I have a question why wouldnt you take taunt? Sure some people over value it. But during a 50 level run I cant imagine a build that couldnt use it..
Perhaps someone with a no taunt tanker could post a build? Id like to see where Id differ.
Personnally, on my invul brute, taunt is pretty much in the same mindset as Unstop. I use it when troubles happens or is about to happens (if I died, after the rez and a few toggles, I will throw a taunt or two).
Invincibility is doing 95% of the aggro management, with 3 shos and 3 taunt increase, I outaggro nearly everyone without an effort unless they want to take aggro from me.
Taunt...since I am an energy melee, it means that I could do an attack dealing as much as 3500 damage...or taunt...I only do it in emergencies situation, if it is my duty to. If I see peoples using rain of fire, fear or whatever non-sense, I will often let the offender died before using taunt to save the non-offender. See, a brute has a responsability to keep his group alive, but you also don't have to cover dumbs moves...if they are scattering the mobs, their problem. Scatters powers are extremely good, but they have to be used at the proper moment, they are situational...if nobody wants aggro in the group (the brutes/tankers are deads or none in group), then they are good, but if you have someone who is handling aggro, then scatters should be kept for if they died and not before.
Taunt main use for me is in PvP, even if I don't PvP much. Nothing like watching a group of heroes/villains thinking they can kill the other brute fast while you deliver tremendous energy damage on them...to just taunt them when the other brute start to feel under pressure. It has a heavy psychological bonus, peoples hate to be taunted. A Broadsword scrapper been taunted by an invul brute isn't happy, not happy at all. He was beating on the ela brute/fire brute and doing much damage, and now, he can only attack an invul brute and do very limited damage, turning him away from the other brute is good, but the effect on his psycholigical mindset is even better, he hates it...and if you do it more, he will wants to switch toon quite fast! 
My ela brute never took taunt...and I never will take it. My ela shouldn't be the main tank, and if this happen, the aura is doing a fair job if not perfect...and since all my attacks also happen to be AoE, I am good at taking aggro from everyone who isn't actually wanting it. Which is pretty much the job of my ela, my ela doesn't want to take aggro from a stoner or an invul in 95% of the situation, and if these tanks want me to take aggro, they know I have my aura and they can turn their aggro off.
Could my invul live without taunt? Yes, just like I can live without unstop. Would I skip either taunt or unstop? I would feel like skipping something that although not vital, is incredibly nice. But again, it depend. It depend on the peoples, but personnally, if I play a stoner or invul, I see taunt as a nice extra option, for problematic situation, while if I play any other type of brutes/tankers, I would find the aura enough, wouldn't want taunt.
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I have a question why wouldnt you take taunt? Sure some people over value it. But during a 50 level run I cant imagine a build that couldnt use it..
Perhaps someone with a no taunt tanker could post a build? Id like to see where Id differ.
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I have taunt on all my tanks/brutes at some point, so I can't provide a build, but I can see conceptual reasons why you wouldn't want it. It doesn't fit the concept. "Rachael" (Stone/SS) wouldn't actually 'taunt' someone in her comic book. While she could construct a thoroughly wounding insult, chances are, she wouldn't waste her breath on it. I didn't want to take it initially (back when it was 1 target) nor provoke because it just seemed 'silly' in concept. A bad guy decides not to make the killing blow on a guy who can shoot energy because another person questioned their parentage just doesn't fit in my mind.
Now, I do have it on Rachael, and I use it a great deal to keep my team save. I even have it bound to a phrase that gives it an RP excuse if I want to pursue that. But I take it because it makes my job tanking easier: it grabs aggro AND uses no endurance.
I advise tankers to take taunt, but I don't expect it, nor do I kick for it.
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it grabs aggro AND uses no endurance.
I advise tankers to take taunt, but I don't expect it, nor do I kick for it.
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However, it take an action which could have been used to do something else, damage or knockdown. I would also advise that all tankers/brutes that are stoners/invul take it, as a complementary power to their aura.
But any other tankers/brutes...they are offensive brutes/tankers, and thereby their role is more on the devastating side then on the tanking side. Their aura is doing a fair job. I wouldn't think any ill of a fire tanker that doesn't take taunt, as long as he has his aura, he outaggro every non-tanker in the group.
See, why should a fire tanker taunt instead of attacking? He is having build up and that fiery thing that also increase his damage...or he can deal no damage at all and taunt...a fire tanker isn't as solid as a stoner or an invul to start with, so if he takes more aggro without doing damage, it is getting heavy on his character.
Again, taunt is merely an extra to the aura IMO, and only the stoners/invul really need it, other have more offensive roles and thereby should consider more offensives alternatives. IMO. A fire tanker is doing about twice more damage then a stoner...this is important to consider if you want or not to taunt and deal no damage at all. A stoner that sacrifice all his damage to take aggro doesn't sacrifice as much as a fire tanker, and he can take damage a lot more than a fire tanker, and a lot longer...same logic vs an invul.
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However, it take an action which could have been used to do something else, damage or knockdown. I would also advise that all tankers/brutes that are stoners/invul take it, as a complementary power to their aura.
But any other tankers/brutes...they are offensive brutes/tankers, and thereby their role is more on the devastating side then on the tanking side. Their aura is doing a fair job. I wouldn't think any ill of a fire tanker that doesn't take taunt, as long as he has his aura, he outaggro every non-tanker in the group.
See, why should a fire tanker taunt instead of attacking? He is having build up and that fiery thing that also increase his damage...or he can deal no damage at all and taunt...a fire tanker isn't as solid as a stoner or an invul to start with, so if he takes more aggro without doing damage, it is getting heavy on his character.
Again, taunt is merely an extra to the aura IMO, and only the stoners/invul really need it, other have more offensive roles and thereby should consider more offensives alternatives. IMO. A fire tanker is doing about twice more damage then a stoner...this is important to consider if you want or not to taunt and deal no damage at all. A stoner that sacrifice all his damage to take aggro doesn't sacrifice as much as a fire tanker, and he can take damage a lot more than a fire tanker, and a lot longer...same logic vs an invul.
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By that argument, stone and invulnerability doesn't need it either. Stone has a damage aura as well (mud pots: a power that I run only when I'm logged in 
). Invulnerability has Invincibility which is a great power with a high aggro field as part of it.
You are correct in that I could be using a power that does damage or knock down, unless powers are recharging (as is often the case with Granite) or if I'm low on end and don't want to risk my toggles dropping. It is also true that when I get to higher levels I don't rely on taunt except to fill out my attack change (especially because Footstomp is such a beautiful power and an excellent lead off to grab aggro).
*edit*
Taunt also has one other feature that ANY tank can use. When a mob leaves your area and is no longer subject to your aggro, taunt can real them in at range.
I guess I had hopes someone who doesnt take taunt might show me their power selections 1-50 cause Id like to see what powers are being taken instead of taunt. Not why taunt isnt needed in xyz situation.
Anofalye even your brute examples... I have ela, nrg, and fire armor brutes. I take taunt on all of them for pve and pvp. However this wasnt a taunt on brutes question, it was taunt on tankers. Maybe on a fire/nrg pvp dueling build. Beyond that I just dont see how at some point 1-50 taunt isnt better than another option chosen (especially in PvE).
Here is my Ice/SS Tanker built to 41. I take Taunt at 41. I have 2 taunting auras and enough mobility that I have not had the need for taunt yet. I think Taunt is a good power, but delayable. Plus I don't do a lot of PUGs. I tend to play with long time CoH players, limiting my need to cover their buts. 
+---------------------------------------------
+ Built with SuckerPunch's Online Planner
+ http://www.cohplanner.com
+---------------------------------------------
Name: Punk Rocker
Level: 44
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Super Strength
+---------------------------------------------
01 => Jab ==> Acc(1),EndCost(5)
01 => Frozen Armor ==> DefBuff(1),DefBuff(3),DefBuff(3)
02 => Hoarfrost ==> Rech(2),Rech(5),Rech(7)
04 => Haymaker ==> Acc(4),Dam(7),Dam(9),Dam(9),EndCost(11),Rech(11)
06 => Air Superiority ==> Acc(6),Dam(13),Dam(13),Dam(17),EndCost(17),Rech(31)
08 => Wet Ice ==> EndCost(8)
10 => Chilling Embrace ==> EndCost(10)
12 => Swift ==> Flight(12)
14 => Fly ==> Flight(14),Flight(15),Flight(15)
16 => Health ==> Heal(16)
18 => Glacial Armor ==> DefBuff(18),DefBuff(19),DefBuff(19)
20 => Stamina ==> EndMod(20),EndMod(21),EndMod(21)
22 => Knockout Blow ==> Acc(22),Dam(23),Dam(23),Dam(27),EndCost(31),Rech(31)
24 => Icicles ==> Acc(24),Dam(25),Dam(25),Dam(31),EndCost(31),EndCost(34)
26 => Energy Absorption ==> Rech(26),Rech(27),Rech(34),EndMod(34),EndMod(37),EndMod(40)
28 => Rage ==> Rech(28),Rech(29),Rech(29),ToHitBuff(33),ToHitBuff(33),ToHitBuff(33)
30 => Aid Other ==> Interrupt(30)
32 => Hibernate ==> Rech(32)
35 => Aid Self ==> Heal(35),Heal(36),Heal(36),Interrupt(36),Interrupt(37),Rech(37)
38 => Foot Stomp ==> Acc(38),Dam(39),Dam(39),Dam(39),EndCost(40),Rech(40)
41 => Taunt ==> Taunt(41)
+---------------------------------------------
01 => Sprint ==> Empty(1)
01 => Brawl ==> Empty(1)
02 => Rest ==> Empty(1)
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
SBeaudway appreciate the time you spent posting your build. But even you squeeze it in, and by 41. Seems to me tankers arent skipping taunt alltogether, just delaying taking the power. Eventually its the best available choice on the board (ala NFL draft best player available).
I still don't think Taunt is a must have. I wasn't sure I was going to take any Epic powers post 41, so I had the free spot for taunt. It's not a bad suggestion for 1st time Tankers to take Taunt. Try before you buy and all. I didn't, but it's still not bad advice.
I am largely planning on taking Taunt for AVs. Although, I have not had problems holding their aggro in Faultline missions without it. I would take Taunt (or at least a ranged attack) on a Stone/ due to the limited mobility.
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
My level 50 tank does not have taunt, but I'm at work and can't post his build sorry. However I will say this, I found taunt to be fairly situational. As most have pointed out in a heated battle one can use it to snag runners provided your not at the cap.
Well because /axe was not available in scrapper secondaries I went with the tank and it still fit the concept rather well. I found that prior to the GDN I needed to do more damage as I mostly soloed due to odd play times. When teamed I made use of the soft control of knockback/down/up,(I even slotted my weakest attack with knockback and recharge for just this purpose) along with my aura to keep effective control. Gauntlet only added to it given the magnitude of the effect when nearby npcs are hit with an axe!
When managing crowds for a group I try to be mobile so when I see enemy health bars dropping I slowly start shifting position in a direction dragging them with me, so if I see a potential runner (a guy on the edges starting to pin-pong) I try to drag the cluster closer to that direction to lock him in the aura. Most of the time the bad guys are dead before I have to do this as many of the other Team has either killed or debuffed them to the point of death. Often when teamed I barely get a chance to swing at more than two badguys, they die so fast! Once I was teamed with a bunch of blasters and defenders who just oblitereated everything around me except one guy. I wondered why the fireworks had stopped when one of the blasters sent me a tell saying, "Well we felt like you should get a chance to play too." Then another blaster killed him and said "It was taking too long." I laughed it off.
My point is that usually in high power or well synergized teams, even our primary abilities (let alone those which tend to be situational) can be unnecessary. Tanking in a sense, just as taunt , can be situational. On teams that are so well protected by smart defenders and controllers I just tend to let loose but just keep a watchful eye just to make sure. If there is another tank I may let them take lead and hang back with the squishies in case of "unintended consequences" such as over aggro or surprise patrols. In short I define my role not based on the AT so much as on filling a team need. Which Is why I prize survivability. Yes I went the aid self route and it has saved me quite often against things that hit very hard.
I didn't optimize by getting every accolade so I'm neither the toughest nor the most damaging tank on the block but I'm not an obstacle easily dismissed either.
Shell game: Arc_ID:417344: It can't be good for humanity if the Circle of Thorns, Banished Pantheon and The Vahzilok are making deals.
A Final Solution: Arc_ID:402587: Earth is under stress. Every being she has spawned and some she hasn't want to possess her. Some of her children believe they have a way to put a stop to this and bring a peace.
Actually another one to add that seems to come up rather often and annoys the hell outta me when people repeat it.
Myth #9: A Stealthed Tanker Can't Hold Aggro.
There was a time before Gauntlet and Stealth Supression were added when the tanker could not tank while invisible. Apparently it was a good way to grief a team to toss Grant Invis on the tank in the middle of a giant pull (pre I3 here, so giant is appropriate) and break his aggro just as he pulled the mob to the team for fun and profit. The fear of granted stealth has become a common-sense instinct to the elder tankers and fear of its griefing possibilities have been passed down through the old storytelling tradition. now new tanks are indoctrinated in the belief that becoming transparent makes them suck, and nowdays that's just false.
I've only seen people complain about this a few times with my invuln tank, but with my illusion controller, I invariably get complaints if my Group Invis hits the tank.
All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.
But memories remain, And that is beautiful.
qr
Heh, as a fire/ blaster, I have a hard time not pulling aggro off tanks.
What is Guantlet?
- edit- nevermind, i found what it is.
Good post OP but you really should include another myth:
Myth: Gauntlet is enough to hold the agro
No, tanks don't have to take taunt itself to keep agro. But I don't know where so many new tanks seem to have gotten the idea that they will hold the agro from the rest of their team purely with the gauntlet from their attacks. Gauntlet alone is not enough.
Powerleveling� -- "For when there are no cheat codes."
"If you are treasure hunting on a battlefield wearing an enemy uniform, there is a high probability that you will be attacked." -Oyasumi_Nasai
With Taunt I can limit the amount of attacks or type of attacks that can be used on me or the rest of the team and in that way I lower incoming anything and help keep the team at there best potential.
The Tanker is the one AT that can truly control direction; rate; placement and the chance of happening of damage, debuffs and control attacks. Using Taunt you can outrange effects so they never even happen for the benefit of the team and still be in control of a AV. It cant hit you with it so why use it? AVs level of range isnt always more than enough on every attack. You could be gauntletting away on an AV thats using you as an anchor to debuff half the team and this neednt happen. You could be back away from team leaving the team undebuffed, never hit, and never controlled in more cases than you might think.
A Tanker imo could do better to know most of all for 99% of whats out there how any defender set or control set operates in order to offer them the best dynamic with which they can be most capable and ALL that is needed for the team.
When heals or debuffs dont meet the demand for the rest of the team its good to be able to have the damage channel through you only and that aint gonna happen with you standing next to everyone else for a group AoE photo. Hell in some cases of using taunt on an AV the team doesnt even get hit. RV AVs are doable with much less defeats than there is, even down to no defeats. We dont have to find a Rad, we dont have to get a Kin, we dont have to settle for Dark, empaths sets arent a must have, hell we can almost just about get by with any defender.
As a Fire/Fire I have been tohit debuffed to hell in the early levels by +4 Hurricane powers other people getting aggro I wouldnt consider my fault due to understandable slot priorities but taunt was the only thing that helped me do my job.
well, My favorite all-time tanker is an ice/fire fire and so, in all truth, taunt seems like supreme overkill.
Without taunt a single FSC plus icicles plus CE roots the aggro so firmly to me that when I team tank I need to turn icicles off if there is a non-ice tanker higher level than I am, because there isn't a snowball's chance that once I get aggro anyone short of an illusion controller's PA is going to pull off the aggro (I wish I had whatever taunt aura they are using!)
a simple fireball seems to be amazing for pulling aggro off of the squishies that have managed to pick up the stragglers
For general tanking the usefulness of taunt varies not only from team to team but from the tanks own powersets. Fire melee Tanker who took pyre mastery is a damn sight more aggro grabbing than Energy melee who took body mastery especially if just the first 2 powers. However on AVs the usefulness of taunt comes in on its own as you can better tank for anyone of the various types of defenders or controllers no matter what type of Tank you are.
Let me just chime in a bit for a sec with an observation...
First, taunt is only not needed if the rest of the team can make up for the deficiency, and since many teams can, it's often not a big issue.
Second, if the tank defines his role as "team protector", then Taunt is pretty much required. I have found Taunt to be equivalent to a defender's Heal Otther power in actual use. Instead of healing, the tank taunts the baddies off of the squishy who is taking tons of damage and dying. The net result is that the tank just scooped one of his teammates out of the fire.
It has been suggested in the past that a tank can merely jump out of the group of baddies surrouding him, jump near the baddies killing his teammates, let his taunt aura work on them, and then jump back into the group. Although this can sometimes work, it assumes that all of the baddies in the intial group are aggroed to the tank and will re-group back on him when he jumps back (it also assumes the tank has Leaping or super jump, what about tanks with SS, TP, or FLY?). In addition, it assumes that taunt auras aggro just as fast as Taunt, which is not true. More often than not the tank ends up spreading out the group of baddies by jumping out of his group of herded or aggroed baddies to another spot. This is bad for any AOEs that are working on the team, could cause a team wipe, and the tank may end up saving one teammate and putting another in jeopardy.
I have news for you guys... some teams just don't need tanks at all. I've even ran a tank on a team without his taunt aura on and without taunting, and we just mowed over the baddies without a hitch. Controllers also manage aggro, and if you have enough of them on the team, taunting in any form (including gauntlet) is entirely useless.
The bottom line is that a tank with both Taunt and a taunt aura is a better team protector than a tank with only a taunt aura. He simply has more tools at his disposal to protect the team.
Level 50s:
BlackSpectre, Dark Defender (Guardian)
Thorin, Invul/Axe Tank (Justice)
Volcano Juice, Fire/Stone Tank
Professor ?, Mind/FF Controller
Stone Forge, Stone/Fire Tank
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Second, if the tank defines his role as "team protector", then Taunt is pretty much required. I have found Taunt to be equivalent to a defender's Heal Otther power in actual use. Instead of healing, the tank taunts the baddies off of the squishy who is taking tons of damage and dying. The net result is that the tank just scooped one of his teammates out of the fire.
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Absolutely disagree. Taunt auras and gauntlet can do a fine job of grabbing and holding aggro. Taunt is no more 'needed' for a team tanker than an extra attack is. It depends on the playstyle and skill of the tanker, however. But taunt is not needed.
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It has been suggested in the past that a tank can merely jump out of the group of baddies surrouding him, jump near the baddies killing his teammates, let his taunt aura work on them, and then jump back into the group. Although this can sometimes work, it assumes that all of the baddies in the intial group are aggroed to the tank and will re-group back on him when he jumps back (it also assumes the tank has Leaping or super jump, what about tanks with SS, TP, or FLY?). In addition, it assumes that taunt auras aggro just as fast as Taunt, which is not true. More often than not the tank ends up spreading out the group of baddies by jumping out of his group of herded or aggroed baddies to another spot. This is bad for any AOEs that are working on the team, could cause a team wipe, and the tank may end up saving one teammate and putting another in jeopardy.
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If the mobs were surrounding the tanker before the leap, they will be taunted on him. Otherwise they would have broken off the tanker long before. And except for fire tanks, the pulse on most aggro auras is way faster than the taunt animation.
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The bottom line is that a tank with both Taunt and a taunt aura is a better team protector than a tank with only a taunt aura. He simply has more tools at his disposal to protect the team.
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A tool unused is a useless tool. If I can do a good job protecting a team without Taunt, why do I need it?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Good post OP but you really should include another myth:
Myth: Gauntlet is enough to hold the agro
No, tanks don't have to take taunt itself to keep agro. But I don't know where so many new tanks seem to have gotten the idea that they will hold the agro from the rest of their team purely with the gauntlet from their attacks. Gauntlet alone is not enough.
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Gauntlet is enough to hold aggro - if you've actually hit every enemy with Gauntlet. Just standing there and pounding on one enemy won't do it. Gauntlet works on your target and, at best, his 4 closest buddies. If there's a critter running towards the squishies, continuing to pound on the boss isn't going to help them.
This means that to make full use of Gauntlet, you need to change targets a lot; and if the enemy isn't standing next to you, you need to go over there to get him. Taunt helps because it eliminates the "go over there to get him" part (and I would certainly recommend it on Stone tanks with their reduced mobility), but it does nothing on enemies already standing next to you that couldn't have been done better with an attack or aura.
The biggest problem with most bad tank players isn't the lack of taunt, it's the lack of battle field awareness. They get into scrapper-lock, and only focus on the enemies next to themselves. If you actually want to 'tank', then you can pretty much ignore whatever's next to you: your attention should be on what isn't.
I'm sure I've looked at this before, and I'm actually kind of surprised its only 5 pages long or so.
After learning a bit of the game on the way to 50 with my blaster, I felt the urge to hit the other end of the spectrum. Stone overall has the highest survivability (if you want to argue that take your invul/ice/fire against 3 gms or avs and last longer than 3 minutes =) I went with stone.
Being a blaster first, learning to control my own aggro helped me avoid debt badges for a long time - up until rikti raids at least. Understanding the battlefield, taking care not to rush into the heat of battle and aggro a group i didn't see as I went after another happened rarely because the consequence was death and down time. Learning the strengths and limits of your abilities pretty much is the key to survivability in this game.
I too have gone solo for the majority of my tanker's career. All too often the teams I join have a tendency to blast away first, figure out what went wrong later. It gets very frustrating when you're already at aggro cap and a squishy decides to pull 10+ more they can't handle and I can't get.
But after being on both ends of the spectrum, I must say taunt should never be considered a requirement since skilled team players can manage without it for the most part. After all, there are teams that get by tankerless just fine, and i've been on a few that did better than with their tanked counterparts simply because of the level of skill.
I don't mind protecting my team, but I can do only so much to protect those who can't protect themselves.
With the aggro cap taunt is on the verge of uselesss. Your better to stick a couple recharge and a taunt enhancement in your PBAOE. The only real advantage to having taunt is that it's range, but because it is range using it can actually hurt a tankers ability to maintain aggro control as it can thinly spread the mobs that are aggroed on the tank.
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With the aggro cap taunt is on the verge of uselesss.
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thats quite overstated
Im assuming the OP hasn't played a tank or hasn't played one in a while. Everyone knows Gauntlet is still broken, ask any Scrapper and or Blaster teaming with a tank. . I agree with Blackspecter Tanks should HAVE taunt. As far as aura's go the strongest aura in the game is Mudpots do the math if you disagree. But again most people forget that taunt aura's only last as long as the enemy is close. Run far enough and the aura looses it potential. Taunt helps with an "insta lock" if you will. I can't remember how many times I out taunt aura tanks with merely one button press.
"If you can make a girl laugh, you can make her do anything"
"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
I even take taunt on brutes. In fact my one of my brutes has taunt, provoke and challenge.
I would never skip taunt on a tanker. I wouldnt kick a tanker without taunt but theyd have a shorter leash.
I routinely evaluate tankers and brutes on their ability to hold agro. If you cant do it, then Id rather team with someone else.