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2) Skittishness: Back in the day, even low-level tankers had a good deal of survivability. However, with the Global Defense Nerf of I5, base resistance and defense values were slashed for many of the tanker primaries. This has led to a lowering of survivability in the lower levels for Tanks. What this means is that low level tanks may have had several experiences where, in doing their job, they died many times. This leads them to believe that they cant handle the aggro for their teams, and so they dont try to get all the aggro. It is not their fault, and it is not them being selfish, it is merely a reaction to the way theyve seen the game work out for them.
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Taunt actuallly increased my survivability in the early levels. There where quite a few times where there were mobs that were close enough together where I would have aggro'd both of them had I charged right in. By taunting one of the mobs and ducking behind something I was usually able to pull just one of the mobs so that I was in a situation where I could handle the aggro (i.e. one mob rather than two). In addition, by ducking behind something you usually get hit less than you would if you just charged right in.
MC Hammer would be delighted with your write up. 
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
My FA/EM Tank thanks you for your post.
Burning Aura = GREAT TAUNT POWER
Guantlet + BA = who needs taunt?
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2) Skittishness: Back in the day, even low-level tankers had a good deal of survivability. However, with the Global Defense Nerf of I5, base resistance and defense values were slashed for many of the tanker primaries. This has led to a lowering of survivability in the lower levels for Tanks. What this means is that low level tanks may have had several experiences where, in doing their job, they died many times. This leads them to believe that they cant handle the aggro for their teams, and so they dont try to get all the aggro. It is not their fault, and it is not them being selfish, it is merely a reaction to the way theyve seen the game work out for them.
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Taunt actuallly increased my survivability in the early levels. There where quite a few times where there were mobs that were close enough together where I would have aggro'd both of them had I charged right in. By taunting one of the mobs and ducking behind something I was usually able to pull just one of the mobs so that I was in a situation where I could handle the aggro (i.e. one mob rather than two). In addition, by ducking behind something you usually get hit less than you would if you just charged right in.
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This has more to do with skill and tactics that just using taunt to pull everyone towards you, which is kind of the point. I could use taunt to separate two groups that are close together, but the same could be said for the origin temp power. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a tanker, in the low levels, using taunt in a big group, attracting all the attention of a large spawn onto them (aka, 'doing their job') and then taking too much damage too quickly as a result.
Skill and tactics can prevent this, and taunt can be a part of that, but it's not what I was talking about.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Gauntlet is a good inherent. Taunt auras are a valuable tool. Onlya few tanker secondaries have a ranged attack (before the APPs) to get the attention of a distant enemy.
Yes, everyoen should work as a team and stick together, but sometimes a teammate is too far away to have the enemy attackign him be drawn to the tanker by his taunt aura or gauntlet.
That's there taunt comes into play. It allows a tanker to get enemy attention from a distance. Is it perfect? No. Can it be a crutch? Yes. But it does have its uses.
All I'm saying is that gauntlet, taunt auras, and the taunt power, have their places. You can handle many situations w/ only a few of the tools, but there's that off chance where you need all of them.
Excellet post, I use Taunt as a staple power in all my tanks, but agree it is not the only way to tank. Great post.
Hopefully this will pull some of the agro off the other posting and herd them here. 
hehe yes I'm being bad
Valor
Quote:
|
by Star Ranger 4 WIN LOSE OR DRAW, WE WILL FIGHT. WE ARE HEROES This is what we DO! |
Decide that this will be another day in which you Walk The Talk.
MA #14724 Operation: Discredit @American Valor
Sentinel Of Liberty SG
I was a little curious about another taunt aura...Icicles.
Does anyone know if it requires a to-hit check for the taunt portion of it or is it auto?
I find if my ice tank runs Icicles to gather a crowd (keeping CE off in order to lower the gather time) I don't always see damage above the mobs but they do seem to follow, but this could be line-of-sight aggro. By the time they are all around me, I have both Icicles and CE going and with the amount of mobs I usually gather, I don't really want to test out aggro loss with the rest of the team around
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I was a little curious about another taunt aura...Icicles.
Does anyone know if it requires a to-hit check for the taunt portion of it or is it auto?
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Icicles is not autoHit, and it does not taunt that which it does not hit, so likely what you are seeing is LoS aggro or "linked" aggro ("you hit my buddy, I hate you!").
Mud Pots is actually a rather unusual power. AutoHit is an attribute of a whole power, not of its components. Mud Pots is marked AutoHit for foes. But the damage component actually performs a check to see if the hit worked anyway. Apparently autohit powers still roll a hit check. They just don't normally care about the result.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
My Inluvn/SS thanks you for this thread, Aett. Well written and explains things nicely.
@Johnstone & @Johnstone 2
ediblePoly.com
All my characters
Very nice guide, tanks and non-tanks alike need to know this stuff when grouping.
Can I get a link to that taunt guide? Bit short on time and can't look for it myself. Thanks. :]
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Myth 4: Tankers are the only ones who need to manage aggro
This one comes up a lot, and is completely false...
Let me repeat: It is YOUR responsibility to manage YOUR aggro if YOU mess with a Tankers aggro.
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This is so very true. I couldn't even begin to relate the number of times I've seen a scrapper or blaster start attacking other groups, all the while expecting me to grab the extra aggro. My job as a tank is to protect the team, not to babysit some rogue teammate who decides to pull a Leroy.
I've always liked having Taunt on my tankers, but one thing to remember is that Taunt is now available at level 10. When it was available at level 4, you could grab Taunt, and in addition to the gauntlet in your first attack, maintain a fair bit of aggro in the early game. But with Taunt pushed back, most tanks need a second attack early on to contribute to damage and work with gauntlet. Because of the tight nature of the low levels (ie. Foundation powers for primary/secondary, prerequisites for travel powers/stamina) many tanks simply don't have the room left for Taunt.
Taunt is a great power (especially having no end cost), but if teamed with competent, knowledgeable teammates, a good tanker should not need it to maintain aggro.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
Looks good ta me! They really should sticky this, though a lot of the people who'd need the help of course don't check the forums at all anyways. Most won't even read the ReadMe or manual that came with the game.
Because aggro auras are so important for aggro control now, I kind of wish they'd move Invincibility up in Invulnerability. Yes, it's a great power, but not totally imbalancing to Chilling Embrace, say. Having no aura at all until 18's the main thing I see hurting your low level Invulnerability tankers. Unless they go AoE heavy and take Taunt they have a much harder time of controlling agg.
Maybe give Unyielding a taunt effect and change it's name to "Your Mom". That'd work.
"I'm flying free with my beautiful butterfly wings!" ~ Randy Marsh
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That's there taunt comes into play. It allows a tanker to get enemy attention from a distance. Is it perfect? No. Can it be a crutch? Yes. But it does have its uses.
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Heal Other is a crutch, but I never see people complain when/how I use it. Sometimes its just nice to have a full toolbox. Most characters, of most ATs, may not have that full toolbox until their 30s, I usually hold off questioning builds until then.
As for me, in my "learning to tank" phase on my fire/fire, I still haven't taken Taunt. I die a lot as it is.
Altoholism isn't a problem, its a calling.
60+ characters, 5 years, 3 50's.
Awsome Guide As for tanking with or without agro, I have dont both and I have one Level 50 Without it and one level 50 with it. I feel I do the same job however to pull that for off a team mate is such a luxury and if there is room in the build get it. You may never use it but there will come a time were it would be usefull and for that time its there.
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Heal Other is a crutch, but I never see people complain when/how I use it. Sometimes its just nice to have a full toolbox.
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Most players, now-a-days, will never complain about you as long as they see green numbers scrolling over their heads.
My 2 Influence.
As stated above, one of the BIG failures of teams - and not Tanks is the Team.
1. Stolen Aggro - Yep, you tell the team "I am herding to here", you run in, and as you return you see some Scrapper or Blaster standing in the middle of hall with Milk and Cookies to greet the incoming host.
The Result is a scattered mob, the team split between the original plan and saving the "waiter".
2. Knock Back - Yes, I am not talking about intelligent players, players knocking an NPC toward a Tank. I am talking about mindless blaster powers that simply blow villains in all directions. This includes Controller pets, Blasters/Defenders using Nova against Purple mobs - knowing they cannot defeat them, and knuckle headed Blasters who simply insist on playing the Scrapper... instead of using their melee tools as defensive weapons.
3. The Uninformed - who run about like a little schoolgirl with a giant monster chasing them. For them I teach the Cardinal Rule for Squishies! "JUMP THE TANK" and stay in a straight line so the bad guy runs right into them!
4. I AM FINALLY UBER! - Yes, the late game Controller feels they have finally come of age. I know... I was one too. Yes, you hold, you overcome everything... and you also fire your control early causing the mob to be scattered all over the room. This leaves a Tank attempting to keep aggro on a scattered mob that now will not move. This is a bad situation for Squishies and causes panic among good Tankers. Controllers need to learn to "Control" their ability to want to take control.
FINALLY! COMMUNICATION!
Yes, it is very important for the Tank to give a READY! when they are sure that they have aggro.
Remember that... READY! got it? And make sure you communicate that slowly, with patience, to the team and that they all understand to wait... here... for the READY!
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
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My 2 Influence.
As stated above, one of the BIG failures of teams - and not Tanks is the Team.
1. Stolen Aggro - Yep, you tell the team "I am herding to here", you run in, and as you return you see some Scrapper or Blaster standing in the middle of hall with Milk and Cookies to greet the incoming host.
The Result is a scattered mob, the team split between the original plan and saving the "waiter".
2. Knock Back - Yes, I am not talking about intelligent players, players knocking an NPC toward a Tank. I am talking about mindless blaster powers that simply blow villains in all directions. This includes Controller pets, Blasters/Defenders using Nova against Purple mobs - knowing they cannot defeat them, and knuckle headed Blasters who simply insist on playing the Scrapper... instead of using their melee tools as defensive weapons.
3. The Uninformed - who run about like a little schoolgirl with a giant monster chasing them. For them I teach the Cardinal Rule for Squishies! "JUMP THE TANK" and stay in a straight line so the bad guy runs right into them!
4. I AM FINALLY UBER! - Yes, the late game Controller feels they have finally come of age. I know... I was one too. Yes, you hold, you overcome everything... and you also fire your control early causing the mob to be scattered all over the room. This leaves a Tank attempting to keep aggro on a scattered mob that now will not move. This is a bad situation for Squishies and causes panic among good Tankers. Controllers need to learn to "Control" their ability to want to take control.
FINALLY! COMMUNICATION!
Yes, it is very important for the Tank to give a READY! when they are sure that they have aggro.
Remember that... READY! got it? And make sure you communicate that slowly, with patience, to the team and that they all understand to wait... here... for the READY!
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Humorously, this is the bulk of the rationale of why I have become a soloist. That and "l33t sp33k".
| Issue 9 Fly poses | IO's and ED
| Cycling the Combat Monitor | Load Macros from a Text File |
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Gauntlet is a good inherent. Taunt auras are a valuable tool. Onlya few tanker secondaries have a ranged attack (before the APPs) to get the attention of a distant enemy.
Yes, everyoen should work as a team and stick together, but sometimes a teammate is too far away to have the enemy attackign him be drawn to the tanker by his taunt aura or gauntlet.
That's there taunt comes into play. It allows a tanker to get enemy attention from a distance. Is it perfect? No. Can it be a crutch? Yes. But it does have its uses.
All I'm saying is that gauntlet, taunt auras, and the taunt power, have their places. You can handle many situations w/ only a few of the tools, but there's that off chance where you need all of them.
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well said. I frankly can't understand why anyone who wants to be a tanker, as opposed to a scranker, skips this. And doubly so if your a stoner b/c of the limited mobility. I can't even begin to count the # of times ranged taunt has saved people and fixed messes.
Excellent guide, I wish I'd seen it sooner.
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Myth 7: Once a Tanker enters battle, he's got aggro
*snip*
Also, the aggro cap is set to 17 mobs. So if there are more than that around the Tanker, realize that anything you do could strip mobs away from the Tanker and cause them to come straight at you. This ties in with managing your own aggro, because if you realize that the Tanker has more than 17 mobs on him, it's probably not the best idea to launch an AoE that could get you more than you can handle. If the Tanker has 17 mobs aggroed on him, he can taunt all he wants and that mob beating on you is going to stay there.
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Thank you! Entering this into my sig.
No problem! Glad to be of service!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Excellent mythbusting there.
Favorite quote:
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It is YOUR responsibility to manage YOUR aggro if YOU mess with a Tankers aggro.
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Very well put.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Myth 1: Tanks with taunt can obviously manage aggro
Herein lies the basis for many of the rants that appear on our forums. However, its plain just not true. A tanker that cant manage aggro without taunt may not have the ability to manage aggro with taunt. Being a Tanker is a mindset, not a power. Just because a Tanker has taunt in his arsenal does not increase his Tanker mindset by even a little amount.
Now, obviously some Tankers can handle aggro much better with taunt than without. My point here is just that this is not always the case. Being able to manage aggro is a skill that is independent of the taunt power. Ive seen tanks that can manage aggro quite well without taunt, and have seen tanks with taunt unable to keep a team safe.
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QFT
I have had my brush with this. Tanking is a Mindset and honestly some are adept to it others need to get into it and there are others that just cant grasp it.. its ok. Trust me I suck at blasting..lol. Thats a mindset in itself.
I have a question about Agro, if you tagret a tank and attack his target does he automatially get the agro or are there other factors that play into it?
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I have a question about Agro, if you tagret a tank and attack his target does he automatially get the agro or are there other factors that play into it?
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If I'm understanding the question right, no. Just because you target through the tank the tank does not necessarily have that aggro...though it's fairly likely he has it. The tank needs to grab the aggro either by attacking, gauntlet, taunt, or aggro aura.
So basically if you attack a mob by targeting through a tank and the tank hasn't grabbed the aggro first, expect the mob come for you.
And excellent post Aett_Thorn! Easily one of the best posts in the tanker forum. Oh and lastly Happy Birthday?
Posting this in the guides section to make sure it sticks around. After I first created this thread, many wanted it stickied. Since that didn't happen, I'm putting it in the guides section. Feel free to link people to here if need be.
Oftentimes, people will come into our nice, peaceful Tanker forums, and pose a rant about how their stupid tank couldnt hold aggro, and tells us all that if you dont have taunt, youre not a tank. Now, as many of us are aware, taunt is not the be-all, end-all of Tankerdom. It is a tool at our disposal, but not the only one. This thread is intended as a response to taunt rants, and also to highlight the two different sides of the debate, as both do have points.
Myth 1: Tanks with taunt can obviously manage aggro
Herein lies the basis for many of the rants that appear on our forums. However, its plain just not true. A tanker that cant manage aggro without taunt may not have the ability to manage aggro with taunt. Being a Tanker is a mindset, not a power. Just because a Tanker has taunt in his arsenal does not increase his Tanker mindset by even a little amount.
Now, obviously some Tankers can handle aggro much better with taunt than without. My point here is just that this is not always the case. Being able to manage aggro is a skill that is independent of the taunt power. Ive seen tanks that can manage aggro quite well without taunt, and have seen tanks with taunt unable to keep a team safe.
Myth 2: Tankers who dont want to take Taunt are just being selfish
A large portion of tankers without taunt arent doing it to be selfish. There are two factors at work here for why a Tanker might not take taunt: 1) Gauntlet and 2) Skittishness.
1) Gauntlet: When this mechanism is working properly, some tanks can use a combination of it and aggro auras to keep a full team of 8 completely safe. They may have decided that taunt was taking up a power selection that could be put to better use to put down the enemy or protect themselves. As long as they can keep the team alive, no one on the team should even notice that they dont have taunt.
2) Skittishness: Back in the day, even low-level tankers had a good deal of survivability. However, with the Global Defense Nerf of I5, base resistance and defense values were slashed for many of the tanker primaries. This has led to a lowering of survivability in the lower levels for Tanks. What this means is that low level tanks may have had several experiences where, in doing their job, they died many times. This leads them to believe that they cant handle the aggro for their teams, and so they dont try to get all the aggro. It is not their fault, and it is not them being selfish, it is merely a reaction to the way theyve seen the game work out for them.
Myth 3: Taunt is useless
Even the most die-hard anti-taunt Tanker will agree that taunt is far from useless. It is a great way to get mobs off of a squishy teammate at range. Not many tanker secondaries have ranged attacks, and no tanker secondary has an auto-hit ranged attack. Thus, when push comes to shove, and a mob is bearing down on a squishy, there are only two options: 1) Taunt, and 2) Go over there and punch him in the face. Taunt is usually quicker, and also usually doesnt lead to the loss of further aggro, of which 2) can sometimes cause.
Myth 4: Tankers are the only ones who need to manage aggro
This one comes up a lot, and is completely false. Even the best Tanker in the world is sometimes going to lose aggro. It may be rare, but it does occur. At that point, the squishies are going to find that they have to fend for themselves. Every AT in the game has a responsibility to manage aggro. A Tanker should not be expected to fully manage aggro if another player causes mobs to scatter or causes a mass knockback in random directions. At this point, a good tanker will quickly regain aggro on the majority of mobs, but he may have to let lesser threats go until he gets the aggro on the big guys. The other ATs are going to have to deal with these stragglers until the Tanker can get a handle on things again.
Let me repeat: It is YOUR responsibility to manage YOUR aggro if YOU mess with a Tankers aggro.
Myth 5: Gauntlet and aggro auras are not good enough to manage aggro by themselves
Again, it depends on the Tanker. Some Tankers can do a great deal of aggro management with just these two tools. Others cannot. However, dont judge a Tanker as useless just because you dont see Taunt in his power list. Let him show you what a tauntless tanker can do. If he cant do it well, then suggest that he get taunt. Dont come here and rant. We dont know him, and we probably arent him.
However, with this in mind, a tanker should keep in mind his team makeup, and realize that other ATs can get damage and effect auras that can compete with his aggro. While a tanker's aggro auras work differently that other AT's with aura powers, these auras can compete for the aggro of a tanker, and depending on the competition, the Tanker may lose aggro. It is not as easy as it looks.
Myth 6: Tankers with Taunt just arent good Tankers
Taunt is a tool that many find useful. Having taunt in your repertoire does not mean that you use it as a crutch for otherwise bad tanking. It is a good power, and when used properly, can be a very nice power to have. However, having taunt doesnt make you a good or bad Tanker, just as not having taunt doesnt make you a good or bad Tanker.
Myth 7: Once a Tanker enters battle, he's got aggro
This one's a bit tricky, but as GladDog pointed out to me, is fairly important for other ATs to realize. If a tanker is relying on taunt instead of aggro auras to get and hold aggro, it can take him a few seconds to get the full aggro of the entire group. Why is this, you might ask? Taunt only hits up to 5 mobs at once. So if the Tanker has no aggro aura, and jumps into a spawn of 12 mobs, it will take the Tanker at least 3 uses of taunt to have full aggro control.
The various taunt auras are also different. Invincibility and Chilling Embrace are Auto-hit. Mud Pots has some auto-hit characteristics. This means that they can attact aggro almost immediately. Blazing Aura, however, requires a To-Hit check to work, and may take a little longer for the tanker to get the aggro of the whole group.
Also, the aggro cap is set to 17 mobs. So if there are more than that around the Tanker, realize that anything you do could strip mobs away from the Tanker and cause them to come straight at you. This ties in with managing your own aggro, because if you realize that the Tanker has more than 17 mobs on him, it's probably not the best idea to launch an AoE that could get you more than you can handle. If the Tanker has 17 mobs aggroed on him, he can taunt all he wants and that mob beating on you is going to stay there.
Myth 8: All Tanker Sets are created equal for holding aggro
Sets like Ice/ and Fire/ get their aggro auras very early in their career. Many Stone/ tanks suggest holding off their aggro aura (mudpots) until after stamina due to endurance issues, but they can get their aggro aura fairly early. Invulnerability Tankers, however, cannot get their aggro aura until level 18. This means that at low levels, Fire/, Ice/ and Stone/ Tankers can have a much easier time holding aggro without taunt than Invuln/ Tankers. Thus, taunt can be more useful to some primaries than others, especially at lower levels.
If you would like to know more about the Taunt mechanism as a whole, I advise you to read Circeus' Guide to Taunt. It is a great reference for those wishing to know more about how taunt works.
I think that about sums it up, but if there are more that Im forgetting, please feel free to PM me and I will add them to the list. Please do not add items yourself. I cant really stop you, but I would prefer if we do this in a civil manner and try to keep the list concise. I feel that would be better accomplished by letting me add things to the list than have 40 posts after this with random facts in them.
Also, feel free to direct any taunt rants that start up to this thread, and leave it at that. I dont know if this will prevent flame-fests or not, but we can at least try.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus