Aim & Build Up Different in the Prima Guide
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2006-06-07 13:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.
According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.
What's up with that?
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That changes based on AT. For instance Scrappers and Blasters do get 100% damage from BU. As for the to-hit numbers, we as players notoriously overestimate the value on to-hit buffs. People were quoting FA (me included) at 33% when it is really 18%. Massive difference.
Basically only a few posts (e.g. Arcanaville, Stupid_Fanboy, Starsman, etc.) should be trusted with statistical stats like that.
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I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.
According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.
What's up with that?
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BU for CoV ATs has been known to be 80% damage boost for a very long time. Only two ATs get a +100% boost BU: Scrappers and Blasters.
I can't make sense of the toHit numbers howver, based on what we think is going on due to Iakona's data mining.
Using Iakona's tables I get that the damage buff from Aim for a Corruptor should be 42.5%, which matches, but that the toHit buff should be 68%.
Maybe they changed the toHit scale for Aim in I7? Iakona has it at 8.0. Maybe they lowered it to 5.0? Or maybe that's just a typo in the guide.
Edit - I am thinking Iakona's sources for the buff scales of Aim are a dev post. There's no indication he found them anywhere in game.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.
According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.
What's up with that?
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I'm still going through the manual carefully, but it seems there is the potential for scale errors in the numbers. For example, power pool defenses have actual quoted numbers, but they vary in strength from AT to AT, and so *cannot* be the values quoted for everyone.
As to BU and Aim, still thinking about that.
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Im a little wary about some of the numbers. Ive heard of typos cropping up here and there.
As for build up and aim being different for each AT, I knew that, but...20% tohit buff for stalkers with buildup? Seems a bit low.
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Im a little wary about some of the numbers. Ive heard of typos cropping up here and there.
As for build up and aim being different for each AT, I knew that, but...20% tohit buff for stalkers with buildup? Seems a bit low.
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But... based on what? 
A 20% toHit boost is actually fairly tremendous. With one accuracy SO it would cap you against everything up to +3, and would put you at 90% toHit on a +4. If you slotted it for toHit, you could cap even +4s and maybe +5 (didn't check that).
For PvP, as the toHitBuff haters will point out, that still exceeds the base toggle+passive benefits of all the defense-based armor sets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
on this note, I went through all the corruptor buff/debuff %s, and it seems A LOT of numbers are different to what's listed in Sherksilver's Hero Builder. While Sherksilver has been known to be missing/inaccurate info in some cases, I was surprised to see so many differences.
eg What is the resistance given by /thermal's shields?
Sherksilver lists as 20% for main dmg types, 10% cold
Prima Guide claims it's 15% for main dmg types, 7.5% cold
eg What is the resistance given by /cold's shields?
Sherksilver lists as 15% for fire/cold
Prima Guide claims it's 9.37% cold, 7.5% fire
eg What is the resist debuff given by Disruption Field?
Sherksilver lists it as a minor -11.25%
Prima Guide claims it's a whopping -30%
There are plenty more examples. Which source is correct, if any?
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Basically only a few posts (e.g. Arcanaville, Stupid_Fanboy, Starsman, etc.) should be trusted with statistical stats like that.
[/ QUOTE ] QFT
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For PvP, as the toHitBuff haters will point out, that still exceeds the base toggle+passive benefits of all the defense-based armor sets.
[/ QUOTE ] Also QFT.
Always, always consider the numbers in the builders suspect. I love SherkSilver's planner and use it exclusively, but the numbers in there are very frequently wrong. I don't say that to denegrate SS in any way - he makes that program and its database updates for free in his free time, and he relies on players to provide him with updates which may or may not be good and which he may or may not have time to verify.
That's not to say you should trust the prima guide 100% either. It has some clear problems (as pointed out by Arcanaville for the pool powers - I hadn't even noticed they reported them that way). However, they also have a decent track record.
Of the two, I'd trust the prima guide more. For now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.
I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.
Is there a listing somewhere of all the AT Modifiers and what they apply to? I'm not finding anything like that in the guide so far.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Is there a listing somewhere of all the AT Modifiers and what they apply to? I'm not finding anything like that in the guide so far.
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Check Iakona's Power Standardization thread in the Player Guides forum. It's all in there. It's a big thread, but it's in there.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.
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So, does Aim have the same magnitude for both damage and toHit buff? (And is that true of the power for other ATs, or is the Corruptor version "special"?)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.
I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.
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Castle, how can the numbers be "accurate" if, in order to get the applicable values, we need to apply another calculation to them--and the guide is missing, not only the necessary figures we need to do the calculations, but any indication whatsoever that an additional calculation is even required? The purpose of a guide is supposed to be to keep us from having to look anywhere else for information. If we can't get accurate figures out of the Prima guide without consulting someone's board guide for the modifiers, then how is that more convenient than just checking a board guide in the first place? And how does it help the people who don't even know they need to look?
And anyhow, that doesn't address the question which was the subject of this thread: Are the values for Aim and Build Up different from what we'd been told they were, if so, why?
(For that matter, why are Energy Melee for Brutes and Dark Melee and Dark Aura for Stalkers missing from the guide update altogether?)
I'm confused about the way you guys listed mez powers. Here's an example from Char in Fire Control for Dominators:
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EFFECTS: 7.95 Fire damage every 1 second for 5 seconds; 100% chance for a 12-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only; 100% chance for an 8-second Hold of 5.96 strength versus players only; Domination—100% chance for an 18-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only; Domination—100% chance for a 12-second unresistible Hold of 5.96 strength versus players only.
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Now, from what I recall, all dominator and controller single-target holds are Magnitude 3, regardless of level, and it's the duration that changes by level. That doesn't seem to match up with your "4.47 strength" in the guide (which is 3 * 1.49, the level 50 mez modifier for dominators). Shouldn't it be the 8 seconds that's multiplied by 1.49, for a 11.92-second Hold of 3 strength?
Also, when you list the "Domination—100% chance for an 18-second Hold of 4.47 strength versus critters only," is that basically a second hold of extended duration applied at the same time as the base hold, or is that value used instead of the base value? If the domination hold acts as an additional stacked hold, does that mean the second portion of the hold will remain on the target after the base portion expires?
Example A: Dominator A activates Domination and applies one unenhanced Char to Boss X. What is the total magnitude/strength of hold now active on Boss X?
Example B: Using the same Boss X, advance in time 12 seconds after application of Dominator A's Char. Is Boss X still held? If not, Dominator B applies an unboosted and unenhanced Char to Boss X. Is Boss X held now?
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Maybe they changed the toHit scale for Aim in I7? Iakona has it at 8.0. Maybe they lowered it to 5.0? Or maybe that's just a typo in the guide.
Edit - I am thinking Iakona's sources for the buff scales of Aim are a dev post. There's no indication he found them anywhere in game.
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The guide is likely a more accurate source than my estimations for Aim/Build Up. I PMed a few devs a couple months back asking if the scales were 8.0 and 5.0 for both powers, but never got a response, so I stayed with that estimate due to a complete lack of any conclusive testing to the contrary. I thought it was a fairly conservative estimate, as it was much lower than any of the other to-hit values being quoted around the boards and planners. Heck, even Arcanaville thought my numbers were a bit low.
It looks like the real scales are 8.0 DamageBuff, 2.0 ToHitBuff for Build Up; 5.0 ToHitBuff, 5.0 DamageBuff for Aim.
It says Spirit Shark has a 100% chance of Knockup. This is hard for me to believe that a power like this would have a 100% value. Please tell me this isn't a typo..
Disruption Field for Defenders is 30%.
I think I can see why we didn't get the "hard" numbers we were expecting with the Patron Power Pools. There are so many sliding scale factors and mathemagical matrixies that it looks to be practically impossible for the Devs to even know which numbers are "hard" and which would require additional massaging on the reader's part. The more they seem to try, the more it seems that the underlying systems are too overly complex for end users' needs for solid numbers. In short, there are very few solid numbers even behind the scenes.
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(For that matter, why are Energy Melee for Brutes and Dark Melee and Dark Aura for Stalkers missing from the guide update altogether?)
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Stalkers Dark Melee/Dark Armor isn't missing. They are listed on pages 38-39.
I do not see Energy Melee for brutes, soo hmmm...
I think even the dev's aren't sure how it works. Seems like no one can remember.
do you mean electric melee? that's the new brute attack set. Brutes had Energy melee at launch.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
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do you mean electric melee? that's the new brute attack set. Brutes had Energy melee at launch.
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No, I mean that in the downloadable Prima Guide update, Brutes' Energy Melee is nowhere to be found. And given that the section is spread across pages and meant to be substituted for, rather than added to, the power listings in the I6 Prima guide, it's unlikely that it was left out because it was already there.
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Disruption Field for Defenders is 30%.
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So then why isn't the /sonic corruptor version 22.5%, in accordance with the 0.75 buff/debuff multiplier corruptors seem to have relative to Defenders?
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Statesman, Jonyu and I all worked on translating the numbers in game to the Prima Guide. There are likely some typos and a transposed digit or two, but most of the numbers are accurate.
I think the pool powers values were all based on a fictional AT with all mods of 1.0 -- so if you apply your AT mod to the values, that should get you pretty close. Oh, and also, all the values are calculated at level 50. So, in many cases you'll get lower values at lower levels.
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How is someone supposed to know the AT mods? They are just listed any old where are they? I mean I know cause I have been reading the forums awhile, but what about newer players or those that don't even pay attention to the forums? I know there are a large % that don't visit them. Buying a guide to have knowledge and numbers is kinda silly for things that should be listed ingame not necessarily the AT mod, but say "X" power gives 1.5% defense and a player may not know and unknowingly slot it.
I've been looking through the Prima Guide and notice that it lists the values for Aim and Build Up differently from how we've been assuming they all worked. We all had believed that Build-Up was +50% To-Hit, +100% Damage, and Aim was +100% To-Hit, +50% Damage.
According to the downloadable Prima guide, however, Build Up gives +20% To-Hit, +80% Damage, and Aim gives +42.5% To-Hit, +42.5% Damage.
What's up with that?