New WarCry Dev interview
By
Anouke_NA,
Posted on: 2007-04-09 18:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
With this talk of 35-40 content and 45-50 content makes me think a little more. Maybe there is more to it than that. Would it be a stretch to say that if you have a level 50 already and go to make a new character that its ranges would start differntly, say 10-15 with new content attachted. Coming into battle already "Mentored" "Trained" to a higher level? This maybe me just reading in to it too much or I could be right. Just a thought, and if I am way off, I got this new idea out there...
I doubt that will occur. Levels 1-10 are so fast anyway, 'force' people to skip them.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The most difficult thing to develop that I would like to add to our game is a completely new database architecture which allows every single player who plays CoH & CoV to be able to play on the same game server. This means no more server selection screens, no more re-rolling because your real life friends are not on the same server as you, and no more trouble finding a group at 3:00 AM because everyone else is sleeping. Its not an impossible endeavor but my programming team assures me that there is nothing more time consuming and complicated that we could develop for our game at this point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Throw in the towel much? You see, the problem I perceive from this programming/production team is that they work in absolutes. It's an anal-retentive flaw I see all the time at work with engineers. Everything must be perfectly prepared, and complete. If a feature they're working on cannot be fully realized, it's shelved (in this game, that means for a long time). I have a problem with this. What is it about engineers and programmers having a very hard time working compromise? Or does the fault lay at production's feet or higher? This mindset has prevented the release of features like flight poses, and any Crossover.
[/ QUOTE ]
Engineers and programmers do not necessarily have a hard time working compromise -- it's just that sometimes things really are a case where a compromise isn't adequate or feasible. There's a difference between saying "this isn't good enough" and being a perfectionist. To take your example of flight poses, the original implementation wasn't good enough; it was not an acceptable compromise between their vision and what was implementable. The current version of flight poses which is on test, however, appears to be an acceptable compromise in their eyes. It's not what they originally planned, but it works. (Your other example, hero/villain crossover is a design issue regarding balance more than a case of programmatic difficulty. From what bits and pieces we've heard, it's almost trivial from a programmatic standpoint, but they're still looking into issues of balance and intended design.)
In this particular case, though, compromise itself really isn't a viable option. The desired goal is a single server. There isn't a compromise possible there -- you either have a single server or you have multiple ones. There isn't an in-between state. (And this isn't a case of wanting to consolidate just low-population servers, as DAoC did. The desire he stated was for all servers to be one. The number of changes needed to do that in a healthy game without having an adverse effect on the users would likely be bigger than any issue to date. Now think about how long its taken to do some of those issues...)
[ QUOTE ]
What is it about engineers and programmers having a very hard time working compromise?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's easy. They all think in 1's and 0's. There are no decimal points.
;D
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be fairly obvious to say that it ill be levels 50-55?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll go ahead and squash that one now. Level cap is NOT going up in I10!
[/ QUOTE ]
With all respect, you devs said the same thing about crafting, before the game was even released. Now we've got I9 introducing crafting and loot. Granted, there are no crafting skills to level up - and for that I will be eternally grateful - but... are you gonna tell us to read your lips, next?
I couldn't help noticing, also, that you qualified your statement with a reference to a specific Issue. Does this mean you're considering an increase with future issues?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Issue 10 will focus on a level range that you guys have been clamoring about for a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hooray!
[/ QUOTE ]
That'll be so nice! I'll probably be either the 35 - 45 range. No matter what level range it is, I'm sure it'll enrich the game.
Also, I can't WAIT for the veritable sh*tstorm of posts from ungrateful players and general wastes of life that scream at the top of their lungs "THIS CONTENT DOESN'T CATER DIRECTLY TO ME. IT'S WORTHLESS. I HATE THE DEVS AND THIS GAME. I'M GOING TO GO PLAY WOW. HERE IS ANOTHER $15. I STILL HATE YOU."
Those people fill me with warmth, glee and rainbows. 
[/ QUOTE ]
I would be glad if that happens. That would be one Less idiot to deal with in the game.
On the plus side the next interview is with Sexy Jay. Wonder what his responses will be like.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hopefully it will reflect the emanations of the "device" and Sexy Jay will say "Cloaks, this game really needs some cloaks, not just wimpy capes"
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
[ QUOTE ]
What is it about engineers and programmers having a very hard time working compromise?
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, Or Not At All, is a general rule of mine professionally also, with the exception of handling emergencies (the rule there is Right And Now: Or I Kill You).
I imagine people would prefer if the people who designed their bridges, elevators, aircraft, life support systems, anti-lock brakes, and other optional areas of everyday life tended to think similarly.
Moreover, programmers and engineers know that bad designs tend to get institutionalized. Making it bad doesn't mean you'll be able to improve it later on. Making it bad often means its going to be bad forever, because of the "practical realities" of the system once its in use.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
not only that but often times trying to do a compromise, creates even more work down the road. what it takes to make it work now + perfect it later in most cases is far more time consuming than just doing it right later on.
[ QUOTE ]
not only that but often times trying to do a compromise, creates even more work down the road. what it takes to make it work now + perfect it later in most cases is far more time consuming than just doing it right later on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not only does it usually take longer to fix something than make it from scratch, the effort it will take to fix it can grow over time. That's because the rest of the system will evolve around the broken thing, incorporating its broken-ness as a consequence.
Consider a very trivially simple example: what BaB said about Hamidon. Players were not intended to hold Hamidon to prevent respawns: they thought they gave him enough magnitude to prevent that, but players just assumed the mag was a challenge to overpower. By the time they had the technology to prevent Hamidon from being held and prevented from generating mito respawns, they had tweaked so many other things about Hamidon to work around that problem (and others) that the actual fix itself wouldn't work anymore anyway, thus forcing a complete redesign from scratch.
They can do that with Hamidon: they can make a different one on test. They cannot necessary make a bad cross server infrastructure, then go back later and make another one while keeping the live servers functioning correctly. And the act of implementing a bad one can force them to make other bad things happen in the live server code just to make the cross server infrastructure work correctly, preventing a better solution from ever actually working properly.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be fairly obvious to say that it ill be levels 50-55?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll go ahead and squash that one now. Level cap is NOT going up in I10!
[/ QUOTE ]
Eh... I'm on the fence. Yes, I want new content and stuff for my 50's to do but... I'm running out of room in my trays!
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT
My mastermind is in DIRE NEED of a fourth tray. Ctrl+Alt+number would work excellently for that tray, or I wouldn't mind having to click those powers (I could keep my accolades and temps there) BUT I NEED ANOTHER VISIBLE TRAY!!!!!!!!!!! 
OK, how about we LOWER the level cap to 40...all enhancements are automatically appropriately lowered and we crush all the content down by 10 levels so that things are more interesting from the beginning of the game...
We could feel like heroes from the outset rather than joggers...
I don't completely undertanding what he meant by this. Is he saying 50s can further level up? Or does he mean they're doing to work on some set of 10 levels.
If the latter, how would he work on those? What would be improved?
[ QUOTE ]
There's a difference between saying "this isn't good enough" and being a perfectionist. To take your example of flight poses, the original implementation wasn't good enough; it was not an acceptable compromise between their vision and what was implementable.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the problem, isn't it? Matt Miller once said (in reference to EAT's for example):
"From a production standpoint, when given the choice between an expensive feature 10% of the players will get to see and enjoy, and one that 90% of the players will get to see and enjoy, its almost a no-brainer."
Frankly, I see Vision(tm) getting more in the way of progress than economics and time tables. You'll forgive me if I take exception to what realistically defines an unacceptable compromise in this game? Or are you really willing to put the 10% / 90% ratio to test on a few features this playerbase has long requested and may never see?
[ QUOTE ]
(Your other example, hero/villain crossover is a design issue regarding balance more than a case of programmatic difficulty. From what bits and pieces we've heard, it's almost trivial from a programmatic standpoint, but they're still looking into issues of balance and intended design.)
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope so, because it sure does look like our dev team would rather everyone forget the notion of a Crossover feature (even though it was Mr. Emmert himself who I understood promised this would be added to the game. Or am I mistaken about this?)
Nevertheless, balance is a laudable goal. There is considerable, noteworthy discussion and counterpoint on this at the thread referenced in my sig line. Please visit. Suffice to say, I am of a mind at this point in CoX's life that balance in this game, while laudable, isn't as big a priority or as game-breaking or tedious as many make it out to be. Based on the deafening silence by the devs, I'd surmise they've reached the point (with all the MUO distractions) where they think that if it isn't easy and cheap, they aren't interested in introducing it.
[ QUOTE ]
In this particular case, though, compromise itself really isn't a viable option. The desired goal is a single server. There isn't a compromise possible there -- you either have a single server or you have multiple ones. There isn't an in-between state. (And this isn't a case of wanting to consolidate just low-population servers, as DAoC did. The desire he stated was for all servers to be one.
[/ QUOTE ]
We disagree. Rather than do nothing and spend nothing which is what production would rather do, I believe consolidation or clustering is a viable compromise between leaving the servers woefully under-populated and everyone playing on one server.
[ QUOTE ]
Now think about how long its taken to do some of those issues...
[/ QUOTE ]
Please. Im trying to remain positive. Nostalgia will only make me crankier.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is it about engineers and programmers having a very hard time working compromise?
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, Or Not At All, is a general rule of mine professionally also, with the exception of handling emergencies (the rule there is Right And Now: Or I Kill You).
I imagine people would prefer if the people who designed their bridges, elevators, aircraft, life support systems, anti-lock brakes, and other optional areas of everyday life tended to think similarly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure. I imagine they'd also prefer that these brilliant folks could tell the difference between a levee and a levitate spell. There's quite a colorful line you draw between engineering optional entertainment and engineering critical safety items affecting real life.
Still, considering how many safe and viable ways there are to engineer and build a bridge, I hope you aren't suggesting your way is always "Right" and trumps your competitor's or that because your boss or his boss bid lower for the contract, you are somehow less attentive to getting it "Right"? Or perhaps your own colleagues are clearly inept - suggesting a line of code would better fit here than there? "My ("right") way or the highway" is an arrogant luxury that few can afford because it undermines more than it gains in efficiency in my experience.
No, perhaps programmers just aren't used to social engineering? Given the choice to datamine for another 6 months or compromise, which choice would a programmer make? How about the NCSoft subscription bean counters?
[ QUOTE ]
There's quite a colorful line you draw between engineering optional entertainment and engineering critical safety items affecting real life.
[/ QUOTE ]
No difference to me. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't believe its your job to do everything the correct way, every time, you shouldn't be making french fries, much less anything more challenging.
[ QUOTE ]
Still, considering how many safe and viable ways there are to engineer and build a bridge, I hope you aren't suggesting your way is always "Right" and trumps your competitor's or that because your boss or his boss bid lower for the contract, you are somehow less attentive to getting it "Right"? Or perhaps your own colleagues are clearly inept - suggesting a line of code would better fit here than there? "My ("right") way or the highway" is an arrogant luxury that few can afford because it undermines more than it gains in efficiency in my experience.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's lots of ways to be right, and even more ways to be wrong. When there exists someone who can do it right, and they cost significantly less than me, I refer people to them. I have a very long-standing reputation professionally for doing that: I have no interest in making people pay more for something just so they can get it from me.
When they can't do it correctly, and I know it, and they attempt to convince people otherwise, I have another very long-standing professional reputation as well, and it involves giving people enough rope to hang themselves with, and then helping them with the knot.
Right or not at all is not an "arrogant luxury" except to the incompetant. I've said that publicly before an audience of my professional peers, more than once. I'll keep saying it until I die or retire.
And I'm almost never the low bidder. I don't work for a stapler manufacturing company.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Since we appear to agree that there are different ways to be "right", I am suggesting in context with CoX that there is more to be gained by compromise for the "stapler" consumer - than doing nothing at all.
[ QUOTE ]
Since we appear to agree that there are different ways to be "right", I am suggesting in context with CoX that there is more to be gained by compromise for the "stapler" consumer - than doing nothing at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can compromise a lot in a design or implementation, but the one thing you should never do is compromise the future. If you can add a feature to the game that isn't quite perfect, but adding it does not in any way impact the ability to improve it later, or add things around it, then you might as well do it. Flight poses are an example. No matter how ugly the implementation might be, as long as its not an actual embarassment to the company, I'd say add them, and let the players who want to use them use them, even if they are not perfect.
But core infrastructure normally doesn't obey those kinds of rules. Adding things to the server environment to allow for cross-server activity is the sort of thing that when its done wrong, is like turning to the Dark Side: forever will it dominate your destiny.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't help noticing, also, that you qualified your statement with a reference to a specific Issue. Does this mean you're considering an increase with future issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't like to rule things out.
Also, they had said previously that they want to make sure that they had "endgame" before raising the cap.
I don't ever recall them saying they are not raising the cap in the context of "never never never ever".
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
[ QUOTE ]
But core infrastructure normally doesn't obey those kinds of rules. Adding things to the server environment to allow for cross-server activity is the sort of thing that when its done wrong, is like turning to the Dark Side: forever will it dominate your destiny.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just as long as you don't equate "core infrastructure" with AT or power set balance, we can agree. 
I would rather the design team was focusing on ways to address the low pop issue than cop out because the risk of doom is too great or that the "one server" concept is out of reach.
I'll also suggest that most "mistakes" that are perceived around here tend to be very subjective and relative to this player base. The more it dwindles in size, I'd expect the team to think a little bit more outside of the box.
[ QUOTE ]
.We could feel like heroes from the outset rather than joggers...
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, so true...My only argument to this would be the ecitement I felt the first time I achived a Travel Power...Of course now I pushing along the dead time till my latest Alt gets one.
As for One Server to bind us all, I wouldn't necessarily push for that, but maybe one or two less. I like to play with people...
[ QUOTE ]
Flight poses are an example. No matter how ugly the implementation might be, as long as its not an actual embarassment to the company, I'd say add them, and let the players who want to use them use them, even if they are not perfect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ironic example. The problem with flight poses was that people who used Fly had no choice but to use them, whether they liked them or not. You were automatically put into one when you started flying. That's why they took them out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flight poses are an example. No matter how ugly the implementation might be, as long as its not an actual embarassment to the company, I'd say add them, and let the players who want to use them use them, even if they are not perfect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ironic example. The problem with flight poses was that people who used Fly had no choice but to use them, whether they liked them or not. You were automatically put into one when you started flying. That's why they took them out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the new optional poses, which are kinda shoehorned into the game in an ugly fashion but at least they are here.
It was clear form the closed beta that those poses were going to be shelved forever until peeps made a big fuss about really really wanting them, so as a consolation the emote-fly option was invented (which works really well if you set up a decent keybind).
The Widow's Dark Hand - leader of Faux Pas
Champion Server
Tee Hee!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flight poses are an example. No matter how ugly the implementation might be, as long as its not an actual embarassment to the company, I'd say add them, and let the players who want to use them use them, even if they are not perfect.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ironic example. The problem with flight poses was that people who used Fly had no choice but to use them, whether they liked them or not. You were automatically put into one when you started flying. That's why they took them out.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the new optional poses, which are kinda shoehorned into the game in an ugly fashion but at least they are here.
It was clear form the closed beta that those poses were going to be shelved forever until peeps made a big fuss about really really wanting them, so as a consolation the emote-fly option was invented (which works really well if you set up a decent keybind).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'm sort of referring to both situations, in the sense that I believe that if they have a fundamental flaw (the original random non-optional ones), they shouldn't be added, but if they theoretically work but are just ugly (in terms of implementation, not visual appearance) then its fine to add them for those willing to take the trouble to figure out how to make them work. Because the existence of the current flight poses doesn't preclude making better ones later on (also, I suggested the emote-fly thing pretty soon after the initial versions were released onto test for precisely that reason: if it couldn't be perfected, then a reasonable compromise solution was to hack in an emote-like control to give players access to them).
But not all components of the game are like that. For example, there are game mechanical elements (like the tohit algorithm, or the defensive stacking mechanics) that are unambiguously suboptimal, create a very large number of problems that have to be worked around with very ugly hacks, but cannot be changed because its deemed to risky to tamper with. If you know in advance you're about to add something to the game that you're going to be too chicken to mess with later on, then it better be perfect, or as close to perfect as is humanly possible, because if you're being honest with yourself, you know you're never going to change it ever again, no matter how much problems it causes.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I really do hope there is someone other than the fans thinking outside of the box around here. After all, if Mythic can figure out how to cluster low pop servers, so can Cryptic. This is better to pursue than doing nothing at all, because it's too HARD to do perfectly.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see our servers merged to some extent. I was trying to group this late morning on Freedom of all places in the 43+ range and it wasn't easy. We should work something out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would it be fairly obvious to say that it ill be levels 50-55?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll go ahead and squash that one now. Level cap is NOT going up in I10!
[/ QUOTE ]
You heard it here first, the level cap is being raised in Issue 11!
[/ QUOTE ]
You know, quoting things several times makes people think they are True!
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question