Cross-sever influence transfer?
By
13th_Stranger,
Posted on: 2007-03-08 09:32 in The Market and Inventions
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Except that showing prices doesn't drive down prices in other games either. It seems to drive them UP.
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No, it doesn't. I play EQ right now where showing prices almost always leads to prices being lowered. I've seen it happen today.
What game are you talking about. If that game has a straight or normal auction, then it's not visible pricing, it's the fact that it's an auction. A consignment system always leads to lower prices.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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What game are you talking about. If that game has a straight or normal auction, then it's not visible pricing, it's the fact that it's an auction. A consignment system always leads to lower prices.
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QFT. This is not an Auction House. It is a Consignment House. There are not ongoing bids. There are Sell Orders, Buy Orders, and Offers. Showing prices will cause competition. It will also prevent the market from being saturated with worthless crap in hopes of hitting a "jackpot". If devs want to prevent "twinking", this is not the way to do it. It doesn't work, anyway. Lvl 48-53 DO's are much less common than the TO's that were mentioned in Positron's example, which oversimplified human response, anyway.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
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What this all amounts too is that people will feel like they are walking into a casino rather than a consignment shop. Even looking to make the simple transaction, you will be worried about getting somehow screwed either by the system itself, or another player, or the lack of knowledge on how it works and screwing yourself. My thinking...pretend I9 never happened and just hope I10 brings some useable content to the game.
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You can still make full use of the Inventions system without using the consignment shop. The consignment shop is an optional extra. If you don't like it, don't use it. I plan to use inventions, but I don't plan to use the consignment shop.
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True.
However that is a bit like saying that:
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You can make full use of the enhancement system without ever using the NPC vendors.
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In both cases you most certainly can. However the [ilikelyhood[/i] of getting complete sets w/o using Wentworths is likely to be significatly lower, just like the likelyhood of getting completely slotted with 50 SO's is significantly lower without use of NPC vendors nowadays.
Yes, you can get the "gang of 5" without breaking a sweat - that being Dam, Acc, Endrdx, Rchrdx and Range(?). However, the rest of them are remarkably rare. How many 51+ SO's do you have slotted that are for Defence, Resist, Heal, Endmod (as in stamina), Tohitbuff, Taunt, Mez, et al. I sure don't have many, and I've got a year or two under my belt.
Since we HAVE to get 51+ via drops, you begin to see the problem.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
Zen If you are doing a quick reply to the thread as a whole, ignore this response. I didn't understand your post as it related to mine but I attempted to address it. If it was a QR, next time please let me know 
.
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Now let me get this straight, players with loads of influence are unlikely to go looking for enhancements with this new system. Nor do they "need" to auction their enhancements when they can just sell them and add to their already vast sums of money. So, no reason to go to the auction house other than recipes. Guess the recipes will likely go towards the largest servers.
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I think you are correct, but I would change "Guess the recipies will go towards the largest servers" to "Guess the recipies will go those with the most Inf." Except for the bit about the low-balling of prices, which was my whole point about the Devs wanting this issue to be more about the inventions and less about the psuedo-economy.
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New players will likely find everyone lowballing enhancement prices right around where the stores would buy them at. Which means from a seller standpoint, why would anyone sell anything when the prices are that low? It is less hassle to just sell them to the nearest store rather than WAIT for an auction to finish. So, few people will likely sell enhancements at the auction house. This in turn makes it easier for the players to do what the developers don't seem to want them to do, which is absolutely hillarious.
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I don't understand about the enhancements bit, I do intend to put up some 53 SOs that I can't give away because I don't have an SG at the moment.
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I can't believe that developers who live in America with all of its examples of free markets would think of this system as being anything but another drag in CoX.
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Our system favors those on top and I think the Devs are trying to steer away from that as much as possible. For good or ill, it's the conclusion I've drawn from what I've read.
The main body of my post was a request to have a way to transfer inf to my lower level characters. I would still love to see that.
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Except that showing prices doesn't drive down prices in other games either. It seems to drive them UP.
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No, it doesn't. I play EQ right now where showing prices almost always leads to prices being lowered. I've seen it happen today.
What game are you talking about. If that game has a straight or normal auction, then it's not visible pricing, it's the fact that it's an auction. A consignment system always leads to lower prices.
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I'm no economics expert (as I'm sure you know by now) and the games I have played most recently include WoW and Anarchy Online. I also hear frequent reports from Dark Age of Camelot and occaisionally from FF XI.
WoW:
I haven't payed attention until now, but my roommate constantly bragged about buying low and selling high in WoW (until he quit MMO world completely for awhile). Long after the level grind became boring, or when he did not have enough time to raid, he would log in long enough to buy up and locating popular items in off hours).
AO:
At the time I was in Anarchy Online, there was no market minigame per se, but since that game is all about the twink and grind (it's still a fun, well-made game with cool visuals if beginning to show it's age), there was a lot of Guild based control of resources. You could get nowhere as a loner, because in order to wear the equipment you need to take on even-cons, you have to have buffs that allow you to slot implants that allow you to use the nanotech that enables you to build the better implants so you can buff higher in order to wear the better equipment. If you can't do all the buffing, equipment locating, nano activating, and implant assembling yourself (in which case you have no skills left to fight with) you have to suck up to a guild and pay whatever they say, no questions asked, yes sir and please maam. Because the stuff you need (not want, so you can take on +4s, but NEED so you can take on -1s) appears randomly in stores or not at all.
EQ: Played it for about 5 minutes on a friend's account. Then got sucked into Asheron's Call for the storyline and friends that were already playing.
Perhaps my experience is somewhat skewed.
I see two major differences here:
- You don't need IOs for PvE. Therefore, you can ignore high prices until low prices come around, or until you can get what you need from drops or friends. And you can always place a standing order at the price you are willing to pay.
- You can't walk in and buy the 3 items priced below your mark and resell them high. Well you can, but your item may not sell because of the pricing history. You have to then spend extra money and time buying and selling to yourself to drive the price up.
One additional point:
- If it comes down to it, I'd rather the Devs try out the blind bid system now and change it to an open price system later, than do the opposite.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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The sociology and psychology of economics here is fascinating. All this drama from a simple system designed around pricing an item or offering for an item based on gut feeling alone.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Low levels are transitory. Only the endgame matters.
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Bull<bleep>. How much time have you logged playing characters at level 50 as compared to the time you've logged playing characters below 50? Just breaking even on the time spent to level up a single 50 would put my balance towards the below-50 play. I could be an outlier, but with all the talk I see about alt-itis, I doubt that's the case.
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In both cases you most certainly can. However the [ilikelyhood[/i] of getting complete sets w/o using Wentworths is likely to be significatly lower, just like the likelyhood of getting completely slotted with 50 SO's is significantly lower without use of NPC vendors nowadays.
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Yes, but we have the vendors, so we can get fully stocked with SOs. The stores also provide very quick and reliable places to buy and sell. I don't need to fully slot with IOs. I can take whatever IOs I pick up in my adventures.
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Yes, you can get the "gang of 5" without breaking a sweat - that being Dam, Acc, Endrdx, Rchrdx and Range(?). However, the rest of them are remarkably rare. How many 51+ SO's do you have slotted that are for Defence, Resist, Heal, Endmod (as in stamina), Tohitbuff, Taunt, Mez, et al. I sure don't have many, and I've got a year or two under my belt.
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Not applicable at this point. I can't use anything past level 50.
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Since we HAVE to get 51+ via drops, you begin to see the problem.
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I'm not particularly concerned about getting the slight boosts to abilities with 51+ enhancements. Again, I can just use what drops. I'm not a min/max type.
I have nothing against the consignment shops. I'm sure they'll get a lot of use, at least early on. But as far as I can tell from what I've heard so far, I'd rather not bother with them, and they're not necessary. If they got rid of all the vendors where you can buy SOs, then the consignment shops would be far more important. [And I would be very grumpy.]
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Low levels are transitory. Only the endgame matters.
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Bull<bleep>.
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I'll echo that sentiment. There is not end game in this game as far as I'm concerned. The vast bulk of the content is on the way to 50. In my case, getting IOs at 50 would be pretty pointless for combat purposes and not unlike picking up badges that I've missed. Meanwhile, getting IOs much earlier in the game could be quite useful.
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Player A1 puts up a Level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.
Player B1 puts up the same Level 12 TO for 1,000 inf.
Player A2 (trying to transfer funds) offers to buy that level 12 TO for 5,000,000 inf.
Since player B1 wants less, and is obviously trying to move his items faster, his "for sale" is processed first, so he ends up with 5,000,000 inf (minus fees).
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What I totally fail to comprehend in this scenario is why the transfer doesn't go through for 1,000 inf.
More specifically, Positron, why does making the transfer go through at the offered price rather than the asking price improve my gameplay experience?
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
Maybe its an attempt to train players to offer less for items or risk (grossly) overpaying? And the cheaper items being sold first to train sellers to sell for less lest they sit on unsold items?
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Maybe its to train players to offer less for items or risk (grossly) overpaying? And the cheaper items being sold first to train sellers to sell for less lest they sit on unsold items?
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Except it won't really do both. What it will do is train buyers to offer low at first. But after some sellers get burned trying to lowball their sale prices (hoping to make inf quicker) they'll learn that offering a rare Advanced Cryogenics Widget for 1 inf is not a good idea. Because the odds are, that's what it will sell for. This is very artificial competition. Not to mention the possibility for manipulating the 'last ten items sold' information. That alone gives me the willies.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
But why would they offer it *that* low? If its indeed that rare an item, why not offer it at half the average price or somesuch?
And how sophisticated do you think the average WentPrime buyer or seller is going to be, just out of curiosity?
The average player who never comes to the boards, doesn't read guides, tutorials, or popup boxes:
- As a buyer, he will offer 80-120% of the highest recent sale price of the item, if he wants it, and if that amount is less than 50% of his cash on hand.
- As a seller, he will price his item at 80-120% of the most recent sale price, spending up to 20% of his cash on hand of the list price.
Most players, who are not trying to game the system, are not going to be selling things for 1 inf or offering 2 inf for rare-looking items.
Now a significant minority if players will betrying to game the system.
Those are the guys who will be squealing when their influence/item transfer gets intercepted, and crowing when they earn millions from selling a common TO. They will be complaining about the fact that they are constantly losing sales to people who undervalue their items. They will be moaning about the short listing times, high listing fees, and 'having to buy back their own items'. They'll be lobbying for a larger transaction inventory, and for a way to 'label' items to advertise their own sales.
Most people will sell and buy based on gut feelings. They will sell frequently (often making much more than they intended) and buy on the first try.
IMHO.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Now a significant minority if players will betrying to game the system.
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Bingo, Kitsune9tails! And that's specifically why I've been so vocal about this topic. I'm all but begging the devs to change it before it goes live. As it is, the system can be gamed by that minority, and it will do little but hurt the average WentPrime customer. I'm not saying, and haven't really ever meant to imply, that the system wouldn't work for 'most sales'. In fact, it probably will. But there will be a minority of clients (players) who will horribly abuse the holes in the system.
To me, this system seems more designed to prevent twinking than about protecting either buyers or sellers. I think we can all agree (or I hope so anyway) that it will be possible to manipulate the market. Even if not by oneself, as a part of a "cartel". That's just unfair, and I believe that the devs can do better than this to stop it.
My Guide to Illusion/Kinetics Control.
CoH_Player_101: It's okay. Your choice in avatars makes up for a world of indiscretion.
The average player who never comes to the boards, doesn't read guides, tutorials, or popup boxes:
...will have learned to creep up on prices from the low end after about a week.
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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To me, this system seems more designed to prevent twinking than about protecting either buyers or sellers. I think we can all agree (or I hope so anyway) that it will be possible to manipulate the market. Even if not by oneself, as a part of a "cartel". That's just unfair, and I believe that the devs can do better than this to stop it.
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The only way it prevents twinking is by the risk involved with trying to use it to pass inf. to an alt. We can still twink the way we always have: let a friend pass the inf. between our characters, do it with 2 accounts, or post a request on the boards to transfer between servers. The consignment house does nothing to stop that. No AH system is designed to stop that, not can one be developed that would stop that.
Since you claim that this system allows a player or a "cartel" to control the market, please point out to me a system that does not allow a player or cartel to control the market. We already know that in games where prices and sellers are not kept secret, many players snatch up the lowest priced items and re-list them for a higher price. So I'm curious as to what system would keep that from happening.
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In both cases you most certainly can. However the [ilikelyhood[/i] of getting complete sets w/o using Wentworths is likely to be significatly lower, just like the likelyhood of getting completely slotted with 50 SO's is significantly lower without use of NPC vendors nowadays.
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Yes, but we have the vendors, so we can get fully stocked with SOs. The stores also provide very quick and reliable places to buy and sell. I don't need to fully slot with IOs. I can take whatever IOs I pick up in my adventures.
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The italicised part of your quote is true, but leads on to this .....
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Yes, you can get the "gang of 5" without breaking a sweat - that being Dam, Acc, Endrdx, Rchrdx and Range(?). However, the rest of them are remarkably rare. How many 51+ SO's do you have slotted that are for Defence, Resist, Heal, Endmod (as in stamina), Tohitbuff, Taunt, Mez, et al. I sure don't have many, and I've got a year or two under my belt.
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Not applicable at this point. I can't use anything past level 50.
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You're missing the point. I'm not talking about whether 51's are necessary, I'm talking about the NUMBER of SO L51 enhancements that drop that are not the "gang of 5". The reason I cite 51's is that they are drop only, which is where the rare IO's will be for you if you don't use Wentworths. I'm also not talking about fully slotting with IO's, I agree that'll be as likely as fully slotting with HO's in today's game.
However, if you need a certain rare IO to complete a set, my point is that you may be waiting till issue 17 if you're going to only use what drops for you, and not visit Wentworths.
If you believe that Wentworths will not speed up the process of completing IO sets, then I have to tell you that you are very sadly mistaken.
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If they got rid of all the vendors where you can buy SOs, then the consignment shops would be far more important. [And I would be very grumpy.]
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You've just described exactly the state of affairs for IO's. I'm not sure why you're not grumpy about it.
Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane.
@Alissara - an Angry Angel
The Angry Angels. When it absolutely positively has to be spanked today.
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You're missing the point. I'm not talking about whether 51's are necessary, I'm talking about the NUMBER of SO L51 enhancements that drop that are not the "gang of 5". The reason I cite 51's is that they are drop only, which is where the rare IO's will be for you if you don't use Wentworths. I'm also not talking about fully slotting with IO's, I agree that'll be as likely as fully slotting with HO's in today's game.
However, if you need a certain rare IO to complete a set, my point is that you may be waiting till issue 17 if you're going to only use what drops for you, and not visit Wentworths.
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I can live with that.
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If you believe that Wentworths will not speed up the process of completing IO sets, then I have to tell you that you are very sadly mistaken.
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Sure it will speed up the process. Those that are concerned about completing IO sets should definitely consider making a lot of use of the consignment shops. I don't consider the gain to be worth the time and effort though. It's a bit like spawn camping and farming. They can speed up the process of getting what you want. Some people enjoy those things, some don't, and I don't.
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If they got rid of all the vendors where you can buy SOs, then the consignment shops would be far more important. [And I would be very grumpy.]
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You've just described exactly the state of affairs for IO's. I'm not sure why you're not grumpy about it.
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Because I have the SOs! The IOs aren't that much better. The IOs are extra flavor that I can use as I find them.
The weird thing is - if set IO's really turn out to be rare - as in "wait til Issue 17" rare, there's no way in hell they'll ever be at the consignment shop. No amount of influence will ever be enough. Yep, you guessed it, we've entered the realm of "Trade only". God, I hate those words. 
Addendum for minor doom - if that happens, expect RMT (real money trading) to happen. They go hand in hand, those two.
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Addendum for minor doom - if that happens, expect RMT (real money trading) to happen. They go hand in hand, those two.
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Bah. NCSoft is a Korean company, COH is supposed to be a casual game. I'd expect to see them offer items for purchase via microtransactions like Exteel is supposed to offer before they let farmers start populating things. Besides, isn't the drop system supposed to be relatively farming-unfriendly/inefficient?
Oh - and I'll point to the GvE goodie pack as precedent and proof that its possible.
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Besides, isn't the drop system supposed to be relatively farming-unfriendly/inefficient?
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If you got a room of guys chained to desks for 16 hours a day, many things become possible.
That being said, I don't expect farming to be that big an issue, unless the scarcity is a lot higher than what I'm expecting.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Low levels are transitory. Only the endgame matters.
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I seriously hope you're joking...
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Everyone plays for different reasons, and for some people this is true. In my case, that statement is almost completely untrue, however. Even after playing for 15+ months, I still haven't bothered getting any of my characters up to 50 (the highest is 41, and the next highest is 20).
I enjoy alt-ing a lot, and even with my namesake 41, exemplar a TON. Perhaps I'm being a "st00p1d n00b," but I find the creative parts of the game and the journey a lot more interesting than the max level destination. With origin specific attacks, i8, VR and my GVE perks, making new characters is even more interesting to me than ever before!
I will eventually get my 41 up to 50, but if there's *any* big reason for that, it's be because I can make a squid, and even then I'm not massively motivated to hit the big 5-0. Its entirely possible that I'll just "get there" eventually from socially playing with friends or some folks I know who are constantly offering to PL me (I've missed a lot of content already due to social running friends's missions and sk'ing, so I actually remade the character to play through and see stuff - good so far!).
He's not wrong in his statement provided its not being provided as an absolute truth of the game. If he is, well, then yes, he's wrong because it provides too limited a reason for people playing. Otherwise its his opinion, a statement of his personal motivation, etc.