What did you do just cut and paste the info from somewhere? Worst guide ever.
Nerf unto others as you would have them nerf unto you.
[url="http://boards.cityofvillains.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=faq&Number=5935090&fpart=&PHPSESSID="]The Teqnikal way to build a raid base v1.0[/url]
Sinister, you say that pistols are bad places to put skill in to but you never say why...so WHY are they bad?
[ QUOTE ]
---------------
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
---------------
[/ QUOTE ]
...and that's where you lost me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
---------------
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
---------------
[/ QUOTE ]
...and that's where you lost me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The Thugs MM pistol attacks are without a doubt the coolest thing about the set...and they do pretty good DPS as well. I have all three of them and use them constantly. A Thugs Mastermind (with Pistol attacks) is like having a team of five mini-blasters, one SS/Inv Brute, and one mini-corrupter (I'm Thugs/Dark so I heal and debuff as needed). What a waste to skip your attacks...and boring as well.
Here's why I chose to get the Pistols and Dual Wield powers, as well as Air Superiority:
Warning: My thug/Dark is only up to level 19 so far, so take all this with a grain of salt, I don't know how well the tactic will perform in the future. That said, I'm going to find out. I suspect that, at least solo, it will be a great way to play, and I also suspect that, by the time I need/want to team, I will have a ll the versatility expected of a cookie cutter mastermind.
I happen to be playing Thug/Dark, with provoke, dual wield and the pistols power, Air Superiority for it's ability to knockdown. With all the tools available I can tank like a tank against all but AOE capable enemies. The only reason I feel any pain right now is due to the outlevelled enhancements (my fault I outlevelled them really.)
The Tankermind mentality requires that you grab as much aggro away from at least your pets, and maximize resistance while minimizing Defense. Yup, as a tankermind you want to get hit, just not for as much damage. If you can focus the aggro on yourself, with a combination of taunts and attacks, your henchmen will drop your enemies very quickly. The attack command should generally be relegated to taking out AOE enemies faster.
To give you some numbers:
lvl 19 MM HP: 322.8
lvl 19 Enforcer HP: 305
lvl 17 Punk/Arsonist HP: 205
With your two Punks, your Arsonist, and your first Enforcer out, that equates to 920 HP combined. If they are all on Bodyguard mode, they will take two thirds of all damage coming your way. At this level, if you can deal with aoe attacks properly, and maintain the aggro on yourself, this is almost equivalent to having over 1200 HP at level 19. The better you are at those two basic concepts the closer to the ideal HP level you are. To compare, at this point Tankers and Brutes will have approximately 725 HP. All Tankers except Fire, and Inv and Stone Brutes will have access to an HP boost power by that time, which can potentially increase 725 up to 1075 HP. Tankers will have good defenses by then, and brutes will have fairly good defenses.
What this all boils down to is that Masterminds using BG mode, will have approximately the same damage mitigation of brutes and close to the same mitigation as tankers, at least at level 19. Masterminds also have additional versatility, and healing and potentially rezzing powers. Masterminds have good damage output, better than tankers, which is what I am comparing them to. Brutes will almost always outshine a Mastermind's damage output, if the brute can properly build and maintain fury.
AOE coping. AOE mobs are dealt with by sending a defensive attack order against the aoe target. Your henchmen will no longer be in BG mode until that mob is dead. Simple.
Aggro. Maintaining aggro is also simple. Get challenge, provoke, and attack powers. Use them. Do not forget to get all the other cool powers available to you, Your secondary and your Summon/upgrade powers are just as important in a Tankermind build. Realize that you will never be as good at grabbing aggro as a Tanker, but do your best. Grab aggro from your henchmen always. If on a team, grab aggro from Stalkers Corruptors and Dominators when they need it.
Heal powers. If you choose a secondary that has group heal powers, such as dark or traps, you really should get and use the group heal power. Poison's alkaloid is also very useful for Tankerminding. FF and TA characters may want to pick up the medicine pool as well.
Defense or Resistance. Why minimize defense? And minimize to-hit debuffs? Because as a tankermind if you don't get hit and damaged, your henchmen will not attack. Thus to help deal even more with the incoming damage, you will want to Maximize your resistance/damage-debuffs instead of defense/to-hit debuffs.
Goto. While teaming, a tankermind absolutely must control where his henchmen are. Use the goto command, but make sure it isn't taking your pets out of defensive mode. The goto command isn't as important for bodyguards while soloing. Bruisers, I believe, will always need constant application of the goto command.
Again, realize that I am not yet even lvl 20 with this toon. So don't take any of this as gospel truth or anything. 
I don't know why you should completely ignore the pistol attack powers. There is something I find rather interesting about the Thug MM over others. Where the other MM sets give you a lot of powers to supplement/aid your minions, Thugs seems a bit more geared to having the MM actively engage in fighting alongside their minions. It seems with other MMs, you spend most of the battle buff/debuff and healing your minions. Thugs seems geared towards the MM engaging the enemy and using the bodyguard ability. I like that this adds a bit more flavor to the primary set, and it is not a cookie-cutter MM primary with different modeled minions.
At the moment I'm wondering if I'll actually throw any slots into my pistol skills, saving them for my primary stuff plus Dark secondary skills. I can understand if you wanted to maximize your powers, you could do away with pistols, but I kinda want to DO things during a fight instead of clicking the "I win" button and going to grab something to eat. Ok that's an exaggeration, but the fights where I just spam my darkpowered healing, I get real bored, so I like to light up mobs with my guns.
Can anyone recommend a good slot setup for our pistol powers? At the moment, I've got Acc placed in the base slot. And I'm only level 13 btw.
[ QUOTE ]
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
[/ QUOTE ]
I just want to say that some secondaries lend themselves better to using your attack powers than others. */FF and */Traps for example. They don't provide you much else to do in combat so you might want to try out the pistol attacks and see if you like them. For */poison and */dark however, well I'd tend to aggree with you, your endurance and time are better spent with your debuffs/controls.
For example, my robo/dark would never think of getting any personal attacks. Meanwhile my thugs/FF has dualwield on 'auto' to add that little extra umph since FF gets no resist debuff power. With it on auto I can even heal/bubble/issue commands and my guy just turns and shoots periodically('target assist' off of whatever henchie i've got selected). I assure you, it's quite unobtrusive and helpful.
Uhm... none of my thugs are doing Area of Effect damage (as differentiated from cone damage), save for the molotov cocktails on my Arsonist... did I do something wrong? Also, you can't get the empty clips style cone attack until you get the 2nd upgrade power, which isn't until the late 20s.
Also, I have to agree on the pistols thing others have stated... they are most certainly worth taking. One of the few sets where the damage output of the attacks matches or exceeds that of the minions. Also, defenders can't use them 
I definetly like the posting of pictures for each upgrade, though. Its nice for new guys to see what your boys will look like before you get the proper powers.
"...I had a claw/regen scrapper with the search comment of "Yes, I'm a healer. I heal MYSELF". He got invited to a team, and then I found everyone dead in the mission. They expected my scrapper to rez them..."
-Madam_Enigma
[ QUOTE ]
Tankermind
[/ QUOTE ] hehe. Good guide, Monorail. The OP's post is just facts and recommended slotting.
I have to wonder as well about the lack of love for pistols in this guide. Nothing is more enjoyable than your MM and his cronies all poppin' caps at the same time.
There's useful information in the guide, sure, but could the OP please revisit their stance on pistols? You're interjecting your opinion into the guide without a logical reason. That's not very helpful to the newbie Thug MM.
I have a lowbie Thug/Trick Arrow MM - between the Dual Weild pistols and the control that Trick Arrows offers, I have no trouble taking down mobs.
I only took 1 attack for my MM. it left room for things like aid self, and stamina. good guide
There's one reason why I picked up an attack from my primary.
Because it looks frelling cool. 
[ QUOTE ]
There's one reason why I picked up an attack from my primary.
Because it looks frelling cool.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's so much fun running up to someone you've knocked down with Dual Pistols and popping them in the head with the sideways single Pistol. <not evil>
Great Guide Monorail!
Great Guide Monorail!
Great Guide Monorail!
Still a better guide then the one that suggested skipping Upgrade Equipment. Pistols is very much a style choice. What sort of villian are you building, what are the secondaries, any pool powers you absolutely want to have, etc...? I'd say instead that they are an option but by no means a requirment in a thug build.
Something you may want to add. Using Equip Thug on the bruiser and handing him Hand Clap is a lot like sliding up the difficulty of your mission without actually gaining any exp from it. It disrupts your cones and can piss off teammates. MMs already have a somewhat questionable reputation in groups, best not to aggrivate the situation.
Might also want to put a note in on just how to use BG as it still amazes me how few MMs make use of one of their most survival enhancing abilities. Not to mention a link to the number binds for MMs that make life easier for all.
I'm still waiting to see the Thug/Traps villian run by based on the Boondock Saints. It just seems so apt, I'm amazed I've yet to see it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
---------------
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
---------------
[/ QUOTE ]
...and that's where you lost me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. The Thugs MM pistol attacks are without a doubt the coolest thing about the set...and they do pretty good DPS as well. I have all three of them and use them constantly. A Thugs Mastermind (with Pistol attacks) is like having a team of five mini-blasters, one SS/Inv Brute, and one mini-corrupter (I'm Thugs/Dark so I heal and debuff as needed). What a waste to skip your attacks...and boring as well.
[/ QUOTE ]
Same...I have dual wield and empty clips for the fun factor. I can pull with my dual wield, have my thugs hide around the a corner with stay, and bam ownage central. I cant tell you how many times ive gunned down runaways. The knockback factor in pvp is also a wonderous thing. Thumbs down on the no pistols idea.
I got Dual Weild for the one reason of, hey, its there, I want it, screw build concept. I'm a Thug/Dark, I run Assault and attack and heal regularly. I plan on Fitness just so I can keep this mentality through out the whole thing. I want Empty Clips but no room at the moment. I think so far though, I see guy with all the attack powers doing about as good as a corrupter blast wise cause they just throw bullets at the enemies and send the thugs to kill someone else.
[ QUOTE ]
---------------
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
---------------
[
[/ QUOTE ]
And stick to healing only, you blaster wanna-be!
/sarcasm off
Empty Clips is an extremely effective power if used in conjunction with your Enforcers. Even slotted with only one accuracy, Empty clips does a very noticeable amount of damage, and you don't normally pull aggro if you use it while your thugs are blanketing the cone area.
I consider it a personal essential while I solo on relentless.
A build for a tankermind was requested (though the post seems to have been deleted...), so...
This is my current build for Snake Eyes Mike.
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder
---------------------------------------------
Name: Snake Eyes Mike
Level: 21
Archetype: Mastermind
Primary: Thugs
Secondary: Dark Miasma
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Call Thugs==> Acc(1)Acc(3)Dmg(3)Dmg(17)Dmg(21)
01) --> Twilight Grasp==> Acc(1)Acc(5)Heal(7)
02) --> Dual Wield==> Acc(2)Acc(5)EndRdx(9)
04) --> Pistols==> Acc(4)Acc(7)EndRdx(9)
06) --> Equip Thugs==> EndRdx(6)
08) --> Darkest Night==> EndRdx(8)
10) --> Air Superiority==> Acc(10)Acc(11)EndRdx(11)
12) --> Call Enforcer==> Acc(12)Acc(13)Dmg(13)Dmg(17)Dmg(21)
14) --> Provoke==> Acc(14)Acc(15)Taunt(15)Taunt(19)Taunt(19)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16)
18) --> Gang War==> Acc(18)
20) --> Health==> Heal(20)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Supremacy==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------
I don't play him too much at the moment, been working on CityBinder recently. Slotting is as of Level 21, and the only thing set in stone for a Tankermind is the Taunt Slotting.
Future goals are to get Stamina, and fill up with Dark Secondary powers for better control. I will also be working Fly in there somewhere, though at this point I still have my Jump Boots full 2 hours left, and about 30 minutes left on my goldbricker jet pack. The first jetpack from the AP mayhem mission is about burnt out, though I may still have some time left on it. This is why I don't yet have a full travel power. Temp Travel powers make them skippable until later.
Tankerminds work best, I think, if they have an AoE heal, and they should have about three attacks and one taunt power by level 20. I chose Air Superiority for extra control.
I am not the originator of the Tankermind concept (can't remember who is though, do a forum search and extend the time searched to two or three months ago).
The basic tactic of the tankermind is to put your pets on Defensive Follow mode. Park 'em there. Then go crazy and use your attacks and taunt powers. Yup that's right, taunt powers. Why? Because if the attacks damage you, you and your henchmen are much more survivable. Bodyguard mode engages when you put pets in Def/Follow. When in bodyguard mode with four pets, you take one third of incoming damage, and your pets take one sixth.
If you can keep the aggro (with taunts and attacks) and keep your pets healed, you'll have no problems keeping yourself alive. Until you meet AoE enemies. When you encounter an AoE enemy, you must take your pets out of bodyguard (Def/Follow) mode, preferrably by telling them to attack that AoE mob. The reason is simple, AoE's while in Bodyguard mode will overwhelm you. Kill them flamethrowers, Demolitionists, etc. as fast as you can. They should get priority.
This gets a bit difficult when you face an AoE capable boss, but at that point, you should just revert to standard Mastermind tactics. No aggro, no attacks, just support your pets as best you can. Try to split difficult AoE mob spwans that contain Boss AoEers. I haven't run into this just yet.
When you meet up with Mobs Highly resistant to S/L damage (e.g. the stone tankers from the Legacy group come to mind), STAY in bodyguard mode. My first unwilling faceplant was caused by trying to take him down quickly by ordering my pets to attack him.
If you choose to play a Thug Tankermind, Get Gang War at level 18. It'll come in handy with drawing aggro. Your henchmen will attack when in bodyguard mode even if it's just your Posse members getting hit. This allows you to initiate attacks with normally docile Bodyguards, while not taking any damage yourself. And let's face facts, Gang War produces ten expendable Organic Cannon Fodder. I essentially consider gang war to be a very strange sort of pseudo taunt that follows you around, on a fairly long recharge timer.
Now, as far as how to manage your pets with the Tankermind concept in mind... I really suggest you take a look at my CityBinder program. It is capable of creating a full featured bind set, and includes a Henchman control bind creator. This system is based on Sandolphan's MM binds, but has an added feature. You can set up commands to control your bodyguards separately from your non-bodyguards if desired. This lets you take your guards quickly out of BG mode when you see AoE mobs. Since setting this up, I have yet to be hit by an AoE attack while my pets were bodyguarding me. They are already attacking the AoE mob before the flamethrower ignites.
At the least, anybody playing any style of mastermind (except Ironman/petless MM's) needs to use some kind of Henchman control bind. And I definitely suggest you make use of Sandolphan's or my binds.
good guide, very helpful
You have chosen to be a Thugs Mastermind, wise choice
You will soon become the AoE Damage Master if you stick to it.
You will get excellent damage from the Thugs.
Although, when your pets do get hit, it hurts them alot, since they have almost no resistences to anything, I recommend Aid Other.
---------------
I WILL NOT BE LISTING THE 3 ATTACKS PISTOLS, DUAL WIELD, OR EMPTY CLIPS
If you get them, re-roll as a Defender...
---------------
Thugs Description:
Street-wise and extremely loyal to the right leader, Thugs make the perfect Henchmen for a manapulative Mastermind.
The Rouge Isle are a perfect breeding ground to Thugs, and 'street-cred' can go a long way. Thugs are no stranger to urban warfare, and they are quite proficient with various weapons. Most Thugs aren't paticularly resistant to any damage type, but their Lieutenants posses good Leadership *shills to harden all your Henchmen.
*shills is meant to be skills, typo on the Dev's part.
Notes:
As a Thugs MM, your AoE damage potential is pure carnage.
By level 12 you will already have 2 nice Cones and a AoE.
By level 24 you will have 3 Cones
By Level 32 you will have 7 Cones and 5 AoEs
All of those but the Molotov is a good heavy hitter.
--------------------
Pistols - Level 1
Don't get it.
Call Thugs - Level 1
Recharge: Very Long
Recommended Slotting - 3 Damage/3 Accuracy
Description:
Calls forth one to three Thugs (depending on your level) to do your bidding. The third Thug you gain will be an Arsonist. Thugs use Dual Pistols and can be taught additional pistol attacks. You may only have 3 Thugs under your control at any given time. If you attempt to call more Thugs, you can only replace the ones you have lost in battle. If you already have three, the power will fail.
Notes:
This will be your bread and butter up until Enforcers(Level 12).
They will fill in fair amount of extra damage late game. This is the first staple of the set, GET IT!
-----------------
THUGS UPGRADES
No Upgrade - Pistols and Brawl
1st Upgrade - Dual Wield
2nd Upgrade - Empty Clips(Cone)
-----------------
THUGS OUTFIT
No Upgrade - Link
1st Upgrade - Link
2nd Upgrade - Link
-----------------
ARSONIST UPGRADE
No Upgrade - Molotov and Brawl(AoE)
1st Upgrade - Firebreath/w Scourge(Cone)
2nd Upgrade - Petrol Bomb and Ignite-Patches(AoE)
-----------------
ARSONIST OUTFIT
No Upgrade - Link
1st Upgrade - Link
2nd Upgrade - Link
------------------
Dual Wield - Level 4
Don't get it.
Level 6 - Equip Thugs
Recommended Slotting - 1 Recharge and or 1 End Redux
Recharge - Medium
Description:
Equip your Thug Henchmen with better ammo, weapons and training. This power permanently bestows new weapons and abilities to one Thug Henchman. The powers gained are unique and dependent upon the target Thug Henchman. This power only works on your Thug Henchmen and you can only Equip any given Thug Henchman once.
Notes:
This will be your first upgrade, it will improve all your Henchmen's attacks and will give them a couple of new ones too.
Empty Clips - Level 8
Don't Get It!
Level 12 - Call Enforcers
Recharge - Very Long
Recommended Slotted - 3 Damage/2 Accuracy/1 ToHit Buff
Description:
Calls forth one to two Thug Enforcers (depending on your level) to do your bidding. Thug Enforcers carry a Sub-machine Gun, and possess good leadership skills. Their weapon of choice is an UZI, and can be equipped to carry up to 2 at once. You may only have 2 Thug Enforcers under your control at any given time. If you attempt to call more Enforcers, you can only replace the ones you have lost in battle. If you already have two, the power will fail.
Notes:
This will be a main source of damage levels 12-50, Get it.
They will supply a major amount of AoE damage and look cool doing it. These guys are your version of Mafia members.
--------------------
ENFORCERS UPGRADE
No Upgrade - SMG Burst, SMG Blast(Cone), and Manuvers
(SMG BECOMES UZI AFTER 1ST UPGRADE)
1st Upgrade - UZI Heavy Burst, Tatics, and Manuvers
2nd Upgrade - Dual UZI Blast(Cone), Blast Clip(AoE), and Assualt
--------------------
ENFORCERS OUTFIT
No Upgrade - Link
1st Upgrade - Link
2nd Upgrade - Link
Gang War - Level 18
Recommended Slotting - 3 Damage(/1 Accuracy)/3 Recharge
Recharge - Very Long
Description:
Calls a gang of 10 or so Thug Posse to come to your aid for a brief while. Posse are not like your true Henchman. They cannot be given direct commands, nor will they appear in your pet window. You must select an enemy target to attack first before calling these Thugs. Posse are many, but they are very weak, and are only equipped with the most basic weapons. Although they will follow you, they are not as loyal as your Henchmen, and they will only stick around for a few minutes before taking off.
Notes:
I like to call this a single target immob.
You call upon 10-15 minions to help you, each attack they do has a 4 second taunt. Think of this as a killable Phantom Army. You will want to have these buggers lead the battle against a Boss or Elite Boss, maybe a AV. I Highly recommend getting this.
Call Bruiser - Level 26
Recommended Slotting - 3 Damage/2 Accuracy
Recharge - Very Long
Description:
Calls one massive Bruiser. He is strong, tough and has a mean temper. As a Brute, he will generate Fury and deal more damage the longer the combat lasts. His Super Strength powers means he favors hand-to-hand combat. He has resistance to Lethal and Smashing Damage and some resistance to Fire and Cold Damage. You may only have 1 Bruiser under your control at any given time. If you attempt to summon another Bruiser, the power will fail.
Notes:
This guy will be your melee guy, although he is kind of 'bugged' persay, you WANT to get him, he will really dish out some damage when in melee.
------------------
BRUISER UPGRADES
No Upgrade - Punch and Jab
1st Upgrade - Haymaker and Handclap
2nd Upgrade - Footstomp, Knockout Blow, and Hurl
------------------
BRUISER OUTFIT
No Upgrade - Link
1st Upgrade - Link
2nd Upgrade - Link
Upgrade Equipment - Level 32
Recharge - Medium
Description
Permanently Upgrade the most advanced ammo, weapons and training to one Thug Henchman. The Upgraded Thug will gain new powers, weapons and abilities. The powers gained are unique and dependent upon the target Thug Henchman that is Upgraded. This power only works on your Thug Henchmen and you can only Upgrade the Equipment of any given Thug Henchman once.
Notes:
This is the final 'must' power. This will open you to your AoE Damage madness...get this...use this...or else.
Lobster's BI Charts
Permission was granted to use
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
brawl pet bonus attack damage1 mult damage2 mult base bi
THUGS
8.44 thug 0.960 brawl 33.7 1 17.19 2.04
0.960 shoot 31.2 1 15.92 1.89
0.960 empty clips 12.47 3 19.09 2.26
arson 0.960 brawl 33.7 1 17.19 2.04
0.960 molotov cocktail 3.11 16 25.39 3.01
0.960 spit fire 18.35 3 28.09 3.33
0.960 fire bomb patch 2.13 27 29.34 3.48
0.960 fire bomb + dot 31.2 1 1.86 11 26.36 3.12
enforc 0.938 brawl 41.96 1 21.65 2.57
0.938 submachine gun 11.85 3 18.34 2.17
0.938 submachine cone 9.93 6 30.74 3.64
0.938 uzi 13.48 3 20.87 2.47
0.938 uzi cone 11.15 6 34.52 4.09
0.938 exploding clip 37.63 1 19.42 2.30
bruiser 0.914 jab 41 1 21.42 2.54
0.914 punch 60.05 1 31.37 3.72
0.914 haymaker 99.4 1 51.93 6.15
0.914 ko blow 217 1 113.38 13.43
0.914 footstomp 85.28 1 44.56 5.28
0.914 hurl 98 1 51.20 6.07
</pre><hr />