entitled to thinking PvP is the only fun thing in the world, but saying PvE'ers are second class and nothing but a monetary drain on games? Who's trying to drive who away here again?
PvP doesn't "keep people around" and can get just as repetitive as PvE, unless you are into PvP and that's what you enjoy. Just like some (like me) are still here after 3 years and are kept around by PvE, friends, alts, badges, possibly soon inventions, and teaming in general.
Others have already pointed out the common internet forum fallacy of "all my friends believe <X>, so the vast majority must believe <x>! By the way, almost everyone I know that I play with hates PvP and yet are still around. There we go. I can also post my own funny anecdotes about the few times I've been on a PuG team where the leader actually selected a PvE mission just even merely inside a PvP zone. At least 2 or 3 out of the 8 will outright say, "I'm not going there", another 2 or 3 will just quit without a word. This isn't even PvP'ing, but even just stepping into the zone briefly and it gets that kind of reaction every time I've seen it.
On the same principle, nice job posting this in the PvP forum, a real shocker most here agree with it. Only reason I even saw it was because it is now in the dev digest.
On Castle's post, I had no problem understanding the auction houses as a minor form of "economic" pvp. Not sure why it was met with such derision. I found the reaction to it here interesting.
Lastly, I'm all for games having both PvE and PvP content. The more subscribers a game can get the better. The balancing act is in trying to get both without alienating one or the other. It is why I'm always for multiple servers with different rulesets. For example, you could have one where you could level up through PvP only if you wanted, giving exp for it. Yes, it can create headaches for the devs, but if a game wants to appeal to the widest audience I think that's where it has to go. Just like having multiple cable channels to watch, each appeals to its own audience.
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I don't know what Fury is. As for WAR (or WHO, if you prefere), that's kinda my point. Optional. And that's one game heavily slated for PvP anyway. And still it will have plenty PvE content as well that you can do if you want.
When I think of a game without any PvE at all, I kinda think WoW, but with only the battlegrounds. Or CoH/V, but only the arena. They don't sound like huge games to me
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Thats exactly what Fury will be. WHO (and DAOC really achieved the same thing) makes PvE a complete option, since you can level as effectively in PvP as well gaining items. WoW's recent changes to loot drops in PvP are also a step in that (IMO right) direction, but of course you still have to level via PvE there.
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As for FPS/RTSs, that's true! Except we're not talking about those. We're talking MMOs. There's a reason I don't play these games a lot anymore... it's the two genre worst hit by the "let's skip the single-player portion and just make it a glorified multiplayer game. Yay! Infinite content!" phenomenon. I used to be a huge RTS player. Back when those games had stories, plots and didn't just feel like a string of cheap one-shot random maps against the computer.
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For FPS games and RTS games the jump to multiplayer was the best thing that could have happened. People still play Counterstrike and StarCraft in droves and the vast majority of that time is spent in multiplayer online matches.
I understand that you may personally not like it, but that doesn't invalidate the concept that PvP is immensely popular and well worth including (and even focusing on) in MMO's. That's not to say that every MMO has to include PvP, but its hard to imagine a publisher not including it at this point. The difference between FPS, RTS, and MMO players is not a large gap, in fact most people cross genre's at least occasionally so ignoring the popularity of PvP in the other genre's because they aren't MMO's isn't particularly wise IMO.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Ok, since you want facts...here are some for ya.
1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
3. There are more players playing pure PvP games (including FPS and RTS games) than all MMO's combined.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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I don't know what Fury is. As for WAR (or WHO, if you prefere), that's kinda my point. Optional. And that's one game heavily slated for PvP anyway. And still it will have plenty PvE content as well that you can do if you want.
When I think of a game without any PvE at all, I kinda think WoW, but with only the battlegrounds. Or CoH/V, but only the arena. They don't sound like huge games to me
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats exactly what Fury will be. WHO (and DAOC really achieved the same thing) makes PvE a complete option, since you can level as effectively in PvP as well gaining items. WoW's recent changes to loot drops in PvP are also a step in that (IMO right) direction, but of course you still have to level via PvE there.
[ QUOTE ]
As for FPS/RTSs, that's true! Except we're not talking about those. We're talking MMOs. There's a reason I don't play these games a lot anymore... it's the two genre worst hit by the "let's skip the single-player portion and just make it a glorified multiplayer game. Yay! Infinite content!" phenomenon. I used to be a huge RTS player. Back when those games had stories, plots and didn't just feel like a string of cheap one-shot random maps against the computer.
[/ QUOTE ]
For FPS games and RTS games the jump to multiplayer was the best thing that could have happened. People still play Counterstrike and StarCraft in droves and the vast majority of that time is spent in multiplayer online matches.
I understand that you may personally not like it, but that doesn't invalidate the concept that PvP is immensely popular and well worth including (and even focusing on) in MMO's. That's not to say that every MMO has to include PvP, but its hard to imagine a publisher not including it at this point. The difference between FPS, RTS, and MMO players is not a large gap, in fact most people cross genre's at least occasionally so ignoring the popularity of PvP in the other genre's because they aren't MMO's isn't particularly wise IMO.
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I think you missed the point. The point is there is a SUCCESSFUL game out right now that focuses ONLY on pvp. Fury is yet to be released, so this remains to be seen.
However, I agree (and I think the person you responded to does) that any sucessful (notice i keep saying that word, I think some forget that MMOs are a buisness--though clearly not you T_L) that any MMO released now has to focus on both. I would even argue it should focus equally on both, which arguably up until recently cov/h hasn't done.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Well lets see.
1. Watching the youtube vid made me a lot more interested in warhammer than I was before.
2. Any designer that uses an auction house as representative example of pvp has some serious misunderstandings of the pvp experience and its appeal to players.
3. pvp play is inarguably more engaging, visceral, and immediate than pve play -- which doesn't mean pve isnt fun. grinding through a "narrative" can be entertaining, but honestly id really rather just watch the movie.
4. loot sucks. theres no way around this.
5. dont devs want to be innovative, to do something original, rather than the do same old thing everybody else does? sure, its a business and you got to make a living, but when did game design become widget production?
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Ok, since you want facts...here are some for ya.
1. Well over half of all MMO players worldwide are playing on a server with open non-consensual PvP.
2. Well over 90% of all MMO players are playing a game that allows PvP.
3. There are more players playing pure PvP games (including FPS and RTS games) than all MMO's combined.
[/ QUOTE ]
True facts on and all. But that does not mean that pvp ALONE can drive a SUCCESSFUL MMO.
Though FURY looks like its about to break that mold.
Sorry to keep bringing up Fury in this forum, but the game looks (I haven't tested it myself yet) and sounds just that damn good.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
4. loot sucks. theres no way around this.
5. dont devs want to be innovative, to do something original, rather than the do same old thing everybody else does? sure, its a business and you got to make a living, but when did game design become widget production?
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These two points are key, but unfortunatly you are a bit naive if you think any potential mmo publisher can ignore loot forever or not try to do what is successful just because they want to be different. MMOs are besides everything else, first and foremost a business. If you can't get the subscription numbers in, everything else is irrelevant.
Now not saying I wouldn't like to see more creativity (can we please stop having the newer MMOs coming out trying to be like WoW) but I'm also a realist.
Though some would say pessimist. 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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On the other hand, PvE environments are generally static, and not because they have to be, but because game designers claim they *must* be: that an evolving PvE environment creates all sorts of problems that would upset or unbalance the game. Can't have PvE players alterning the environment, because a constantly shifting backdrop to PvE would wreck PvE.
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I don't really know any developers who believe that. We look at games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, God of War or Shadow of the Colossus and the innovative use of terrain involved there and think "How can we get things such as that into our game?"
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The reality of deformable terrain or move able terrain is essetially that most developers want to avoid the "stacking" wars of UO where you could completely enclose someone elses home with objects they may or may not be able to interact with, there by griefing you.
Statesman as I recall in the first few months of the game's release explained the reason deformable terrain wasn't used in CoH.
Golden Avatar - 50 Invul/Mace Tanker (Infinity)
Police Drone GA - 50 Fire/FF Controller (Infinity)
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Jack Butler is a poo monkey.
See how that works?
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You mean do I see how you're not bothering to even try and respond to my posts, just insulting me out of hand? Yes, I see how that works.
To the primate house with you.
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Yes.
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Okay, fair statement. How is it hypocrisy? This feels akin to your saying "Calling a man who has robbed a bank a bank robber is wrong" to me, and that makes no sense. As Herodotus said, it is no insult to a dead man to say that he is dead. If someone is acting like an [censored]-hat, and everyone recognizes that he is acting like an [censored]-hat, how is pointing out that fact hypocrisy?
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Because dead is a well defined term. Whereas [censored]-hat is not only censoered it is also highly subjective. Your use of the word is engageing in the same activity that is provokeing you to call them a [censored]-hat. I dunno about hypocracy but it certainly a good case of becoming what you behold.
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Nonsense.
There is no comparison between my calling someone an [censored]-hat and hounding someone so badly they flee the game. No comparison at all.
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Yes there is. Look at your sig man. Calling anyone who causes any form of dismay to ANY person whatsoever is considered a Poo Monkey.
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I'm simply looking for the existing rules to actually be enforced... which they aren't at this time, as you yourself have pointed out in the past.
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I am all for vigorous enforcement of the in game rules.
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Of course, it occurs to me that the problem comes in interpreting the rules.
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Not to mention in a more dramatic way regarding RV. That backdrop changes as a result of PvP and is something PvEers can only dream about.
I've been working on a system that involves takeing back the city zones from the villains. (Inspired by GTA: San Andreas) My problem is I can't figure out how to do it that owuld be balanced in the PvE game. If it was a simple quesiton of a PvP change it would be absurdly easy and fun.
Content is just so much easier in a PvP enviroemtn because all you have to o is give the players the tools they need. In the PvE game you have to balance it among a thousand different factors and write up AI, missions breifings, etc.
I enjoy both aspects of the game but I think in the long term the OP is right. PvP is just so much more open ended and has a great deal of potential that the PvE game can never have.
I look at the PvP zones and thing they are kinda neat. They have a story around them but that isnt really what PvP is about. PvP is something the players make. I think content like that should be left to the PvE game while the PvP game should just be given the tools to make their world. RV is a great PvP zone. Bloody bay is not.
There will always be a portion of this community that will hate PvP. I dont really see why we need to pander to what they think. Scre em. They wont be happy until PvP is gone. I would prefer a more constructive debate on how to make PvP better.
I tend to look at EVE Online as a good PvP game. VERY open ended. The PvE game is extremely tedious but once you get into the heart of the player community you find something very cool. I really want something like that for CoX. It's not quite there yet and I think alot of the reason is the PvP game is overly restricted.
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You could have that same sort of backdrop in PvE too...
Take the Skulls and the Hellions for example... If people over a given time frame take out more Skulls than Hellions via street sweeps, missions, etc then the Hellions would start taking over the town until they were forced back down. Heck, it might even be set such that it would cause zone events to happen (arson, fire bombing, etc).
Just saying, you can have dynamic PvE if you are willing to massage the system a little.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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Yes.
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Okay, fair statement. How is it hypocrisy? This feels akin to your saying "Calling a man who has robbed a bank a bank robber is wrong" to me, and that makes no sense. As Herodotus said, it is no insult to a dead man to say that he is dead. If someone is acting like an [censored]-hat, and everyone recognizes that he is acting like an [censored]-hat, how is pointing out that fact hypocrisy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Because dead is a well defined term. Whereas [censored]-hat is not only censoered it is also highly subjective. Your use of the word is engageing in the same activity that is provokeing you to call them a [censored]-hat. I dunno about hypocracy but it certainly a good case of becoming what you behold.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nonsense.
There is no comparison between my calling someone an [censored]-hat and hounding someone so badly they flee the game. No comparison at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes there is. Look at your sig man. Calling anyone who causes any form of dismay to ANY person whatsoever is considered a Poo Monkey.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah that's really too broad a stroke their Jack.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But the fact that most games are being build with PvP in mind doesn't prove anything. How many of these games have no PvE content? How many successful MMOs can you name that have no PvE content at all? So... is it right to conclude that all these games (including WoW) owe their success to PvE? Well, apparently!
[/ QUOTE ]
Fury will have no PvE content and in WHO you can level and get gear completely via PvP. Now, both of these games are still in development/testing and so haven't yet demonstrated success. However, arguably the entire FPS/RTS online community is a pure PvP experience and still attracts more gamers than all of the MMO's combined.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what Fury is. As for WAR (or WHO, if you prefere), that's kinda my point. Optional. And that's one game heavily slated for PvP anyway. And still it will have plenty PvE content as well that you can do if you want.
When I think of a game without any PvE at all, I kinda think WoW, but with only the battlegrounds. Or CoH/V, but only the arena. They don't sound like huge games to me
As for FPS/RTSs, that's true! Except we're not talking about those. We're talking MMOs. There's a reason I don't play these games a lot anymore... it's the two genre worst hit by the "let's skip the single-player portion and just make it a glorified multiplayer game. Yay! Infinite content!" phenomenon. I used to be a huge RTS player. Back when those games had stories, plots and didn't just feel like a string of cheap one-shot random maps against the computer.
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
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