I think it's pretty clear that the game designers didn't have much awareness of the impact of animation time on game balance or power effectiveness. For example: Gravity Control had only one power (and a soft control, at that) that animated in fewer than 2.1 seconds, while Fire Control had only one that took appreciably longer than one second.
Given that, I suspect that the original use case for the novas was as a last-ditch panic button, and the designers weren't aware of the impact that varying animation times would have on the practical application of the power to that scenario.
[ QUOTE ]
Yea but when the Human Torch goes nova, he can melt Ultron to slag.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? Things have changed in the past 14 years, I guess. The only time this happened when I collected comics ('86 - '92) was during the Secret Wars crossover/miniseries, and the Torch emphatically didn't melt Ultron to slag, he only incapacitated him. "I guess something non-adamantium inside him must have melted" was his comment.
But then, the real miracle in that scene was that Captain America was able to hide behind his shield not 20 feet from the action and emerge unscathed 
Scrap
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea but when the Human Torch goes nova, he can melt Ultron to slag.
When I go nova, there's still two remaining Devouring Earth bosses that chuckle and then proceed to introduce my hero's face to a radical pummeling and an opportunity to use my HMO copay on the teleport to the hospital. 
[/ QUOTE ]
When the Human Torch goes nova, he's usually actually begun the fight and gotten a few hits in before he uses up everything he has in one final blow.
It's not an alpha strike. It's the omega strike. You gotta wound the bad guys first.
[/ QUOTE ]
That, and Johnny doesn't light up every 5 minutes. If they make the recharge on it once every couple months, I'll be all for having it do "guaranteed victory" type damage.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they were:
1. Really fast, so you could use them in an emergency
[/ QUOTE ]
Just out of curiousity, do you feel that Dreadful Wail is well-designed then, given its one-second activation time?
[/ QUOTE ]
My highest sonic is like 20, so I don't have first hand experience with Dreadful Wail, but nofuture lists DW's activation time as 1.97, or about 2 seconds. I think an emergency power should have an activation time of about 1 second. DW also has a stun, which lasts longer than knockback typically incapacitates for (11.92 seconds, apparently) which is good, but lower than the crash incapacitates the blaster in return, not so good.
DW does bring up the interesting point, though, that some nukes seem better designed to be alpha strike weapons, because they have disabling effects (what's the point of disabling a dead target) which would be useful if you could continue to attack the remaining targets. If I were designing the nukes, because I like diversity, I would strongly consider making two, possibly three types:
Type 1: Blizzard, Dreadful Wail, Thunderous Blast
Design: designed to do heavy damage (basically as now) and incapacitate in some fashion the targets; the crash does not crash endurance to zero, it just stops recovery. This allows follow up attacks to eliminate remaining targets.
Type 2: powers such as nova, inferno
Design: does somewhat more damage than currently (i.e. circa 20% more damage), crashes to zero, stops recovery for a short period (circa 5 to 10 seconds maximum). Activates in one second or less, but can be designed as a DoT to allow for longer more interesting animations; first wave of damage and associated secondary effects strike within one second.
Type 3: powers such as full auto, rain of arrows
Design: not true nukes; designed to offer significant firepower more frequently, but at a much lower damage level than the high end nukes. No significant crash.
Something like that. I'd probably want to fiddle around with the mechanics of the powers (like range) a little more, but that's what I would do if I were designing them.
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[ QUOTE ]
DW does bring up the interesting point, though, that some nukes seem better designed to be alpha strike weapons, because they have disabling effects (what's the point of disabling a dead target) which would be useful if you could continue to attack the remaining targets. If I were designing the nukes, because I like diversity, I would strongly consider making two, possibly three types:
Type 1: Blizzard, Dreadful Wail, Thunderous Blast
Design: designed to do heavy damage (basically as now) and incapacitate in some fashion the targets; the crash does not crash endurance to zero, it just stops recovery. This allows follow up attacks to eliminate remaining targets.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wrote the activation time while I was at work, but I'll check it out again now that I'm home and am downloading the patch. It may indeed be 1.97 seconds- I haven't played my level 39 Sonic/Elec for about 3 weeks now. It just seemed to be pretty much a click-boom power from what I recall.
I can certainly try to post a demo, if you like (I should learn how to do such things anyway- I know it's not hard), or provide anything else I can regarding Dreadful Wail if you would like to know anything about it. Indeed, I could meet you in-game and show it to you, but I'm on Liberty server if that's any problem at all.
I have three blasters at nuke level- Energy, Ice and Sonic, and so far the Sonic seems to have the best nuke, but my Ice is only 32 so I'm comparing a fully-slotted nuke with a one-slotted nuke so it's not yet a fair comparison.
Life - a sexually transmitted terminal condition.
I get the roleplay aspect of these. That's fine.
The thing I don't get is why the crash is a fixed time.
If I invest in slots in Stamina, or find a teammate with Speedboost so my End recovers faster, then why does that +Recovery not affect my post-nova downtime?
I would love to see these reworked to negate X amount of recovery ticks. So if my recovery is faster, I'm floored at 0 for less time.
Maybe the baseline unbuffed downtime needs to be enhanced so average 3-SO Stamina user is still at 15 seconds.
Maybe even allow the Novas to be directly slotted to reduce downtime. Have the downtime be part of the End cost, and so reduced by End Reduc slotting.
[ QUOTE ]
Probably the best way to answer this is to refer to comics -- When The Human Torch 'goes nova' he puts everything he has into it and pretty much knocks himself out. That's the 'feel' these powers are meant to reflect.
As for MoG, no comment at this time.
[/ QUOTE ]Tobad. They used to feel that way back when they effected every mob and did way more damage, now they are just AOE's that drain your end, and take longer to get off.
I've got experience with the following final blast powers: BlackStar, Inferno, Dreadful Wail, Blizzard and Full Auto.
I have to say, I was shocked at how quick the animation for Dreadful Wail was compared to the other two PbAoE nukes I've used, Blackstar and Inferno which both share the typical Nova "oh god I'm really constipated" animation. Especially given the useful secondary effect of DW, with its Mag 3 Stun, and given that it appears in a set with an AoE Sleep.
From a use perspective, it feels like a much safer, quicker nuke to use than the other two I've used, even with Blackstar's impressive To Hit Debuff for defenders (62.5% according to CoD)
I do wonder if perhaps the damage for Nukes is balanced around the assumption that you'll be using damage buffs such as Aim, BU, Inspirations, and the like with them.
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[ QUOTE ]
I would suggest that this would represent the *lower* limit of how much damage nova should do: since a solo heroic mission can spawn a +1 LT, nova should be guaranteed to kill such a critter, if its designed to incapacitate the blaster completely.
[/ QUOTE ]
/agree
I think their current design is left over from the days of 5-6 slotted damage.
PS: I also like the three design idea.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Probably the best way to answer this is to refer to comics -- When The Human Torch 'goes nova' he puts everything he has into it and pretty much knocks himself out. That's the 'feel' these powers are meant to reflect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not questioning the conceptual validity of the crash, but rather whether they do enough damage given the crash.
I would suggest that this would represent the *lower* limit of how much damage nova should do: since a solo heroic mission can spawn a +1 LT, nova should be guaranteed to kill such a critter, if its designed to incapacitate the blaster completely.
Doesn't it seem reasonable, Castle, that if the big bangs are conceptually designed to incapacitate the blaster, at the very least they should be capable of delivering a *guaranteed* kill on a heroic solo spawn, assuming no extraordinary resistances? Extra damage beyond that would be extra damage beyond that: useful for people who run on invincible, for increasing the utility of the power in teams, etc.
Edit: assuming it hits at all: I'm not advocating for nova to be autohit
[/ QUOTE ]
Nova with 3 damage SOs + Aim + Build Up + 1 small damage inspiration = 87.5% chance of killing a non-resistant +1 Lieutenant. I think this is a perfectly reasonable amount of damage for the drawbacks of the power. I don't think there should be a guaranteed one-shot AoE kill for +1 Lieuts; I think it should stay as a high chance of one-shot kill as it is currently.
It's pretty obvious to me that these powers are not intended to be used as alpha strikes; just look at the way the NPCs are programmed to use these type of powers, and you can see that they are intended to be used as "oh <bleep>" powers, when you're losing a fight and need that extra boost to tip the scales in your favor.
By the way, as currently set up, Nova at the damage cap has an 87.5% chance of killing any non-resistant +2 Lt at any level, and +3 Lts for level 47-50 Blasters (this is due to the uneven increase of player damage vs. NPC hit points as you level).
<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no disorient in Nova.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no disorient in Nova.
[/ QUOTE ]
Further, there's no self-disorient as a result of any Nuke. Also, Acrobatics and Combat Jumping wouldn't protect from a disorient anyways, since they're Knockback+Hold and Immobolization protection respectively.
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[ QUOTE ]
The thing about Nova is that the damage varies by mob. The 1st tick of smashing damage and 1st tick of energy damage are guaranteed. There is a 75% chance of a 2nd tick of energy damage, plus a 50% chance of a 3rd tick of energe damage (if the 2nd tick occurred). Based on my testing, these percentages are applied on a mob by mob basis - there is not a uniform test against all mobs in a spawn. It is quite possible for Nova to leave lieutenants alive if they only get hit by the initial ticks.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, am I right that Aim and Build-Up have lowered Accuracy buffs now?
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
[ QUOTE ]
Probably the best way to answer this is to refer to comics -- When The Human Torch 'goes nova' he puts everything he has into it and pretty much knocks himself out. That's the 'feel' these powers are meant to reflect.
As for MoG, no comment at this time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but they can only hit 16 foes now so, IMHO, the Torchy feel is gone.
Shouldn't they be changed to something more functional like AR's Full Auto or Archery's Rain of Arrows? I know when I play either of these Blasters I can contribute much more to teams than with the other Torch-styled Nukes.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no disorient in Nova.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay which nova power does disorient? I know I have seen players shoot off a tier 32 nova and then do the "Drunk Walk" due to the power of the nuke.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yea but when the Human Torch goes nova, he can melt Ultron to slag.
When I go nova, there's still two remaining Devouring Earth bosses that chuckle and then proceed to introduce my hero's face to a radical pummeling and an opportunity to use my HMO copay on the teleport to the hospital.
[/ QUOTE ]
When the Human Torch goes nova, he's usually actually begun the fight and gotten a few hits in before he uses up everything he has in one final blow.
It's not an alpha strike. It's the omega strike. You gotta wound the bad guys first.
Snapshot
[/ QUOTE ]
Amen to this.
I see Nova as a "Halway through the fight we need this spawn dead NOW" kind of a thing.
This, after 6 levels of debt-capping due to Alpha-ing with it.
Just like RoF on my Corruptor, it's designed to kill mobs I've already weakened.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no disorient in Nova.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay which nova power does disorient? I know I have seen players shoot off a tier 32 nova and then do the "Drunk Walk" due to the power of the nuke.
[/ QUOTE ]
None of them. They'd only be doing the Drunk Walk if they got hit with a Disorient while Nova was animating.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
Does the nuke from En/En Nova leave the blaster disoriented? I ask because I have never had this happen after I fire off Nova, I pop a few blues and finish off whoever is left. I am also running CJ and Accrobatics so that maybe why I am not getting disoriented. My blaster is only lvl 32 so I don't know if it will disorient my blaster as she gets higher in lvl's and in power.
Thanx for the info.
[/ QUOTE ]
There's no disorient in Nova.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay which nova power does disorient? I know I have seen players shoot off a tier 32 nova and then do the "Drunk Walk" due to the power of the nuke.
[/ QUOTE ]
None of them. They'd only be doing the Drunk Walk if they got hit with a Disorient while Nova was animating.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmmmmmmmmm.....that is probably it- I always associated the drunk walk with the blaster being wobbly after "shooting their load off"
Thanx Dysmal.
"I'm not scared of anyone or anything Angie. Isn't that the way life should be?"
Jack Hawksmoor, The Authority.
Nova way back when used to disorent the caster. They changed that thankfully.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Probably the best way to answer this is to refer to comics -- When The Human Torch 'goes nova' he puts everything he has into it and pretty much knocks himself out. That's the 'feel' these powers are meant to reflect.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not questioning the conceptual validity of the crash, but rather whether they do enough damage given the crash.
I would suggest that this would represent the *lower* limit of how much damage nova should do: since a solo heroic mission can spawn a +1 LT, nova should be guaranteed to kill such a critter, if its designed to incapacitate the blaster completely.
Doesn't it seem reasonable, Castle, that if the big bangs are conceptually designed to incapacitate the blaster, at the very least they should be capable of delivering a *guaranteed* kill on a heroic solo spawn, assuming no extraordinary resistances? Extra damage beyond that would be extra damage beyond that: useful for people who run on invincible, for increasing the utility of the power in teams, etc.
Edit: assuming it hits at all: I'm not advocating for nova to be autohit
[/ QUOTE ]
Nova with 3 damage SOs + Aim + Build Up + 1 small damage inspiration = 87.5% chance of killing a non-resistant +1 Lieutenant. I think this is a perfectly reasonable amount of damage for the drawbacks of the power. I don't think there should be a guaranteed one-shot AoE kill for +1 Lieuts; I think it should stay as a high chance of one-shot kill as it is currently.
It's pretty obvious to me that these powers are not intended to be used as alpha strikes; just look at the way the NPCs are programmed to use these type of powers, and you can see that they are intended to be used as "oh <bleep>" powers, when you're losing a fight and need that extra boost to tip the scales in your favor.
By the way, as currently set up, Nova at the damage cap has an 87.5% chance of killing any non-resistant +2 Lt at any level, and +3 Lts for level 47-50 Blasters (this is due to the uneven increase of player damage vs. NPC hit points as you level).
[/ QUOTE ]I dissagree 100% The Nukes were in fact designed to be Alpha strikes. They were designed to kill everything within there area of effect, which is why the drawback is there. They made nukes so much weaker now, and honsetly I rarely use them. They used to be a tacticcal advantage, now they are a "well I'm probably going to die anyway, may as well give it a shot" power. WHich sux.
meh to the above, i can't see Blizzard being an alpha to anything other than Rikti Monkies
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31 Legendary Bot 8 Ice/em Tank
29 Eloquent Earth/storm troller
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The thing about Nova is that the damage varies by mob. The 1st tick of smashing damage and 1st tick of energy damage are guaranteed. There is a 75% chance of a 2nd tick of energy damage, plus a 50% chance of a 3rd tick of energe damage (if the 2nd tick occurred). Based on my testing, these percentages are applied on a mob by mob basis - there is not a uniform test against all mobs in a spawn. It is quite possible for Nova to leave lieutenants alive if they only get hit by the initial ticks.
[/ QUOTE ]
And, am I right that Aim and Build-Up have lowered Accuracy buffs now?
[/ QUOTE ]
They don't have lowered buffs, however the correct values of the buffs are now known. And note, they are tohit buffs, not accuracy buffs. For blasters:
Aim: 37.5% +tohit / 62.5% +damage
BU: 15.0% +tohit / 100.0% +damage
Ok just to ad my tuppeneth.
It's obvious that the devs whant _some_ kind of balancing disadvantage to nuke-type powers, currently these are heavily slanted toward zero end and killing end recovery for a while.
How would people feel about a % health reduction as part of the down side (and less severe end penalty). I mean %-age of _current_ health here. Making the penalty less severe the worse off you are, that would be nice for the finisher-style nukes yes?
But I do agree that activation times need to be lower for this to work. I can understand why that would be a no-no as the devs seem to associate that with re-doing that actual animation not just the timing.
Hmmmm what about this as a formula:
1. Keep animations the same (for minimum art team time)
2. Near instant short mob-disorient/stun (depending) pulse 2+ sec unenhanceable.
3. The normal delay between activation and detonation (to match the animation)
That would require changing the power metadata only, but without sending the animations back to the art team.
First Off... Thunderous Blast.. DOES Drain End as well as stop Recovery.. just so you know.
The state that our Nukes are in right now, pales in comparison to when we first got them. OHH the pleasure of just laying low huge teams of Villains... we sacrificed that in the name of stopping Herding PLers...which I don't mind that... but you have to compensate on the other side.
I like the idea of having it either Crash your End.. or stop the recovery.. NOT BOTH.
Castle.. thanks for stopping in too.. used to be, States and Positron would come by... I think we scared them off 
I just respecced BACK into my Nuke last night. Teamed up with Inertial, an NRG/NRG Blaster... in tandem it was STILL a thing of Beauty.. just wish that they could be worked up some to be a bit more feasible as a tactical option instead of for Poops and giggles.
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